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#844961 20/02/23 01:30 PM
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On the Steam forum I read a thread about the question wether a Paladin or Barbarian would win a duel against each other. I think it should be possible to answer it on a statistical level because the possible damages with hit chances per round against what AC on what level should be predictable. Or not? Are there already results of such "Who is the Hulk?" comparisons available elsewhere? It's a bit childish, but ... grin

geala #844986 20/02/23 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by geala
should be predictable. Or not?
Not really ... or at least i wouldnt say so ...
There is so many variables you have to take under concideration.

Builds, equipment, actions ... and last but certainly not least rolls!

I think this is one of neverending nerd discusions ... something like "wich comics hero is stronger" ... in certain circumstances this one, in different circumstances that one ... no matter what scenario you create one will allways have upper hand, bcs they are not the same.
Its like Rock / Paper / Scizzors / Lizard / Spock. (Or its ultimate version.)
There is no ultimate winner. smile

But in the end it doesnt really matter, bcs in most cases, they wouldnt fight each other anyway. laugh

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 20/02/23 05:06 PM.

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geala #844987 20/02/23 05:07 PM
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Wouldn't subclass matter? I imagine a level 5 barbarian that needs low HP to be at their strongest would struggle /if/ the paladin gets to double smite them first.

One must hit the other first, and the one who does is almost guaranteed to win. This is a battle of Initiative

geala #844989 20/02/23 05:24 PM
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Before doing any of the below, my thoughts were: "Almost certainly Paladin, simply because the Paladin has ways of increasing their damage while the Barbarian doesn't."

Assuming each combatant is level 5 with 18 Strength, and the Barb has 16 Con while the Paladin has 14 Con:
Raging Barbarian: Hits and deals 2d6+4+2 = 13 damage.
- Using Frenzied Strike & Extra Attack, they hit 3 times for 39 damage.
Paladin: Hits and deals (1d8+3 or 4)/2=4 damage plus 2d8 = 9 radiant damage for a total of 13 damage (accounting for Barbarian damage res).
- Using Extra Attack and 1st level smites, they hit 2 times for 26 damage.

A level 5 Barbarian will have 12+4*(7+3)=52 HP and ~16 AC.
A level 5 Paladin will have 10+4*(6+2)=42 HP and 21 AC (Plate Armor and Defensive Fighting Style).

The Barbarian probably wants to attack recklessly. With a +7 attack bonus, the base chance is 35%, so has a (1-0.65^2)=58% chance to hit.
The Paladin will thus also attack at advantage, so with a similar +7 attack bonus = base chance of 60%, will hit (1-0.4^2)=84% chance to hit.

Thus, the Paladin using 1st level Smites deals 0.84*26 = 21.8 dpr
The Barbarian using Reckless Frenzy deals 0.58*39 = 22.6 dpr

HOWEVER, the Paladin can also make use of BA spells. Let's say they use Branding Smite, meaning every turn they deal an extra 2d6=7 radiant damage.
- New Paladin dpr is 0.84*(26+7) = 27.7 dpr
The Paladin kills the Barbarian in 52/27.7 = 1.88 rounds
The Barbarian kills the Paladin in 42/22.6 = 1.85 rounds.

ALTERNATIVELY, the Paladin could buff their AC via Shield of Faith, giving them an effective +1.5 AC (roughly accounting for lost concentration and/or going second) and deal an extra 1d8 damage per turn via 2nd level Smites
- New Paladin dpr is 0.84*(26+4.5)=25.6 dpr -> killing barbarian in 2.03 rounds
- New Barbarian dpr is 0.51*39 = 19.9 dpr -> killing paladin in 2.11 rounds.

tl:dr. It's basically a tie, likely coming down mostly to "who goes first" and the randomness of the d20.

mrfuji3 #845024 21/02/23 06:46 AM
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I think if we dont consider magical items .
Or we consider but both can use whatever they want.
The dual wield Dwarf Bear Barbarian will always win ower paladin.

It's impossible to beat that kind of Hp .
60 hp and because he is resistant thats 120.
Every turn he can heal 1d8+4 what i can count as dubble.
Cuz he is resistant.

If i can use magic items with the comfort boots and gnoll mace its even worst .
Every turn 1d8+4+3+1d6 hpx2 this insane with 3x rage .
And of course they naked ac is 18 it isnt bad .


Well its depends on how much lvl we will get.
But if we get multi class and lvl 15 . Thats insane for bear barbarian/moon druid. If we get 16 pure bear barbarian is even better cuz from that point everything every one have disadvantage aganst him.
But if we get just 12 then at that power lvl paladin is way better.

Thats why Bear Barbarian's are all Dm's worst nightmare.
But its really depends in what lvl we got .
Early 1-5 i think bear is winner. After that til 15 lvl paladin wins.

Btw you cannot use branding smite + shield of fate both are concentration spells.

Last edited by ZOZO1006; 21/02/23 07:59 AM.
geala #845025 21/02/23 08:24 AM
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Yeah, this is all a bit white room theory crafting. If we were serious we'd need to establish a whole lot of baselines, like:

- Terrain, this favors barbarian as they have access to survival and on average better stealth. But assuming a fair featureless expanse is in itself not realistic.
- Baseline stats, this favors barbarian as paladin's 2nd best stat goes into Cha.
- Equipment, this favors paladin as they default get chainmail and possibly shield.
- Level, at first level it'll come down to an initiative roll-off as starting hps are so low, and both classes progress a little unevenly giving slight edges at various levels.
- Subclass, berserker is front loaded powerful, if the fight is at level 3, advantage barbarian.
- Initiative, barbarian slight advantage later becomes significant when they get danger sense.
- Spells, one spell that springs to mind is 1st level Sanctuary. This is a fairly reliable way to break rage unless the barbarian has good wisdom. Advantage devotion paladin.

Not even talking about magic items, spells in depth, higher level equipment, allies and role play aspects. It's just too many variables to give a decent answer. I like paladins more, but I'd say barbarian.

I do know that WotC has a master spreadsheet with expected values per level with class features converted into a combat expression, but it's closely guarded. Fans have made various approximations over the years.

Last edited by FreeTheSlaves; 21/02/23 08:25 AM.
geala #845030 21/02/23 10:56 AM
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Well i think it will take a very inexperienced player to not to start with a Dwarf that can have 18 str and 18 con.
Thats the first thing . Well i would still go for eathel's hair and pump up my con take human or dwarf. And take dual wield or polarm master. But polarm isn't implemented in the game yet.

Second the key to win with a barbarian is to exhaust the paladin to out heal the damage with the Bear Barbarian.


But lets take that bad build frenzy berserker.
Currently from patch 8 prone is bugged. But if it would work that berserker can throw on the paladin a weapon and the paladin whould knoked down to prone and prone gives advantage w/o reckless attack. At lvl 5 barbarian's gain extra movement. Vs the half moving paladin .
Yes the paladin can throw a weapon to but there is a huge difference between 1d6+4+2x3 vs 1d3+2x2.

I want to point out something else the dps and survival race isnt favouring both paladin and barbarian.
The winner is Larian's Beast Master Ranger. With 5 attacks unlimited animal companion / frenzy raging boar with dex save prone . He have always advantage and hunters mark is unlimited. And can also dump dexterity to use heavy armor.
Currently nothing can beat the beast master with great weapon master + hunters mark.

geala #845031 21/02/23 12:29 PM
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How's that barbarian going to deal with Sanctuary?

If you don't attack nor take damage, rage drops.

geala #845034 21/02/23 12:56 PM
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Ritual dagger can keep barbarian rage up and Bear can heal in the mean time. Technically you dont need to heal every turn.
but you can throw a water 🌊 bottle around you and use sparkle boots to make the pally suffer.
Lest see hou can survive longer.😈
That in fact barbarian's are not so intelligent but min max paladin is also stupid like an ox.
That doesn't mean that the barbarian can just attack.
This is dnd if you a good at one thing that fight than use everything.
What is not shove and hide or barrelmancy.

Last edited by ZOZO1006; 21/02/23 12:59 PM.
geala #845040 21/02/23 02:06 PM
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Problem is, those options are equally available to the paladin. They could just as easily be the ones in possession of such dagger or boots. Or Abdirak ran off, taking his items with him (as he usually does in my play throughs).

Btw, Sanctuary doesn't require concentration and lasts 10 rounds, that's a lot of ritual dagger usage. I'm thinking the devotion paladin has an edge here, not sure if ancient's ranged ensnaring smite is as situationally useful.

And again, with more variables, we're even less able to compare who comes out on top.

I'm still betting on barbarian simply because of their damage resistance - and in BG3 helmets negate crits, which hurts paladins more.

geala #845041 21/02/23 02:25 PM
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Lest say both of them can have those items still barbarian can heal every turn 1d8+3 minimum and take 1-4 dmg every turn.
But not every turn he needs to heal . And there are lot of aoe effect trowing atuff like bombs grandes acid vial void buld fire ice ect.... Arrows. And barbarian cannuse it twice / turn . He will not run out of rage for 30 turns but the paladin will run out of hp. From those aoe effects .
30 turns is too much. considering that you can see the person and hit it with aoe.

You know that he is not invisible just cannot be target.
But aoe is still have effects. Its even written in description .
Also one time i had a multiplayer play where the paladin used gnoll hammer and he becam hostile from madness cuz he used sanctuary and lay on hands on his turn instead hitting somone.
He was visible just we could not target him.

Last edited by ZOZO1006; 21/02/23 02:27 PM.
geala #845044 21/02/23 03:28 PM
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I'd say paladin wins most fights. Turn one you cast "Command:Drop".

geala #845045 21/02/23 03:47 PM
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I assume everyone think that paladin have advantage on initiative rolls.
This some special build dexadin.
All of you forget 1 thing barbarian have +3 dex to intiative vs 0 or -1 what normally paladin have.

But lets play like this so dropp weapon ok i will trowing my weapon no big issue here.
Then paladin is proned then i pick it up cuz i am not an npc.
Playing aganst Larian's AI and an actual player is different.

I say agan at low level barb wins after lvl 7 i think paladin is stronger til lvl 14.

Last edited by ZOZO1006; 21/02/23 03:50 PM.
Brir #845046 21/02/23 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FreeTheSlaves
How's that barbarian going to deal with Sanctuary?

If you don't attack nor take damage, rage drops.
Only if the Paladin is the specific subclass that grants them Sanctuary. Even so, a barbarian will have like a 35-40% chance to succeed, and will be able to attack 1-2 more times, making it very likely at least 1 hit will go through (~61% with 2 attacks, 75% with 3). Also, the rage probably won't end because the Paladin will have attacked the Barbarian on the previous turn.

But yeah, Sanctuary after a full round of attacking the Barb might be the Paladin's best option.

Originally Posted by Brir
I'd say paladin wins most fights. Turn one you cast "Command:Drop".
Except this takes the Paladin's action, meaning the Paladin can't then attack the prone Barbarian. The Barbarian then gets up on their turn and attacks the Paladin. (Or the barbarian succeeds on the ST, with similar results).

geala #845049 21/02/23 05:19 PM
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Since this discussion took a "barb and paladin in a BG3 sandbox with magic items" turn, one must mention the item to rule them all... WYVERN POISON.

Either the barb or the paladin has it....but not both. Muhahaha.

Oath of the ancients can heal as a bonus action, though. If we're optimizing the paladin, any subclass can smite the barb ONCE as a bonus action.

Of course, devotion can make their weapon magic pre combat and negate any and all physical resistance. Also gaining better hit chance while doing so. Ancients can't, so devotion might be better here? 🤔

They can also bless pre combat. Since we're counting throwables as allowed, might as well go all in? Everyone has haste potions, go, go, go!

geala #845052 21/02/23 05:41 PM
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Command:Drop lets the barbarian drop his weapon, not fall prone.
Sure, if he saves, he'll have the upper hand, but how many barbarians have a 50% or higher chance to win a wisdom save against DC13 or 14?

Silver/ #845064 21/02/23 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Silver/
WYVERN POISON.

Either the barb or the paladin has it....but not both. Muhahaha.
Why not both? There are 3 vials in the game. O_o


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Really? Even better 😆

Brir #845078 22/02/23 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Brir
Command:Drop lets the barbarian drop his weapon, not fall prone.
Sure, if he saves, he'll have the upper hand, but how many barbarians have a 50% or higher chance to win a wisdom save against DC13 or 14?
Ah true, my mistake. For most it'll probably be like a 35-40% chance of success. Hopefully the barbarian doesn't have an extra greatsword/axe strapped to his back :P

geala #845103 22/02/23 12:53 PM
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Interesting discussion. It had to be a fair duel without racial advantages or disadvantages and only with normal non-magical items. Perhaps it's really random, and the turn based combat with initiative is not the best environment for fair duels, I think.

BTW, since a chest once stole my greatsword, I always have two spare +1 twohanders prepared in addition to the equipped weapon. laugh


Originally Posted by ZOZO1006
...

I want to point out something else the dps and survival race isnt favouring both paladin and barbarian.
The winner is Larian's Beast Master Ranger. With 5 attacks unlimited animal companion / frenzy raging boar with dex save prone . He have always advantage and hunters mark is unlimited. And can also dump dexterity to use heavy armor.
Currently nothing can beat the beast master with great weapon master + hunters mark.

You mean in combat against NPCs? Sounds so, although I find a Strength based Ranger boring and onesided, a bit like a Barbarian without the rage mechanic. In a duel against a player? The boar has 11 hp and AC 11, and the Ranger has no resistances against physical damage. Hmm.

Last edited by geala; 22/02/23 01:16 PM.
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