Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Help Tips & Tricks High Level Rogue Gameplay?

Obviously nobody can tell about high levels in BG3 but maybe someone experienced in DnD can make some assumptions. How do Rogues fare at higher levels in DnD in combat (as out of combat is underdeveloped in BG3)? Is it fun or more boring (as the class is not very feature-rich)? Can they be on par with Fighters or Barbarians in damage and usefulness, or are they more a liability than an asset?

I'm asking because I never liked Rogue and never played it in BG3 and have not much experience, but recently I got Astarion in my group at late lvl 4 and it was in a certain way quite interesting. I'm even considering to play Rogue instead of Barbarian or Fighter (because I want to play wood elf and I'm looking for a more Dex related opportunity).

It's a bit strange that you can restealth in combat so easily, because of the restricted visual cones of the NPCs. Is that in DnD too or is it homebrew, and what do you think about it (maybe a link, it's surely already discussed)?

I’m not sure about the rest of your questions, but stealth has been brought up multiple times, eg in https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=844163.

As I have understood it, the main differences between BG3 and 5e that make stealth seem so cheesy are (a) in 5e, perception isn’t directional, but assumes the NPC is looking around them and has hearing, so stealthing just behind someone in heavy armour wouldn’t usually be feasible, (b) only rogues and higher level rangers can hide as a bonus action, so the fact that all classes can in BG3 devalues the rogue, (c) BG3 enemies are often ridiculously poor at spotting attackers from stealth (or from outside range, or on a different elevation) meaning that we can often get in multiple attacks before our characters have to roll initiative, which can make taking an ambush approach disappointingly easy in an immersion-breaking way, even when our characters don’t have decent stealth scores, whereas a TT DM would most likely call for initiative to be rolled and combat to start once the first shot was fired.

I’ll let folk who are more 5e-savvy say whether that’s a fair characterisation of the differences, and comment on rogue progression more generally.

One of stengths of rogues are certainly skill checks (it's quite common for a rogue to get to a point where they can pick a dc 20 lock without needing to roll a die.)

Their in combat usefulness strongly depends on the amount of fighting you do per day. Currently there is no penalty for taking long rests after every single combat. So if you do that, classes like sorcerer or paladin who can burn all their ressources really quick are on top.
However, if you follow the DnD recommendations of having 4-6 encounters each day, rogues are in a quite good spot.
It can be a bit boring in combat since you basicly do the same thing every turn (get in position and then hit something with sneak attack). But since you control multiple characters, I don't think that'll be an issue in single player mode. If you are doing multiplayer (or at some point do actual DnD) and you are a rogue in a group with just full casters or people who multiclass, be prepared to spend most of the combat waiting for your next turn.

The fact is, in most cases you will probably multiclass your rogue to beef up its combat ability, because, well to be honest - no it doesn't scale that well at higher levels. There are lots of options for doing this, most involve Barbarian, but sometimes fighter.

Having said that - the advantages stealth characters have makes sense to me in this context because if you can't sneak attack every round your dps is going to be terrible compared to other classes UNLESS they give you the ability to make different kinds of poisons that are progressively stronger, or sneak attack with the special arrows you find in game.

Basic poison is 1d4 but Wyvern poison is 7D6 - uh...can we manufacture that or other poisons like it? But then, other classes could just use it as well.

The extra Bonus Action BG3 Thieves get, along with the prevalence of available Bonus Actions in BG3, should make a rogue more interesting to play. Dip, shove, feint(?), drink a potion, and all the appropriate magic item-granted bonus actions. But even so, it will probably still be a bit...simple to play.

I mean, you don't need stealth for sneak attack. It can greatly help, as it gives you Advantage = more likely to hit, but you can also just attack an enemy that an ally is next to.

Definitely agree that sneak attack should be applicable to using special (single-target) arrows.

Yes, surely now that the basis has been built, we’ll see something like the Divine Smite mechanic implemented that will let us apply sneak attack damage when any appropriate attack hits. As I know has already been mentioned by others elsewhere .

I think the poison thing has a lot of merit as well. Right now only the Wyvern poison is accurate to 5e poisons. There isn't a poison that only does 1d4 damage.

Wyvern Poison (Injury). This poison must be harvested from a dead or incapacitated wyvern. A creature subjected to this poison must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw, taking 24 (7d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Serpent Venom (Injury). This poison must be harvested from a dead or incapacitated giant poisonous snake. A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Purple Worm Poison (Injury). This poison must be harvested from a dead or incapacitated purple worm. A creature subjected to this poison must make a DC 19 Constitution saving throw, taking 42 (12d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Drow Poison (Injury). This poison is typically made only by the drow, and only in a place far removed from sunlight. A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or be poisoned for 1 hour. If the saving throw fails by 5 or more, the creature is also unconscious while poisoned in this way. The creature wakes up if it takes damage or if another creature takes an action to shake it awake.

Making these limited to rogues would be a good equalizer dps-wise. This should include the saving throws.

No doubt it will get modded in if not.

Also Poisons are only meant to usable with Slashing or Piercing weapons NOT Blunt weapons. So that also needs fixed.

The Rogue is one of the classes that depends the most on his companions, it's damage output depends on it's ability to apply Sneak Attack so, excluding cases like the Swashbuckler subclass, you require an ally (or enemy of your enemy) to be close by, so in a party with all range characters things might get really though. Also, missing the attack is quite unforgiving due to how the ability currently works so you have but one chance alone to apply it.

With the propper rules for sneak attack the ability is way more forgiving and sinergizes really well with multi-class and other abilities; but the current system does not work well (I made a few suggestions on the topic here: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=845743#Post845743 ).

Also have in mind that Assassin subclass is coming and if it works as in DND 5e it could make a craaaazy amount of damage when opening combat. In BG3, my experience so far is that you can do a lot of sneaking with a Rogue and coating weapons with venom, add unavoidable crits + multiclass to that and oh my god...

Thank you for the infos. I read a bit about Rogues in DnD at high level and most comments usually are quite positive, but it's hard to see for me what could be probably transferred to BG3. I also played a bit more with Rogue and already noticed the harsh punishment of misses with Sneak Attack (and I'm playing without Karmic Dice and miss a lot more so) and that it's much better to have another melee char in the party. Does not fit very well with my usual group of Shadowheart, Gale and Wyll. As for the poisons, where exactly do purple worms live in Faerun ...?

Poison, basic is in the TT equipment table, though there's a Con save to avoid it. By memory BG3 reduced wyvern poison to 3d6, but again no Con save.

Mid level rogues get to half incoming attack damage (works best 1 on 1) and evade Dex AOE for no damage. Both these synergise well with traps and common battle scenarios. Not to mention the sneak attack dice keep stacking every odd level.

Note: sneak attack is once per turn, not per round. So the battlemaster Commander's strike, allowing you to attack on _their_ turn qualifies for the dice. Same with Riposte and similar actions outside your turn. Savvy rogue players working with the party can rack up impressive spike damage.

At level 11 they get Reliable talent - and together with Expertise, can potentially break the skill system. OMG, a Cha rogue with Expertise doesn't need to even roll to beat the dialogue DCs. But will BG3 still have 1's fail? In TT, they don't, and if they go this route, the social-savant rogue will destroy dialogues - so long as they can get a single word in.

Probably no point talking about higher level Blindsense or Slippery mind.

I really like Assassin's level 9 Infiltration Expertise where they create alternate personas. Dunno if Larian can implement, but it'd be super-cool creating someone to be in city of Baldur's Gate.

Do you find yourself able to attack from stealth every round so you have advantage? The other part of attacking from stealth (with advantage) is you are doubling your chance to get a crit.

Yes, the misses I mentioned were always from stealth with Sneak Attack, with 17 Dex, therefore I noticed it as a waste. I don't care for misses with normal attacks. But I'm only at lvl 3 now, so I have not much experience or statistically valid data. And it is not a problem of the Rogue especially, so I do not spend too much attention. All classes miss more without Karmic Dices and the casters are hit worse because if they miss it's no damage and one slot less. My last fight against the Gith for example (Shadowheart, Gale, Wyll, my Light Domain Cleric) almost ended badly because of lots of misses, at the end the lonely survivor (my char) had to kill the last Gith with his bow, as all slots were gone. I like it without Karmic Dices, the AI fares better this way.

Agreed. I also play without Karmic dice as well. You get a much more random experience. Frankly default for KD should be off. Maybe that will be part of a higher difficulty setting.

So are you going Weapon Master to grab Heavy crossbow plus 18 dex or hand crossbows to take advantage of the extra ranged attacks?

That should be the best and most effective way. But I will choose medium armor instead because I like to wear a metal helmet against crits and I also have a sentimental relation to shields.

I think that Karmic Dice should be enabled by default because it makes the game faster and more manageable for the player (who can deal better with the higher damage and use the many gadgets of the game to his/her advantage), it also makes the out-of-combat rolls more meaningful (perhaps rolling a 2, 3, 2, 4 in a row and failing to open a lock as alleged master thief does not make the biggest sense for non-DnD people).