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Yeah, much of Baldur's Gate is left to creative license. If you can describe it and most the audience buys it, you're good.

I ran a TT adventure called Horde of the Dragon Queen which had the Half-dragon villain go through the city in covered sedan chair to avoid a lynch mob. (FR didn't have dragonborn as common PCs until 4E, and that lore hung around.) That made me sit up and think. Unfortunately, the players never got a chance to even be in a position to rip the curtain down.

****

If I were to play a goblin, hobgoblin, drow, duergar, dragonborn or similar, I'd _want_ to be called out on occasion. The conflict and nuance would be why I chose such a character. Now they shouldn't play the same, there's distinction why drow and goblins aren't liked. There'd even be situations where someone's fine with drow but up in arms with goblins. The writers need to get into the heads of individual NPCs they script - and foreshadow!

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Originally Posted by FreeTheSlaves
Originally Posted by Silver/
In my playthroughs where I killed it, it didn't land a single hit. It's weakened and hurt. It's easy to climb up and get advantage on your ranged attacks. It's a slaughter.
The one completionist play-through I did, I climbed up above it to attack and it jumped up and absolutely mauled my party! Two characters down.

For most my play throughs I can't justify attacking the owlbear. My wizard thought it too tangential. My paladin balked on moral grounds. Even my pragmatic fighter couldn't justify risk/reward. BG3 is swimming in magic items and has abundant optional fights, can pick and choose.
The trick is to attack and then hide, since it's dark up there. Don't send your whole party. You've got to play strategic. If you do, though, especially with the absolute grunts being distractions... you will steamroll the owlbear. Two or one melee on the floor since they've got the hitpoints at level 3, ranged up.

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Originally Posted by Silver/
I hate killing the owlbear. It makes me feel terrible every time despite nesting so close to the road. It's not about the cub, it's that it drops a spear part.

I know this is off-topic in this goblin thread, but can’t resist adding to this that I really feel there should be options to try to remove the spear part and heal the owlbear (eg a medicine check after an initial animal handling one to placate the owlbear).

The only reason my druid and ranger characters in particular would have for going anywhere near it would be to try to help after hearing it’s been injured by Edowin, so it’s disappointing that they don’t have a chance to try. And if they failed and it attacked, then at least they could console themselves they’d meant well!

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
I know this is off-topic in this goblin thread, but can’t resist adding to this that I really feel there should be options to try to remove the spear part and heal the owlbear (eg a medicine check after an initial animal handling one to placate the owlbear).

The only reason my druid and ranger characters in particular would have for going anywhere near it would be to try to help after hearing it’s been injured by Edowin, so it’s disappointing that they don’t have a chance to try. And if they failed and it attacked, then at least they could console themselves they’d meant well!
Agree!!!

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Originally Posted by Silver/
I hate killing the owlbear. It makes me feel terrible every time despite nesting so close to the road. It's not about the cub, it's that it drops a spear part.

I know this is off-topic in this goblin thread, but can’t resist adding to this that I really feel there should be options to try to remove the spear part and heal the owlbear (eg a medicine check after an initial animal handling one to placate the owlbear).

The only reason my druid and ranger characters in particular would have for going anywhere near it would be to try to help after hearing it’s been injured by Edowin, so it’s disappointing that they don’t have a chance to try. And if they failed and it attacked, then at least they could console themselves they’d meant well!
Certainly! We need a reason for many good or neutral characters to even get there. If we deduced the owlbear would perish from infection without help, the pressure would be even greater.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Originally Posted by Silver/
I hate killing the owlbear. It makes me feel terrible every time despite nesting so close to the road. It's not about the cub, it's that it drops a spear part.

I know this is off-topic in this goblin thread, but can’t resist adding to this that I really feel there should be options to try to remove the spear part and heal the owlbear (eg a medicine check after an initial animal handling one to placate the owlbear).

The only reason my druid and ranger characters in particular would have for going anywhere near it would be to try to help after hearing it’s been injured by Edowin, so it’s disappointing that they don’t have a chance to try. And if they failed and it attacked, then at least they could console themselves they’d meant well!

Yes, I see it that way too. I've always complained that in the cutscene you can't see the damaged eye with Edowin's spearhead in it.... Healing the owlbear accordingly as a Druid / Ranger would be a logical consequence. You can still get the owlbear cub later, since the mother is killed, if not by us, then by the Goblins and the cub is captured.

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The other cubs have already left the nest on their own, the cub isn't that young. If the mother is healed, it'd be nice if she were able to kill the goblins instead.

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Originally Posted by Silver/
If the mother is healed, it'd be nice if she were able to kill the goblins instead.

Hah! Yes, even if some of the goblins still escaped with the cub to keep that bit of the story the same, it would be good to have the survivors complain that the (fully healed) owlbear killed most of their party and they barely escaped with their lives.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
I know this is off-topic in this goblin thread, but can’t resist adding to this that I really feel there should be options to try to remove the spear part and heal the owlbear (eg a medicine check after an initial animal handling one to placate the owlbear).

The only reason my druid and ranger characters in particular would have for going anywhere near it would be to try to help after hearing it’s been injured by Edowin, so it’s disappointing that they don’t have a chance to try. And if they failed and it attacked, then at least they could console themselves they’d meant well!

Originally Posted by Silver/
Certainly! We need a reason for many good or neutral characters to even get there. If we deduced the owlbear would perish from infection without help, the pressure would be even greater.

Originally Posted by Silver/
If the mother is healed, it'd be nice if she were able to kill the goblins instead.

Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Hah! Yes, even if some of the goblins still escaped with the cub to keep that bit of the story the same, it would be good to have the survivors complain that the (fully healed) owlbear killed most of their party and they barely escaped with their lives.

Sorry for keeping this off-topic but...I love all of this so much!!!

And agree, I feel like something is missing there and being able to heal the Owlbear and/or goblins mentioning whether the cub was found alone or not would be great (especially if the mother was healed)!

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We had a discussion about something similar a while back.

The conclusion was that an Owlbear is a Monstrosity, not an animal, so it has to be treated differently. Monstrosities follow a different reasoning regarding to D&D rules, than an animal would.

Personally i would love something like that...but i guess this will not be the only time we encounter something "off-quest" like this. And giving everything we encounter more and more options might be a little much.

But who knows, maybe larian heeds all the owlbear lovers wink

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Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
We had a discussion about something similar a while back.

The conclusion was that an Owlbear is a Monstrosity, not an animal, so it has to be treated differently. Monstrosities follow a different reasoning regarding to D&D rules, than an animal would.

Personally i would love something like that...but i guess this will not be the only time we encounter something "off-quest" like this. And giving everything we encounter more and more options might be a little much.

But who knows, maybe larian heeds all the owlbear lovers wink

Yeah but everyone has decided to re-write owlbears as animals. Its kind of odd.

Frankly it would be good if you could train and recruit the owlbear cub. I still wouldn't let it around children though.


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Originally Posted by FreeTheSlaves
If I were to play a goblin, hobgoblin, drow, duergar, dragonborn or similar, I'd _want_ to be called out on occasion. The conflict and nuance would be why I chose such a character. Now they shouldn't play the same, there's distinction why drow and goblins aren't liked. There'd even be situations where someone's fine with drow but up in arms with goblins. The writers need to get into the heads of individual NPCs they script - and foreshadow!

Agreed. We'll see what happens when we get to Baldur's Gate but Drow seem to have a pretty easy time of it. It seems like most people would be deeply suspicious of any drow not displaying an Elistraee symbol prominently. And even then . . .

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
I know this is off-topic in this goblin thread, but can’t resist adding to this that I really feel there should be options to try to remove the spear part and heal the owlbear (eg a medicine check after an initial animal handling one to placate the owlbear).
I know this was mentioned several times ... but it still feels odd that any Druid would help monstrosity ...
Even tho they can talk to us. :-/

But there should be an option ...
How would you feel if Larian would turn this into another dialogue trap? Or at least semi-trap?

You would help Owlbear > it would attack you.
Or at least you would need to pass REALLY HIGH persuation check, so it dont attack you.


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
I know this is off-topic in this goblin thread, but can’t resist adding to this that I really feel there should be options to try to remove the spear part and heal the owlbear (eg a medicine check after an initial animal handling one to placate the owlbear).
I know this was mentioned several times ... but it still feels odd that any Druid would help monstrosity ...
Even tho they can talk to us. :-/

But there should be an option ...
How would you feel if Larian would turn this into another dialogue trap? Or at least semi-trap?

You would help Owlbear > it would attack you.
Or at least you would need to pass REALLY HIGH persuation check, so it dont attack you.
No animal handling, because it's not an animal? Also, the Druids are supposed to hate it because it's both owl and bear? Were they created through unnatural experimentation?

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Reading more about the owlbears, they pair bound. Where is the missing male, I wonder?

Oh
"Owlbear musk was extracted from hormonal males in mating season. It was so potent that one whiff was enough to free a creature of enchantments that dazed, stunned, or dominated the mind. A typical pouch contained enough for three uses, weighed 1 pound (450 grams), and was valued at 500 gp. Centaurs were especially skilled in trapping these owlbears and quickly extracting the musk glands.[18]"

Hard to domesticate even temporarily, but...
"A rare few individuals were 'owlbear whisperers', who could somehow placate an owlbear and even persuade it to follow them as a companion or guardian, at least so long as it was fed.[82]"

Is it going to eat the dog
"If ordered not to attack, they could well ignore their master and attack anyway.[19"

Okay, not everyone hates them
"Owlbears found in ruins or dungeons had most likely been placed there as guardians.[6] Gray orc tribes kept such creatures as owlbears as tribal guardians.[83]"

"Elven treetop communities could sometimes encouraged owlbears to lair under their homes, so that they served as a defense at night. Hobgoblins might employ them as war beasts and hill giants and frost giants would have them as pets. In some frontier lands, owlbears might be trained for racing, with bets made on both which would win and which would savage its handler."

NPC magic???
"
A druid circa 1479 DR with a primal aspect could adopt the semblance of an owlbear for their wild shape, as they could many other creatures, though this was no true transformation.[88] Prior to that, after the Year of Wild Magic, 1372 DR, a druid could not wild shape into an owlbear, it being a magical beast rather than a thing of nature.[89][90] Incarnum-using totemists could bind an owlbear avatar to their arms to gain their grappling power.[91]

An owlbear could be summoned with the monster summoning IV spell[92][93] or summon nature's ally V.[94] One could summon an undead owlbear skeleton with summon undead II.[95][96]

With the find minion spell, a wizard could have a loyal owlbear minion. It would not fight to the death, unless commanded or to protect its master. They would not lay eggs, but would hibernate in winter if the climate called for it. Uniquely, an owlbear minion could transform into a regular bear or giant owl once a day for a couple of hours. The wizard master grew a crest of yellow-brown hair not unlike an owlbear's.[97]"

Oh^2

"How the owlbear came to be was a long-running argument among scholars. The mostly widely held theory was of course that the first owlbear was the product of a demented mage crossing a bear and a giant owl.[8][6][4][1] The goal was likely to combine the bear's strength, stamina, and claws and the owl's keen senses, but the experiment was likely a failure, given how bad-tempered and untrainable it would've been.[122] In any case, the mage was most likely killed by it too.[6] Some accounts rejected this notion, but still could not explain them.[3] The oldest elves recalled that owlbears had been around for many millennia and a few fey claimed owlbears had always been found in the Feywild.[1]

In the wake of the Time of Troubles, a new theory was put forward that such creatures as owlbears and perytons were abominations created in past godswars that survived and bred true.[123] In fact, on Toril, at least, owlbears were brought into being by one of the creator races,[124] most likely the aearee."

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Halsin is an owlbear whisperer for sure!🦉🐻

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
I know this is off-topic in this goblin thread, but can’t resist adding to this that I really feel there should be options to try to remove the spear part and heal the owlbear (eg a medicine check after an initial animal handling one to placate the owlbear).
I know this was mentioned several times ... but it still feels odd that any Druid would help monstrosity ...
Even tho they can talk to us. :-/

But there should be an option ...
How would you feel if Larian would turn this into another dialogue trap? Or at least semi-trap?

You would help Owlbear > it would attack you.
Or at least you would need to pass REALLY HIGH persuation check, so it dont attack you.

I feel like it wouldn't be a great trap because the game never actually defines the difference between a monstrous aberration and a fantasy animal. Players could certainly expect to have a dangerous time trying to deal with a wounded mother animal, but if the premise of the trap is that it will behave differently because its a monster, its an unfair, or at least a pointless trap if you either don't learn that information before meeting the owlbear or the encounter does not at least teach you about the distinction in the aftermath.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
How would you feel if Larian would turn this into another dialogue trap? Or at least semi-trap?

You would help Owlbear > it would attack you.
Or at least you would need to pass REALLY HIGH persuation check, so it dont attack you.

I’d be fine with this. I might even enjoy it, though I think I’d prefer it to be possible for at least some characters to avoid a fight (I think other sorts of hard checks could be added as well as persuasion.)

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I feel like it wouldn't be a great trap because the game never actually defines the difference between a monstrous aberration and a fantasy animal. Players could certainly expect to have a dangerous time trying to deal with a wounded mother animal, but if the premise of the trap is that it will behave differently because its a monster, its an unfair, or at least a pointless trap if you either don't learn that information before meeting the owlbear or the encounter does not at least teach you about the distinction in the aftermath.

Yes, I’m not interested in there being a difference in treatment here just because the owlbear is categorised as a monster rather than an animal either, and I also think it’s fine that the game gives us Animal Handling checks to deal with it and the cub already, as it’s such an animal-like monster. But I think it’s pretty well-established that it’s an extremely dangerous and short-tempered creature of whatever kind, so don’t think we should be too surprised if it decides to try to eat us by way of gratitude for helping it.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
if the premise of the trap is that it will behave differently because its a monster
Nah ...

Premise of trap in this context is that you offer player a choice that may seem like easy pick ... but it actually bite them in the ass. smile

Example:
- You want to be straight with siblings ... so you reval to them that you were on that ship ... rather than apreciate it they attack you.
- You saw an opourtunity to gain upper hand agains dying Mind Flayer ... rather than reveal its secrets it takes over your body and eats your brain.
- You are loayal Githyanki so you present the weapon to Kithrak ... rather than thank you and offering help ... he orders you to be decapitated. laugh
- You want to return cargo to Zhentarims ... but you opened the crate ... so rather than get reward they try to kill you.

I just love that kind of things ...
And i really hope we get more ... for example i would love to see some intimidation against Orc leading to "i accept your challenge" and starting non-lethal duel. laugh

Usualy in games we only get options that work ... so deciding to use a skill can never go wrong ... we allways manage to persuate / intimidate / deceive / handle animal /read mind etc. (unless dices screw us ofc) ...
And while i get that it makes sense in DnD game ... i mean it would suck to suceed in diceroll, but fail anyway ...

In perfect world ...
Players would have allways all dialogue skills for use ... but only some of them would lead to desired result. smile
Wrong picks would lead to ... different results, if suceed.

//Edit:
I gues what im trying to say is that i believe that no player should be able to intimidate Town Guard inside full garrison ... persuate King to crown him instead ... or (returning to our case) handle monstrosity to act against its nature ...
BUT and this is the important part!
Every player should have option to atempt those things. laugh

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 25/01/23 08:58 AM.

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I'm fine with choices like that so long as they're things that are reasonably stupid choices. There are times when trap choices are presented in a way that doesn't give the player a way to see the negative outcome coming unless they have a few really esoteric bits of knowledge, or even times when they couldn't have seen the result coming at all, and those tend to feel like just cheap ways to make the player feel dumb. What you describe though is definitely the right way to handle it, though I can see why developers wouldn't want to design too many of those, since most players wouldn't take them and they probably would end up being more work than it's really worth.

Back to our case though, my only issue still is that if players don't know the distinction between a regular animal and a monstrosity, then the choice and outcome verge upon being the cheap sort of trap choice I described.

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