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Does anyone know if Larian is going to stick with the attribute allocation that they have now for release? Or will they allow different systems of doing it?

When I look this up I find mostly just arguments on what's the right or wrong way of doing it. I'm sure there will end up being mods for this in the future.

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From : https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=829734

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Starting Ability Scores. Will we be able to roll for them, or freely assign them ?

Rolling and Point Buy will be available. Source : official FAQ.

Larian said they would implement 2 or 3 ways of determining your starting Ability Scores, so they might allow Free Allocation as well, or variants of Rolling and Point Buy. Source : Twinfinite interview.

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Originally Posted by Accessdenied
Does anyone know if Larian is going to stick with the attribute allocation that they have now for release? Or will they allow different systems of doing it?

When I look this up I find mostly just arguments on what's the right or wrong way of doing it. I'm sure there will end up being mods for this in the future.

Point buy is going to remain important for Multiplayer. Unless they limit your roles like its meant to be done in TT.

I actually hope they do that, limit to one to two rolls, with the ability to choose the best rolls from each set. In a way proper rolls would potentially result in a weaker character if they do limit to just one roll RAW and you can roll as low as a 3 (highly unlikely but possible) or a 5-6.

RAW on rolling.
Roll 4 x 6 sided dice.
Remove the lowest dice result.
Add up the remaining numbers to get an ability score.
Write down this ability score on note paper.
Repeat these steps until you have 6 ability scores.
Assign a score to each attribute on your character sheet.

Then if you really get bad results you can switch to point buy. Tail between legs. haha

or did you mean unlimited rolls until you get the stats you want? I say no.

Last edited by Blackheifer; 24/01/23 08:46 PM.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I actually hope they do that, limit to one to two rolls, with the ability to choose the best rolls from each set.
Why?

There is no reason in Singleplayer, bcs no matter what limitation you create ... people can allways simply cancel creating new character and start again > therefore bypassing it completely. laugh
And as stated few times previously, people should be able to ruin their own game, if they wish to. :P

And in Multiplayer ... i can imagine two reasons:
- Over-powered characters that would piss off rest of the group ... im sory, but if group is uncapable to achieve mutual understanding in this ... i dont really believe that fun times are ahead for them. :-/
- And time that someone can spend in character creation ... i can understand frustration from playing with someone who is rerolling his stats for 7th times ... but i can also understand the same frustration from playing with someone who still didnt decide if he like Hairstyle 12a more than 17b or 24a. laugh What would you do them, give time limit? :P

//Edit:
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
or did you mean unlimited rolls until you get the stats you want? I say no.
Me too ... its wasted time for everyone, just allow infinite point buy and be done with it. :P

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 24/01/23 08:52 PM.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I actually hope they do that, limit to one to two rolls, with the ability to choose the best rolls from each set.
Why?



//Edit:
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
or did you mean unlimited rolls until you get the stats you want? I say no.
Me too ... its wasted time for everyone, just allow infinite point buy and be done with it. :P

Exactly. No seriously. The Host is going to determine the ruleset (90% of the time that's me anyway) - in that case I would choose either of the two RAW methods above to make sure we get through CC quickly an in a way that is fair. With Mods, all 4 players would have to be on the same Mod so, again, in multiplayer you are closer to RAW as there would have to consensus.

But single player. I don't care at all about. it would make more sense to just let people choose the stats they want within the racial limitations of the race they choose rather than obsessively rolling dice to pretend they are getting a fair outcome. Just put whatever. Meh.

Multiplayer provides the greater challenge and forces us to respect the rules more than single player. Them's just facts.


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Obsessive rolling provides a nice touchstone to the original, so I think it should be an option for nostalgia, if nothing else.

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Originally Posted by dwig
Obsessive rolling provides a nice touchstone to the original, so I think it should be an option for nostalgia, if nothing else.

I know you are kidding, but in case you are not - I would say that Nostalgia is much like Sentimentality in that it is the domain of sociopaths and not a good reason to do anything.

If we view existence karmically, as a series of attachments to be shed, then Nostalgia would be at the top of the list of negative attachments.


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Nostalgia is much like Sentimentality in that it is the domain of sociopaths.

Wow, harsh. Or are you kidding, too smile? I mean, I wouldn’t want BG3 to be compromised by over-attachment to the originals, but I don’t think there’s any danger on that front. And some fond call-backs and connections to the original that aren’t harmful in themselves wouldn’t seem that terrible, and I know I’d enjoy them as long as they weren’t overdone. And I don’t think I have sociopathic tendencies!

As to attributes, I suspect I’ll probably continue to use point buy no matter what alternatives are offered, but still think it would be nice to add standard array and stat rolling options to the final game. And if rolling is added, I think re-rolling should also be permitted and don’t think a limit should be imposed by the game on this. If folk want to spend ages rolling for stats, or feel they need to “earn” their balance-breakingly high stats by spending time rolling for them, then I have no desire to rain on their parade. I also have no objection to allowing players to just enter any legal stat spread, based on their offline dice rolls or on nothing at all.

As has been said, multiplayer parties can agree between themselves what limits they want to put on starting attributes.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Nostalgia is much like Sentimentality in that it is the domain of sociopaths.

Wow, harsh. Or are you kidding, too smile? I mean, I wouldn’t want BG3 to be compromised by over-attachment to the originals, but I don’t think there’s any danger on that front. And some fond call-backs and connections to the original that aren’t harmful in themselves wouldn’t seem that terrible, and I know I’d enjoy them as long as they weren’t overdone. And I don’t think I have sociopathic tendencies!


As has been said, multiplayer parties can agree between themselves what limits they want to put on starting attributes.

Well yeah, mostly I am kidding. Nostalgia isn't as bad as sentimentality. Nostalgia is cognition related to past memories of good feelings. Sentimentality is selfish, maudlin, and most often associated with narcissistic personality traits.

That said, I never saw the point of the endless dice rolling mechanic. I think people liked it because it gave a false sense of being lucky - but really in single player - who cares what people do, right? This entire discussion is really about Multiplayer and I think that does come down to what the group (and host) agree to.

However, Larian has an opportunity to set an example for Multiplayer runs as being more conditional on RAW. The rules matter more in multiplayer runs because the rules are there to keep things fair amongst multiple individuals.


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by dwig
Obsessive rolling provides a nice touchstone to the original, so I think it should be an option for nostalgia, if nothing else.

I know you are kidding, but in case you are not - I would say that Nostalgia is much like Sentimentality in that it is the domain of sociopaths and not a good reason to do anything.

If we view existence karmically, as a series of attachments to be shed, then Nostalgia would be at the top of the list of negative attachments.

You got it completely wrong. *Not* being able to feel sentimentality is a hallmark of sociopathy, not the inverse. Take sentimentality away from the game and you're pretty much only left with the obvious financial incentive. A truly bad reason to make a sequel as loads of people very much expect sentimentality in some significant ways in a game that daringly attempts to build on the great legacy of a 25 year old game.

As for your idea of hard-locking people out of re-rolling in the single-player game, it is akin to grieving. The dice rolling graphics already in the game can be used to impose a soft-lock in practice. Simply make the player roll for each individual stat at a time and time would be a barrier in itself. But it would be much more entertaining, capture a bit of the spirit of D&D and a bit of sentimentality of the original series, while not being as frustrating as the re-roll mechanic of the old games which invariably led the players to accidentally clicking past really good rolls as they were generated instantaneously and unlimited.

The only issue I see with rolling stats in a single-player, would be unbalancing your game so much combat becomes trivial and boring. Then again, you can do the same in any game with a difficulty setting - so another way doesn't really account for much.

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There's little point in having attribute scores at all if you can just set them all to 16 or 18, even in single player. All characters will have the same stats.

Rolling is also a bit questionable if you can roll as many times as you want. And you can't really control that in a video game. Unless it's multiplayer and everyone creates their characters at the same time and only gets one roll. Or two rolls, i.e. advantage in character creation to avoid super low unlucky stats.

Point buy just makes the most sense in many ways.

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I find it amusing that you suggest the complaint of "everyone will have the same stats", and in the exact same post, completely seriously and unironically, say that "Point buy makes the most sense" - Point buy, which is the number one root source of characters always having the same stats.

You're free to use pb if you like that. It's boring, restrictive and uninteresting, but by all means use it if you want to. Fortunately, it's already been confirmed that we'll be able to roll, and that there will be that and other ways to generate the actual full spread of ability score possibilities in some way - something which point buy does not, just as a point of order, allow you to do.

Solasta's system is pretty neat, in that it lets you use point buy, but it also lets you roll and does the generation quickly and smoothly, and as well as that, lets you manually input your scores - if you prefer to roll physical dice, or if you're recreating an actual tabletop character. Choice is good.

It should be a given that in multiplayer, the host would be able to set what method the table as a whole, together, uses for generating ability scores; it would be very silly if they didn't.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
There's little point in having attribute scores at all if you can just set them all to 16 or 18, even in single player. All characters will have the same stats.

Rolling is also a bit questionable if you can roll as many times as you want. And you can't really control that in a video game. Unless it's multiplayer and everyone creates their characters at the same time and only gets one roll. Or two rolls, i.e. advantage in character creation to avoid super low unlucky stats.

Point buy just makes the most sense in many ways.

I agree that sticking with point buy helps make sure a character isn’t wildly unbalanced and has a mix of manageable strengths and weaknesses. I like it as someone inexperienced in 5e, as it helps me make characters that work without being OP. Though I appreciate that more experienced players might find it restrictive and boring, I do think its accessibility means that point buy should probably be the default option, with players having to manually select standard array, dice roll, or free selection if they want to choose their stats another way.

But if folk use multiple rolls or free entry to play a character with all maxed stats in single player then it's no skin off my nose. And the fact that someone might skew their game in that way doesn't seem to be a reason not to let others who might like to determine their stats by, eg, physical dice rolls, enter their stats manually if there's demand for that.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by dwig
Obsessive rolling provides a nice touchstone to the original, so I think it should be an option for nostalgia, if nothing else.

I know you are kidding, but in case you are not - I would say that Nostalgia is much like Sentimentality in that it is the domain of sociopaths and not a good reason to do anything.

If we view existence karmically, as a series of attachments to be shed, then Nostalgia would be at the top of the list of negative attachments.

You got it completely wrong. *Not* being able to feel sentimentality is a hallmark of sociopathy, not the inverse. Take sentimentality away from the game and you're pretty much only left with the obvious financial incentive. A truly bad reason to make a sequel as loads of people very much expect sentimentality in some significant ways in a game that daringly attempts to build on the great legacy of a 25 year old game.

As for your idea of hard-locking people out of re-rolling in the single-player game, it is akin to grieving. The dice rolling graphics already in the game can be used to impose a soft-lock in practice. Simply make the player roll for each individual stat at a time and time would be a barrier in itself. But it would be much more entertaining, capture a bit of the spirit of D&D and a bit of sentimentality of the original series, while not being as frustrating as the re-roll mechanic of the old games which invariably led the players to accidentally clicking past really good rolls as they were generated instantaneously and unlimited.

The only issue I see with rolling stats in a single-player, would be unbalancing your game so much combat becomes trivial and boring. Then again, you can do the same in any game with a difficulty setting - so another way doesn't really account for much.


I don't think you know how to read.

I don't care what anyone does in single player. Not my idea. Don't care. never suggested it. You can paint your arse blue and call it Matilda for all I care what you do in single player.

Sentimentality is the result of personal attachment and fear, and is self-centered. Compassion is concern for the suffering of another with an inclination to provide support and comfort. For the un-educated or inexperienced - Sentimentality is often confused for compassion.


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Originally Posted by Niara
I find it amusing that you suggest the complaint of "everyone will have the same stats", and in the exact same post, completely seriously and unironically, say that "Point buy makes the most sense" - Point buy, which is the number one root source of characters always having the same stats.

You're free to use pb if you like that. It's boring, restrictive and uninteresting, but by all means use it if you want to. Fortunately, it's already been confirmed that we'll be able to roll, and that there will be that and other ways to generate the actual full spread of ability score possibilities in some way - something which point buy does not, just as a point of order, allow you to do.

Solasta's system is pretty neat, in that it lets you use point buy, but it also lets you roll and does the generation quickly and smoothly, and as well as that, lets you manually input your scores - if you prefer to roll physical dice, or if you're recreating an actual tabletop character. Choice is good.

It should be a given that in multiplayer, the host would be able to set what method the table as a whole, together, uses for generating ability scores; it would be very silly if they didn't.
Claiming that point buy is the reason for identical stats is what's ridiculous here. You have all the freedom in the world to make any kind of character you envision, just within reasonable limits and a guarantee your character won't be weak.

As for the "if you don't like it, don't use it" argument - I hate Solasta's system. It's not even a system. They just tossed every method in and said "you figure it out, we can't". Choice is not always good. Might as well have to choose whether my Longsword does d6, d8 or 3d4 damage. Sure, if it's single player I don't care what other people do in their games. But personally, I don't have enough self control to not reroll if the first roll sucks, and I don't like playing with weak stats. Rolling 30 times is similar to free ability score assignment and feels like cheating. I would actually prefer point buy as the only option. We could also have a higher point pool, and then you can choose not to use all the points if you don't like every character having the same amount.

And because of multiplayer, balance is important. I don't want to negotiate before playing whether we will all have 18/18/18/18/18/18 stats or something else. I'm assuming the host can select the ability score generation method. Unlike single player, rolling could actually be controlled for multiplayer if everyone rolls their characters together.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Seraphael
You got it completely wrong. *Not* being able to feel sentimentality is a hallmark of sociopathy, not the inverse. Take sentimentality away from the game and you're pretty much only left with the obvious financial incentive.

I don't think you know how to read.

Sentimentality is the result of personal attachment and fear, and is self-centered. Compassion is concern for the suffering of another with an inclination to provide support and comfort. For the un-educated or inexperienced - Sentimentality is often confused for compassion.

Hmm, I may well be “uneducated” insofar as it sounds as though you might be referring to a specific theory of what sentimentality is that I don’t recognise. But the claim that sentimentality is the result of fear seems either substantive and not entirely supported by the use of the term in natural language, or else is simply defining sentimentality in a specific way that makes the claim trivially true. There might be a useful conceptual framework behind what you say that can help us consider the distinction between sentiment, nostalgia, compassion, etc but probably not while being quite so dismissive of others’ comprehension skills or knowledge!

Not that you weren’t a little provoked by Seraphael saying you got it “completely wrong”, and I do agree that sentimentality is not the same as passion or just emotion, which sounds more like what they were thinking of.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Seraphael
You got it completely wrong. *Not* being able to feel sentimentality is a hallmark of sociopathy, not the inverse. Take sentimentality away from the game and you're pretty much only left with the obvious financial incentive.

I don't think you know how to read.

Sentimentality is the result of personal attachment and fear, and is self-centered. Compassion is concern for the suffering of another with an inclination to provide support and comfort. For the un-educated or inexperienced - Sentimentality is often confused for compassion.

Hmm, I may well be “uneducated” in whatever specific theory it sounds as though you’re citing there, but it certainly seems to involve a substantive claim about sentimentality that’s not entirely supported by the use of the term in natural language, or else is simply defining sentimentality in a specific way that makes the claim trivially true. There might be a useful conceptual framework there in light of which to consider the distinction between sentiment, nostalgia, compassion, etc but probably not while being quite so dismissive of others’ comprehension skills!

Not that you weren’t a little provoked by Seraphael saying you got it “completely wrong”, and I do agree that sentimentality is not the same as passion or just emotion, which sounds more like what they were thinking of.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/lifelines/201010/sense-and-sentimentality

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...imentality-the-criminal-basis-more-crime

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2873301


There is a lot more in The American Journals of Psychology but muggles don't have access to that unless you are currently a student and your University covers the subscription or you just like to have a Lexus/Nexus sub. Either way the concept of sentimentality being bad isn't new, and is considered fairly foundational. I.e. it's basic level knowledge. Psych 101 shit. In yea olden days it was very much looked down on to behave that way.

I love how you edited the quote to avoid what I was actually reacting to. *golf clap*


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Originally Posted by 1varangian
But personally, I don't have enough self control to not reroll if the first roll sucks, and I don't like playing with weak stats. Rolling 30 times is similar to free ability score assignment and feels like cheating. I would actually prefer point buy as the only option.

I guess the difficulty here is that you can’t get what you want while others’ equally valid preferences are also met. Like you, I prefer point buy. But I can understand others who want the wilder variation, randomness and challenge that comes with rolling. Or who want to roll with physical dice then enter the results. Or who, as Niara said, want to replicate a table-top character.

It feels as though compromise is fair here, and while I know I’ll also be tempted to abuse any flexibility offered, feel that it’s more reasonable for me to try to impose self-discipline than to prevent others creating (legal) characters.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/lifelines/201010/sense-and-sentimentality

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...imentality-the-criminal-basis-more-crime

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2873301


There is a lot more in The American Journals of Psychology but muggles don't have access to that unless you are currently a student and your University covers the subscription or you just like to have a Lexus/Nexus sub. Either way the concept of sentimentality being bad isn't new, and is considered fairly foundational. I.e. it's basic level knowledge. Psych 101 shit. In yea olden days it was very much looked down on to behave that way.

I love how you edited the quote to avoid what I was actually reacting to. *golf clap*

Yeah, I thought it might be something like that. It’s of course fine for psychology, or any other discipline, to use terms in ways that are similar to but not quite the same as everyday language, and I’d agree the jargon thus established can give us useful ways to think about their subject matter. But however “basic level” that knowledge is within that academic context, it doesn’t necessarily translate to discussion elsewhere. And yes, I am well aware that sentimentality being considered bad is not new.

My apologies, though, that you felt I misrepresented your position by poor editing. I’m embarrassed to admit that I think I just clipped the parts of what you and Seraphael said that put my back up. I will seek to establish zen-like calm and not get annoyed by what I’ve interpreted as unnecessarily snippy and patronising posts on the forum. It is, after all, counterproductive and also hypocritical of me to contribute yet more of them.

So shutting up now, and my apologies to you and all other readers for fanning the flames.

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