Larian Banner: Baldur's Gate Patch 9
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 6 of 11 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 10 11
Joined: Oct 2021
Z
Jhe'stil Kith'rak
Offline
Jhe'stil Kith'rak
Z
Joined: Oct 2021
Originally Posted by Bardhuk
Originally Posted by The Red Queen
As a woman who enjoys playing female characters in RPGs, my enjoyment would be totally scuppered if my character had to deal with the sorts of limitations and sexist behaviour that would entail.


Obviously IRL you act instinctively as a woman and while playing as woman as well, you want to be unlimited in your actions and not to be harassed. It's not fair for me as a man IRL, to not have the option to play a woman where she's constantly being seduced, or any male Npc is not scripted to flirt with my character after I undress her or put some revealing clothes on her.


Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
Volunteer Moderator
Offline
Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
Originally Posted by fylimar
This is a thread about representation

Spot on. I am not sure why it has recently been resurrected after coming to a natural close in early January, given the new posts don’t seem to be adding anything new to the debate, but if we are going to reopen the discussion let’s keep it on topic.

Originally Posted by Bardhuk
It's not fair for me as a man IRL, to not have the option to play a woman where she's constantly being seduced, or any male Npc is not scripted to flirt with my character after I undress her or put some revealing clothes on her.

@Bardhuk, you already started a thread a week or so ago to discuss your suggestions for inclusion of more sexualised content for women PCs. Please don’t try to reopen that debate elsewhere on the forums, especially by taking months old quotes out of context. Plus repeated posts on a single issue in different places just look like trolling, especially when noone else has shown a particular interest.

No more replies to this thread, please, unless anyone actually has anything new and constructive to contribute to the discussion of gender identity in the game.


"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
Joined: Feb 2023
B
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
B
Joined: Feb 2023
Originally Posted by The Red Queen
@Bardhuk, you already started a thread a week or so ago to discuss your suggestions for inclusion of more sexualised content for women PCs. Please don’t try to reopen that debate elsewhere on the forums, especially by taking months old quotes out of context. Plus repeated posts on a single issue in different places just look like trolling, especially when noone else has shown a particular interest.

If someone will answer me and will show further interest to discuss this topics, it will be a sign of disrespect from me to not to continue. I'm polite and I don't think i offend anyone by expressing some suggestions or preferences.

Joined: Feb 2023
B
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
B
Joined: Feb 2023
Originally Posted by fylimar
Can you stop your blatant sexism already? This is a thread about representation, not your personal fetish!

Sorry

Joined: Jan 2023
S
old hand
Offline
old hand
S
Joined: Jan 2023
Originally Posted by Bardhuk
Originally Posted by The Red Queen
@Bardhuk, you already started a thread a week or so ago to discuss your suggestions for inclusion of more sexualised content for women PCs. Please don’t try to reopen that debate elsewhere on the forums, especially by taking months old quotes out of context. Plus repeated posts on a single issue in different places just look like trolling, especially when noone else has shown a particular interest.

If someone will answer me and will show further interest to discuss this topics, it will be a sign of disrespect from me to not to continue. I'm polite and I don't think i offend anyone by expressing some suggestions or preferences.
Sure. This thread is about a hyper specific topic, though. It usually received bad faith attacks from people sexualising the concept of being a woman. E.g. stating that even drag is inherently sexual and harmful for existing.

I don't think you meant to go in that direction. But, I hope you understand why it looks like trolling. There is another thread discussing if BG3 is too sexual/romances have the wrong focus. You can demand more sexualisation there. It is discussing whether the game should have such things in it or not.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=842016&page=1

Joined: Jun 2012
Brainer Offline OP
enthusiast
OP Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2012
Oh. Have been away from the forum for a while, and thought the thread'd just died down back in January indeed.

I am not sure as to how the whole fetish-ey sexist tangent or whatever it was ended up being raised, but I suppose the very fact that the discussion got suddenly reanimated is somewhat encouraging what with how tectis23's rant in the General forum from a month or so ago got quickly nipped in the bud, although some people there tried to be more or less reasonable and/or constructive with their comments. The tone of the OP was not exactly in any way contributing to a civil discussion, though.

I did see the release date reveal trailer, and had a mixture of hope and - pardon the term - cringing from seeing the "body type" option in the character creation menu. On one hand, it could just be every body build lumped together, same as the voices, so it's a selection of male and female bodies of different bulk (maybe even more than just standard/muscular - perhaps we'd have skinny characters too?), just on a single selector (although the fact that there's still these awful selectors instead of an easily readable grid of options sure makes me worried about the character creation UI in the full game)... or it could just be this post-modern euphemism for gender/sex yet again. Elden Ring having the players select their "body type" but immediately gendering them in the first cutscene in the game and locking voice options to it says a few things as to the degree of the frankly pointless charade that's being put on all for the sake of "inclusive" language...

...Some people would always find other things to be offended by - like how people would see the portrayal of elves from Larian's previous game (guess which one) as a Native American caricature, or how the gith are an Asian one. Sure doesn't stop them from slobbering over Astarion and his racist, sadistic arse, though - speaks volumes to the degree of hypocrisy on display (and shows how it's enough for a character to be a pretty twink boy to be forgiven for the modern cardinal sins. Were he not attractive, I imagine he wouldn't have gotten the pass).

Joined: Jan 2023
S
old hand
Offline
old hand
S
Joined: Jan 2023
If nothing else, brainer, "male" body types for "female" heads is a sure fire way to avoid boobplate.

If you imagine your character flat chested, tall and stocky, the "splint plate +2" male model is just better. I might do this myself without creating a trans character if a muscular build for women doesn't really exist. I will be skipping potential sex scenes, anyways. Whatever other impact it may have, is nonexistent for me.

Of course... it should also be possible to download a mod with a custom build. Enjoy the one singular armour that doesn't glitch out on it. Probably has colour variety. Also a good option, since +2 armour will never /need/ changing.

https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/3474/images/thumbnails/58/58-1603895008-1707345341.png

https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/3474/images/thumbnails/58/58-1603894335-276166066.png

https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/3474/images/thumbnails/58/58-1603894359-1713357090.png

Joined: Jun 2012
Brainer Offline OP
enthusiast
OP Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2012
Originally Posted by Silver/
If nothing else, brainer, "male" body types for "female" heads is a sure fire way to avoid boobplate.
I don't mind it all that much if it's not a setting that had from the outset gone for the realistic look for the equipment (Eora (Pillars) is an example, the plate armours in 2 are a joy to look at). However, my first foray into FR was Neverwinter Nights, and that has Aribeth in her, erm, plate bodice? Armor dress? Whatever the term for it is. Point being, it's not something that I find that repulsive aesthetically. It did remind me of that one time Larian had self-censored the D:OS1 cover art after there were complaints about it, though - didn't really stop them from cramming D:OS2 full of fanservice-ey armors and outfits later on, but still.

Since you mentioned sex scenes, and given some of the datamined visuals and what my experimentation (described in the opening post) has revealed, I have a theory that, well...

...the identity selector may or may not dictate (urgh) which anatomy the character comes equipped with in the nether regions, since it's the identity that the scene version choice is based on.

I am not really sure as to what the connotations of that are supposed to be, or if it'd trigger the people it's targeted at. It'd run contrary to the tenets of the gender, no? Afraid I am hardly an expert on the subject, what with finding the concept flawed at the core and devoid of objectivity. Otherwise you're getting scenes which are even jankier than they are now (unless Larian are taking their sweet time re-shooting them, which makes all the comments on how BG3 is just fantasy porn at this point ever so slightly more valid).

Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
Volunteer Moderator
Offline
Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
Originally Posted by Brainer
It'd run contrary to the tenets of the gender, no? Afraid I am hardly an expert on the subject, what with finding the concept flawed at the core and devoid of objectivity.

Brainer, you acknowledge you are not an expert in this subject, yet this is not the first time in this thread you have spontaneously criticised the very concept of gender identity. Your idea of what that is seems to be a straw man that won’t be recognised by any trans person, but that doesn’t mean that your repeated digs at the validity of their lived experience won’t be felt. The fact that it’s been a couple of months doesn’t mean it’s okay to start up again, so please let that be the last time I see you make a sweeping and unprovoked statement about this issue that affects people’s real lives.

And, as a reminder, these public forums will be read by people with different political views, religions, races, sexes, genders, sexualities and life experiences. Language that might go unremarked within a bubble of politically like-minded folk can be unnecessarily confrontational here, and we all need to go that extra mile to keep discussions civil and constructive in this diverse community, united only by an interest in Larian’s games. It is possible for us to talk about even potentially controversial topics, but it takes care, mutual respect, and awareness of where to draw a line to avoid insult and unhelpful rows.


"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
Joined: Jun 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
To be fair to Brainer here; Larian's current decision to separate physical body and gender but then to turn around and have stated gender flat out determine what set of physical equipment you are treated as having, irrespective of the body you chose, is very not-great and I cannot imagine many people, regardless of where they fall on the gender and identity spectrum, would be satisfied with that.

Last edited by Niara; 17/03/23 11:47 PM.
Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
Volunteer Moderator
Offline
Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
Okay, in case it wasn’t clear, I am not trying to shut down discussion of the implementation of gender options in BG3 and that is fair game.

What is not reasonable to post here are criticisms of how folk use concepts of gender identity to describe themselves in real life, and it is doing that repeatedly in this thread that has led to my response to Brainer above.

Common courtesy and respect for others with different views and life experiences should be enough of a guide as to what it is acceptable to say in this open forum, but if anyone is in any doubt please feel free to PM me.


"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
Joined: Jan 2023
S
old hand
Offline
old hand
S
Joined: Jan 2023
I'm not sure what brainer is exactly meaning to state. But, yes. Gender, and even almost everything associated with sex, is metaphysics and hence can only be logically coherent, but never proven.

So, it gets interesting when the human mind stumbles onto some forms of worms. Imagine, everyone had a dick and the loser of the wrestliching match becomes pregnant. Or, fish who change /sex/ when it's opportune.

Concepts like "man" and "woman" don't really exist in factual reality. You can try reducing people to reproductive parts. However, that again will say nothing outside the sphere of reproduction. The trouble with metaphysics, unfailingly, is not recognizing just how much we take for granted is make believe. It's both a worthwhile endeavor to study and the most frustrating thing you'll ever encounter.

For example, who can prove genitalia are more meaningful than brain scans? Or, why enforce a policy of "humans can't change sex, so gender is meaningless", when other species very much can? Are only transgender clownfish "valid"?

What happens when we remove pregnancy from the notion of a "female" body by introducing seahorses?

I like to keep my perspectives on pornography and humans separate. Considering trans porn trends most in red US states, that... appears to be the norm. I will not be watching Bg3 sex scenes. For the final result, I imagine this is low importance and may be a bug or unfinished content. Proof of causing problems first, outrage second, you know?

Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
Volunteer Moderator
Offline
Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
Okay, I’m obviously not making myself clear. This forum is not the right place to put forward unsolicited theories of sex and gender. Please stop.

Even if those theories are not in themselves dismissive or insulting to any one group of people, they are sure to be disagreed with so it is provoking others to argue, and I think we are all aware that debates on this topic rarely go well and will undoubtedly lead to positions being stated that will be distressing to those for whom this is not merely a theoretical debate but directly impacts their real lives. Neither they nor anyone else should be forced to endure that when we are here to discuss video games.

Please let’s make the next post in this thread, if there is one, purely about how BG3 or other games handle gender identity without the unnecessary philosophising, and please also without casting any direct or indirect aspersions on anyone’s points of view. If it’s not, I’m going to be strongly tempted to temporarily block it while everyone has time to reflect on what it is civil and constructive to debate on a public games forum.


"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
Joined: Jun 2012
Brainer Offline OP
enthusiast
OP Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2012
Fair points.

To reiterate, while I am critical of the concept, my initial suggestion was not to erase it from the game (which I realize is highly unlikely to happen), but to adjust reactivity making it based on appearance so it's not jarringly dissonant - which kind of removes the entire justification for it's addition in the first place, all things considered... Either that or provide more androgynous appearance options so that there's at least a degree of believability to it.

The last point still stands as a testament to the character customization remaining very bare-bones and not showing many signs of improving all that much upon release - we'll have scars and body types, almost certainly facial markings for the githyanki... and that's about it as far as stuff being confirmed goes? DA:I is almost a decade old at this point, and it had a reasonably powerful appearance editor which did have non-standard facial features for dwarves and qunari while having detailed facial animations in dialogues (granted, they were very uncanny-valleish, but it tried, at least). Just choosing a preset head and messing around a bit with hair and makeup is incredibly limiting by comparison - limiting enough that people resort to mods to actually make something different-looking.

Joined: Sep 2022
Location: Athkatla
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Sep 2022
Location: Athkatla
Gaming in the 90s was like Rock in the 70s. Creative, exploratory, boundary pushing...
Gaming in 2023 is like...this thread.


It just reminded me of the bowl of goat's milk that old Winthrop used to put outside his door every evening for the dust demons. He said the dust demons could never resist goat's milk, and that they would always drink themselves into a stupor and then be too tired to enter his room..
Joined: Jun 2012
Brainer Offline OP
enthusiast
OP Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2012
Originally Posted by Count Turnipsome
Gaming in the 90s was like Rock in the 70s. Creative, exploratory, boundary pushing...
Gaming in 2023 is like...this thread.
No arguments there, unfortunately.

Joined: Jan 2023
S
old hand
Offline
old hand
S
Joined: Jan 2023
Originally Posted by The Red Queen
Okay, I’m obviously not making myself clear. This forum is not the right place to put forward unsolicited theories of sex and gender. Please stop.

Even if those theories are not in themselves dismissive or insulting to any one group of people, they are sure to be disagreed with so it is provoking others to argue, and I think we are all aware that debates on this topic rarely go well and will undoubtedly lead to positions being stated that will be distressing to those for whom this is not merely a theoretical debate but directly impacts their real lives. Neither they nor anyone else should be forced to endure that when we are here to discuss video games.

Please let’s make the next post in this thread, if there is one, purely about how BG3 or other games handle gender identity without the unnecessary philosophising, and please also without casting any direct or indirect aspersions on anyone’s points of view. If it’s not, I’m going to be strongly tempted to temporarily block it while everyone has time to reflect on what it is civil and constructive to debate on a public games forum.
👍

Joined: Sep 2022
F
addict
Offline
addict
F
Joined: Sep 2022
Originally Posted by Brainer
The last point still stands as a testament to the character customization remaining very bare-bones and not showing many signs of improving all that much upon release - we'll have scars and body types, almost certainly facial markings for the githyanki... and that's about it as far as stuff being confirmed goes?

Character customization is really barebones in CRPGs, including BG3 - although it's come a long way.

One of the stronger innovations of 5E was the development of background to suggest key personality trait(s), core ideal, world setting bonds and defining flaw. Identity as gender is fine I suppose, it is an aspect of character, but I'd rather have 5E background choices.

Wouldn't it be nice to be older or younger, and some NPCs sometimes respond in kind? Or chaste, with decline dialogues. Or being unable to resist chicken chasing due to a flaw. Personality choices at character creation that open and close specific options sprinkled throughout the game. Way too much work to implement on the fly, it would have had to been a core design years back.

Joined: Mar 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2021
Originally Posted by Count Turnipsome
Gaming in the 90s was like Rock in the 70s. Creative, exploratory, boundary pushing...
Gaming in 2023 is like...this thread.

Does a thread about representation - in this huge forum - upset you that much?

The problem with culture warriors is that it seems impossible to get them to understand that they are not harmed - in any way - by any of this stuff.

A mentor I once had when I was much younger taught me that "you must create an enemy in your mind first to have an enemy, so don't create enemies for yourself."

Just something to think about.


Blackheifer
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
So ...
I avoided this topic so far, since its not really my cup of beer ... but since there is not much to talk about lately, i got curious.

And i would like to express my agreement with OP.

Also i would like to ask a question:
To whoever who find it important for him/her/them (presuming they are willing to answer ofc.) ... is this (set in menu and whole world automaticly follow) really satisfying execution for you? O_o

I mean ...
I dont care about pronouns myself, so im not sure if i can imagine it properly ... but it just feels kinda unfinished, doesnt it?
I mean, all it would need is to add single sentence for out Tav where he corects that pronoun and one reaction from NPC ... either nod, or "apologies", or "if you say so" ... that doesnt seem so hard. O_o

And yes, im aware that Larian needs to make some compromises, in order to keep development cost in black numbers ... so, if this is "not ideal but acceptable" im familiar with that concept. laugh


If my comments bother you, there is nothing easier than telling me to stop.
I mean ... I won't ... but it's easy to say. wink
Page 6 of 11 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 10 11

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5