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#846229 03/03/23 07:27 PM
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I just wonder if anyone else thinks that stealth is so over powered that ruins the game?

I mean I can make an archer and use stealth and kill every thing in the game so far at level 1, and never bother to use any other skills or even rest for that matter.

Also wondering if the devs are going to do anything about it as well

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Yes, I think it is a bit OP but I don't think it ruins the game.

Usually in RPGs there are certain builds that outperform others, but for this type of game specially I don't see a problem with that because:

-A big part of the enjoyment of the game is based on making that build you want to work, like for example: let's make the party with the most familiar/pets/minions possible; or a full martial classes party, no spells or arcana proficiency bullshit.
-The narrative is key. Look at my name, I love sneaking an surprising enemies, but most of the time if you start battles with surprise you lose dialogues and all that, so I usually don't do it that much.
-Even games based on the "fame" of it's difficulty usually have OP builds that simplify the game a bunch like Dark Souls / Elden Ring.
-That you find an OP build that simplifies the game is not crazy, you've joined the early access of an RPG 3 years ago. This games are developed for people that will replay it but also for people that this might be their first approach to an RPG, so there is nothing wrong to give tham a more accesible playstyle, sneaking around is a low risk approach.
-Here in the forum i've found some post of people asking to make some encounters easier because they can't find a way to resolve them, I haven't had that problem but here it's a someting to have in mind.

Anyway, how do you resolve it?

-Let's say we make stealth a bit more difficult because enemies move around more, or have a wider perspective. But, the game has a reload mechanic, people that want to do stealthy kills will do it anyway, it's just more inconvenient.
-We tuned down the benefits of sneaking around. No surprise rounds, or advantages... that's going against 5e rules, which there is no problem in that but it's kinda weird to me, also because enemies can surprise us too, so we would be making some encounters easier.


I think that from my point of view the most important thing is that, this isn't a hard game whether you stealth kill or not, there is no gratification because you were able to beat the game. It's more of a game that rewards you (with fun) for being curious and creative, beating it doesn't mean anything.


As an example to this is the D:OS2 build of running around with a heavy object with telekinesis and one-shotting everything. I never used that, now, did it ruin the game in general for people? Nope, some people did it, and had a lot of fun because they like to do those types of things but it didn't affect the enjoyment of the game in general.

It's an RPG, we can choose how we want to play it.

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Nah, its fine


In the words of the senior NCO instructor at cadet battalion:
“If you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying. And if you got caught you didn’t try hard enough!”
Cafe #846247 03/03/23 10:02 PM
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I don't believe it's OP, I believe it's a broken system. I try to avoid using stealth in my playthroughs - it rarely results in a coherent gameplay.

Cafe #846250 03/03/23 11:04 PM
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Over-powered implies that it exists within the game system and functions as a part of it, but is just too strong of general balance - Stealth is not OP, but rather it is completely busted to the point of eliminating the rest of the game system in its entirety. You can't really use stealth and feel like you're legitimately playing the game, at the moment, because it's functionally game-sanctioned cheating in any encounter.

You can't actually play with and use Stealth as a legitimate mechanic in the game, or work that into your play style in encounters and situations where it is appropriate, because it's such a broken system; there is no 'gameplay' to be had, but rather the personal question f "Do I stealth this encounter" where you either do, and the encounter is eliminated with no danger and no risk, and no chance of failure... or you don't, and you play the game without it. If you want to play with an actually functional and meaningful stealth system, you can't.

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If you guys think is OP now, just wait for multi-class and rogue's Assassin subclass with guaranteed crits on hits against surprised enemies eek


I don't think is that bad, I'm pretty sure most people would have to tinker around for a while to make it work as well as you guys imply, at least in the big encounters. I mean, I killed Auntie Ethel in her lair with stealth without letting her act and with her maintaining her mask companions alive, I cheesed it hard, but I don't know, I don't really find a problem in that because I had to do a bit of set up.
It feels like when people complains about games being too easy, yet they spent two hours looking guides on how to properly build their characters.

Thing is, we can argue if it's okay or not, what I think is a bit more meaningful if we at least suggest solutions.

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Originally Posted by SneakyHalfling
I don't think is that bad, I'm pretty sure most people would have to tinker around for a while to make it work as well as you guys imply, at least in the big encounters.
I have written on stealth on length so I don't want to recount my experiences in detail once again. In short, I have less issue of the system being exploitable to the point of breaking the game (it is a major flaw of the system, but I can just not do it), but that stealth just doesn't work well for sneaking around normally/ambushing enemies.

The suggestions I supported in the past are as follows:

Add hearing circle so one can't Metal Gear stuff while being horrible in stealth and weaking heavy armor.
Make everyone in vacinity join combat when combat is initiated, no matter if they were spotted or not.

That, I think, should give us a functional system.

There is of course the problem of reigning in exploits (like attacking enemies from distance without triggering combat) but I haven't engaged with this system in many patches, I will allow others to chime in.

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Stealth is one of those subjects that comes up here over and over again, see eg https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=844163 for a relatively recent discussion, but there have been many more.

It possibly even warrants a mega thread, and if there’s popular demand I’d have a go collecting some of the stealth feedback into one place.

I’ve said my own piece on stealth more than once, I know, but in summary I think stealth at the moment is a combination of overpowered (hide as a bonus action), broken (multiple issues with triggering combat from stealth) and somewhere between the two (restricted sight cones).

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Well, both Wormerine and Niara made basically the same point I was thinking reading the title, so just count this as a +1 for "stealth is currently broken rather than OP".

And the idea that you can keep moving around a "battle arena" in real time when there's a turn-based combat going on remains singularly awful.
Without even going into LOS exploits, aggro reset, remaining undetectable after striking and other similar crap.



...Not sure what is even going on in this thread, on the other hand.

Last edited by Tuco; 04/03/23 03:00 AM.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Well, both Wormerine and Niara made basically the same point I was thinking reading the title, so just count this as a +1 for "stealth is currently broken rather than OP".

And the idea that you can keep moving around a "battle arena" in real time when there's a turn-based combat going on remains singularly awful.
Without even going into LOS exploits, aggro reset, remaining undetectable after striking and other similar crap.



...Not sure what is even going on in this thread, on the other hand.
+1
Also, when in combat, if I went stealth mode and succeed, the enemy AI don't even know where to check. There should be at least an "alert" state for enemy's AI which if got attacked should enlarge the enemies' "see" radio into a large circle area instead of the default conical area.

Cafe #846287 04/03/23 03:22 AM
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+1 for a balanced version of stealth to be in the game so that I can play a stealthy character without:
a.) feeling like I'm cheesing the game
or
b.) requiring me to personally decide when to e.g., unstealth myself because "it's reasonable that, with balanced stealth mechanics, enemies would have seen me by now."

Also, this thread doesn't seem the appropriate place to discuss grievances with a mod. Even if you can't reply to their pm, there are better places to discuss it such as creating a separate dedicated thread (maybe in the General section of the forum, or in the Section: About this Website: For problems and issues about this website)

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I would like a mega-thread with suggestions on how to improve it. Can I help in making that possible?

+1 on changing Hiding to cost an action, I have trouble understanding why they choose to make it cost a bonus action, maybe to mitigate the absence of quarter/half cover?

+1 Entering turn based combat when someone attacks: when one of your teammates enter combat I don't think others should enter combat too, but you should enter turn-based mode as by 5e rules, every round is supposed to be 6 seconds in game time, so if not your kinda doing Max Payne's bullet time.

+1 Chequing things not triggering combat properly: There are a bunch, specially when doing range attacks, they feel more like bugs than design choices though.

+1? Involving sound: I don't think this one is that hard to implement, it might be tricky to properly show the player but could be cool, should be balanced with the range attackers because this will affect melee specially. The cool thing is that it might help specially with "invisibility", because now it's super strong.
Some creatures could have better or worse hearing also, as in owls in DnD among many other creatures:
Keen Hearing and Sight. The owl has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or sight.
Could also bring into play using Silence spell more, making the choice of changing armor for an encounter, seems fun.


With those changes stealth will still be really powerful, but will feel less as an exploit and there are many more probably.

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Originally Posted by SneakyHalfling
I would like a mega-thread with suggestions on how to improve it. Can I help in making that possible?

Thanks!

The most time-consuming part of it would be finding threads where stealth has been discussed before, so folk don’t have to repeat themselves. I can merge threads or (I think) move individual posts from one thread to another, as well as move threads to different forums.

If I have some time tomorrow I’ll take a look, but in the meantime if anyone else can recall or can find specific threads where there was some good discussion, then it would be helpful if you can pop links to them here to get us started.

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How to improve?
1. Implement actions closer to 5e
2. Improve AI so they do a thorough search
3. Fix broken code- like attacking an enemy and combat is never started.

There is also a difference between solo/full party stealth and typical party play.
After watching too much TY DnD (lol): have the rogue attack and try to hide.. and the enemies mostly ignore the rogue to focus on the Barb and Paladin in front of them is fine.

But-
Rogue attacks then hides, then the AI stands there saying "ill get you, you cant get away" and does nothing, then the rogue attacks and hide.rinse and repeat is not a fun game imo. Hence i save sneaking for out of combat

Niara #846372 04/03/23 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Niara
Over-powered implies that it exists within the game system and functions as a part of it, but is just too strong of general balance - Stealth is not OP, but rather it is completely busted to the point of eliminating the rest of the game system in its entirety. You can't really use stealth and feel like you're legitimately playing the game, at the moment, because it's functionally game-sanctioned cheating in any encounter.

You can't actually play with and use Stealth as a legitimate mechanic in the game, or work that into your play style in encounters and situations where it is appropriate, because it's such a broken system; there is no 'gameplay' to be had, but rather the personal question f "Do I stealth this encounter" where you either do, and the encounter is eliminated with no danger and no risk, and no chance of failure... or you don't, and you play the game without it. If you want to play with an actually functional and meaningful stealth system, you can't.

What a very good way of putting it and just how I felt.

I can sneek up, shoot something and go back to sneeking and the target if still alive does not even take any action. Rince and repete, no targets move even if things are dying right in frount of them. So it concerns me because its lazy programing or its so broken it can't be fixed and be reasonable at the same time.


I brought this up because I belive that sneeking is a very core function that needs to work correctly and should be high on the list of stuff that get fixed BEFORE release.

Otherwise it going to be left to the modders to fix just like several other things that I will not bring up at thie time.

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Originally Posted by SneakyHalfling
I would like a mega-thread with suggestions on how to improve it. Can I help in making that possible?

+1 on changing Hiding to cost an action, I have trouble understanding why they choose to make it cost a bonus action, maybe to mitigate the absence of quarter/half cover?

I actually agree with this. Only the Rogue should have Bonus action Hide. By giving everyone Bonus Action Hide it reduces the power of the rogue.

Originally Posted by SneakyHalfling
+1 Entering turn based combat when someone attacks: when one of your teammates enter combat I don't think others should enter combat too, but you should enter turn-based mode as by 5e rules, every round is supposed to be 6 seconds in game time, so if not your kinda doing Max Payne's bullet time.

Also a big yes on this. However, only if the characters are on the same map or within a reasonable distance - if you are off doing your own thign and are not getting involved there is no reason to be put into turn based mode.

Originally Posted by SneakyHalfling
+1 Chequing things not triggering combat properly: There are a bunch, specially when doing range attacks, they feel more like bugs than design choices though.

+1? Involving sound: I don't think this one is that hard to implement, it might be tricky to properly show the player but could be cool, should be balanced with the range attackers because this will affect melee specially. The cool thing is that it might help specially with "invisibility", because now it's super strong.
Some creatures could have better or worse hearing also, as in owls in DnD among many other creatures:
Keen Hearing and Sight. The owl has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or sight.
Could also bring into play using Silence spell more, making the choice of changing armor for an encounter, seems fun.


With those changes stealth will still be really powerful, but will feel less as an exploit and there are many more probably.

Sound is already accounted for. If you are wearing armor that doesn't cause disadvantage on stealth checks then stealth assumes you are being quiet and your stealth check partially involves your success there.

I think the main change to make it more in line with 5e rules is to set the vision areas properly based on the capacities of the NPC/Monster. Vision is 360 in a combat situation but NOT in a non-combat situation. A guard could be distracted, staring ahead and not looking around, but once combat starts you are always looking around.

This is a harder change to make as you have to account for every single creatures actual vision capacity and range and then make it 360 degrees. Darkvision has to be accounted for and also Blindsight. This is a much larger project than it may seem.

However, the other two changes would make a huge difference in regards to Stealth not being abused by non-rogues.


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I honestly feel like stealthing in the game is pretty broken. However, I'm a big fan of self policing in D&D. When it comes to doing broken things in single player video games, I personally don't see a need for the game developers to step in on every one of them. I don't see things like this as a high or even mid priority for a game developer to address.

My reasons for thinking that way are this:
1) Again, self policing. If it's something you feel breaks the game, just don't do it. Or do it in a way that makes sense to you. Such as *I will attack, then quickly take off around to the side, stealth and have one of my teammates distract themwhile I slip away*. A bit of a cheesy example, but I think it makes sense.

2) Some people like to break the game or feel godly. I used to give an old friend grief about how he used cheats in GTA. But eventually, as I got older, I realized that he works between 40-50 hours a week at a job he doesn't want to do, amoung other RL duties that need to be done. Why not let him have fun however he wants to have fun. It's a single player / noncompetitive game.

So even though, I do feel like the stealth is broken. It wouldn't bother me either way if it was changed or not tbh.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by SneakyHalfling
+1 Entering turn based combat when someone attacks: when one of your teammates enter combat I don't think others should enter combat too, but you should enter turn-based mode as by 5e rules, every round is supposed to be 6 seconds in game time, so if not your kinda doing Max Payne's bullet time.

Also a big yes on this. However, only if the characters are on the same map or within a reasonable distance - if you are off doing your own thign and are not getting involved there is no reason to be put into turn based mode.

Yeah 100%, as you said, same map or within a reasonable distance.

Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by SneakyHalfling
+1? Involving sound: I don't think this one is that hard to implement, it might be tricky to properly show the player but could be cool, should be balanced with the range attackers because this will affect melee specially. The cool thing is that it might help specially with "invisibility", because now it's super strong.
Some creatures could have better or worse hearing also, as in owls in DnD among many other creatures:
Keen Hearing and Sight. The owl has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or sight.
Could also bring into play using Silence spell more, making the choice of changing armor for an encounter, seems fun.


With those changes stealth will still be really powerful, but will feel less as an exploit and there are many more probably.

Sound is already accounted for. If you are wearing armor that doesn't cause disadvantage on stealth checks then stealth assumes you are being quiet and your stealth check partially involves your success there.

I think the main change to make it more in line with 5e rules is to set the vision areas properly based on the capacities of the NPC/Monster. Vision is 360 in a combat situation but NOT in a non-combat situation. A guard could be distracted, staring ahead and not looking around, but once combat starts you are always looking around.

This is a harder change to make as you have to account for every single creatures actual vision capacity and range and then make it 360 degrees. Darkvision has to be accounted for and also Blindsight. This is a much larger project than it may seem.

Disclaimer: I don't think is that important and might be a bit convoluted but just to be clear on what I meant:

In this short video I sneak up on an enemy with armor that gives disadvantage as I show, with it I can still sneak around him, even jump next to him.



When sneaking the stealth roll is only rolled if you fall into the cone of vision of the enemy.

I've made this quick image on a method that might be useful, adding a hearing circle and a noise produced ONLY when sneaking.

[Linked Image from wolkestudio.com.ar]

If the two circle touch/merge, a stealth roll is made.

If you aren't using armor that gives disadvantage you don't "produce" noise. One could make a system where your dexterity modifier makes your circle smaller, but the general idea is, if you want to go past a enemy, remove your armor and if you want to gank on him with an attack, you at least give up some AC unless you invest some hefty points in dexterity.

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Originally Posted by SneakyHalfling
I've made this quick image on a method that might be useful, adding a hearing circle and a noise produced ONLY when sneaking.

[Linked Image from wolkestudio.com.ar]

If the two circle touch/merge, a stealth roll is made.

If you aren't using armor that gives disadvantage you don't "produce" noise. One could make a system where your dexterity modifier makes your circle smaller, but the general idea is, if you want to go past a enemy, remove your armor and if you want to gank on him with an attack, you at least give up some AC unless you invest some hefty points in dexterity.
I think two circles in an overdesign. I think you either want to have your pc "ping" characters within the vacinity (think: Mark of the Ninja - I think it would be good, if for example different actions were to produce different amount of noise: so smaller ping when walking, larger one when making a jump, perhaps even bigger is casting a spell/attacking.

I think it is too much granuality, and simple enemy hearing range would suffice - if character enters it, they make stealth check - with disadvantage if they are wearing armor. hearing range is shorten then vision cone and isn't hampered by light. That would be distinction enough.

Edit. I would even go so far, as to question what value does vision cone bring to the game. I get what Larian is going for, trying to make stealth more interactible than its heavily abstracted table-top version, but I don't think it's working particularly well. I don't think act of navigating past vision cones is enjoyable - real-time is unresponsive and pathfinding unreliable, in turn based there isn't quite enough reactivity to make it proper stealth turn based experience, and turn-based and real time at the same time completely breaks it, not to mention how unpleasantly messy it is.

If everyone got smaller "detection" circle range would anything of substance was lost? Or perhaps make it like PoE2 where stealthing from the front is just harder (perhaps use lighting system, and just make it part of the circle). I feel like based on what we have seen Larian didn't manage to capitilise on the way they implemented stealth so far, and a simpler, easier to figure out, interact with, and harder to exploit system would be a better fit.

Last edited by Wormerine; 05/03/23 10:59 PM.
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