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#847706 19/03/23 04:23 AM
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Ok so lets say you find 3 other people to play with you. A PARTY OF FOUR.

What are the pros and cons with the UI or gameplay in your experience?

As part of your answer...

How long do you think it would take you and your friends to complete the game?

Would you want to play through again as a different class and/or race?

Whats the REPLAYABILITY FACTOR?

Can you roll 3 wizards and build it and play it differently?

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Last edited by Commodore_Tyrs; 19/03/23 04:23 AM.
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For me BG3 is very replayable. I also think parties work with any combination of classes, including having duplicates of a class, which is a big strength for multiplayer.

I think the dialogue system is the biggest weakness in multiplayer and is one of the reasons I prefer to play the game as a single player game. My preference for multiplayer would be to have a system like SWTOR has for dialogue where everyone gets a chance to participate and you have the option to wait for other players before starting a conversation. In BG3 the ear icon is easy to miss, and once you click it, you likely miss the start of the conversation.

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Some people have already done playthroughts with multiple of the same class, here is 3 paladins :
So I am not worried about diversity, even within the same class.

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Originally Posted by Icelyn
For me BG3 is very replayable. I also think parties work with any combination of classes, including having duplicates of a class, which is a big strength for multiplayer.

I think the dialogue system is the biggest weakness in multiplayer and is one of the reasons I prefer to play the game as a single player game. My preference for multiplayer would be to have a system like SWTOR has for dialogue where everyone gets a chance to participate and you have the option to wait for other players before starting a conversation. In BG3 the ear icon is easy to miss, and once you click it, you likely miss the start of the conversation.

The replayability factor is EXCELLENT to hear.

I am learning that the dialog is a mess. It makes no sense to me. A company like Larian should understand multi player games. This is D&D, the dialog options should be a HUGE STRENGTH in this game. BIG MISTAKE.

Last edited by Commodore_Tyrs; 19/03/23 01:56 PM.
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Fyi - answering all questions based on current state of the game.

Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
How long do you think it would take you and your friends to complete the game?

I am at about 2,000 hours currently, most of those multiplayer.

The game takes between 8-15 hours to complete EA. It very much depends on the experience level of the players but you are looking at 2-3 sessions of 4-5 hours.

The majority of games started on the Larian Discord are not completed. Unless you have someone with some leadership ability, organizational ability, and persistence then the games just end when people get tired. (IMHO, this is where you and I come in)

Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
What are the pros and cons with the UI or gameplay in your experience?

PROS
1. Inventory, and cast bar are all customizable.
2. You can Lock your inventory if you feel you ever need to. This is a bit unfriendly but some people don't know how to ask.
3. TAB allows you to see the entire party and its inventory/character sheets, and so forth and hit K to see all your spells and abilities.
4. We now have a full reaction system in play
5. Putting a multiplayer group together is really easy - you can invite from your steam friends list or send out an invite code to specific players.
6. Each character has a lot of individual freedom to do what they want. This also means characters can work at cross purposes. You can go anywhere you want in act 1 on your own. You can attack and kill each other. You can steal from one another (even with locked inventory you just have to make the SoH check).
7. Surfaces are under control in Bg3 compared to DOS2.
8. You can kill almost everyone in ACt 1 - there are of course repercussions for this and likely even bigger ones down the road in the city but for now you can get away with a lot.
9. You have a lot of flexibility as to the degree of evil/good path you can follow.
10. The way Paladin and the Oathbreaker system is implemented is pure genius. "Oh no, I can't commit war crimes as a paladin?!"
11. They got rid of the exhaustion mechanic, makes Berserker Barbarians actually feasible as an option.
12. Your free-ranging fellow players can get you into a lot of trouble. "Oh, shit!" "What happened?!" "Ummm.." "Just tell me, who are we at war with now?" - It makes for unexpected scenarios.

CONS:
1. Cannot export characters
2. No DM mode and no idea if we will ever get it
3. No night and day cycle (it's only night when you go to camp to rest at end of day)
4. Shove as a bonus action (this should be a feat + shield)
5. Hide as a bonus action (only rogues should be able to do this)
6. Barrelmancy is less but it's still around.
7. UI still needs some work, Tuco is more the expert on this though.
8. We don't have ready action in game yet.



Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
Would you want to play through again as a different class and/or race?

Hell yes, I have played pretty much every single class race combo, and I can't wait to get even more options, subclasses etc...

However, that is me, I have people that will only play a specific race/class combo. They really won't play anything else.

Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
Whats the REPLAYABILITY FACTOR?
Extraordinarily High.
reason:
1. A multitude of branching story paths.
2. A multitude of character types, and subclasses, and races to play that will get reacted to differently.
3. I could probably build out a multi-stage diagram of Act 1 that shows the branching pathways of certain major choices but it would take some time.
4. At, 2,000 hours I am still finding new things I missed, or new class/race/cleric (religion) responses from the world.

Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
Can you roll 3 wizards and build it and play it differently?
Yes, Do a Githyanki Wizard for a more melee based frontline armored wizard (Evocation), A Deep Gnome back lines pure caster wizard (Evocation)and a Wood Elf/Drow High dex Abjurer (shields) stealthy wizard.
Although I would caution people against this sort of thing, it is doable. There are currently only 2 subclasses in EA for Wizards, but we get more on full release*. (Evocation and Abjuration)

We once did 4 Wild Magic Sorcerers in a run and we died A LOT. So many one shots by enthusiastic monsters. The lesson we learned was that you shouldn't multiply your weaknesses.

Also it's a bit easier to do this with Sorcerers because they share Charisma with Warlocks. Likely you have heard of the Sorlock build.

*As a side note apparently we will not have multiclass on release but it's supposed to be added later.

Last edited by Blackheifer; 19/03/23 03:27 PM.

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Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
As part of your answer...

How long do you think it would take you and your friends to complete the game?
Without knowing how long the game is, it is difficult to tell. Taking my experience with D:OS1&2 as a base, I doubt I will ever complete BG3 in coop. In both cases my coop partner got bored about 10ish hours and wanted to move to something new. Both D:OSs also get weaker from system and content perspective after initial act, so we will see if BG3 will suffer the same fate (considering that we don't get to titular Baldur's Gate city, I hope it won't be the case).

Still, even if game will be brilliant from start to finish we are talking about what is likely 100h+ campaign, which for the best experience will require all coop partners to play together at all times. So I might coordinate couple game sessions to hang out and catch up with old friends, but no, completion of the campaign seems very unlikely.


Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
Would you want to play through again as a different class and/or race?
If I replay the game, than yes absolutely.

Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
Whats the REPLAYABILITY FACTOR?
With variety of races/classes/choices and potential branching paths potental replaybility seems high. To me personally, it depends on game's quality more than exclusive per-playthrough content. I value depth and quality of the experience more than "playthrough exclusive" content. For example, for me to care about various character builds and party compositions, the game would need to be fine tuned and balanced to make playthrough with each build tactically satisfying and engaging. So far the game is too sloppy and too clunky to interact with to play it outside dropping each update to see what was improved. We will see how 1.0 will hold up.

Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
Can you roll 3 wizards and build it and play it differently?
I think so, especially if you could "multiclassing" as still playing a wizard.

Last edited by Wormerine; 19/03/23 02:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Fyi - answering all questions based on current state of the game. (snip)

Blackheifer, this is a TRULY helpful reply. I'm going to share your input with my guild on our forums! Thank you kindly.

Last edited by Commodore_Tyrs; 19/03/23 08:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by Wormerine
snip

Very positive

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Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Fyi - answering all questions based on current state of the game. (snip)

Blackheifer, this is a TRULY helpful reply. I'm going to share your input with my guild on our forums! Thank you kindly.

Oh no problem. Honestly I really am looking for additional ideas on how to manage the full game when it gets released. I think I mentioned we estimated that the full 3-Act game will be 15-20 sessions of 4-5 hours, or 60-100 Multiplayer hours. Act 2 is apparently massive.

It's one of the reasons I am focusing on interpersonal skills - because you have 4 people that are going to be together for a LONG time, possibly months, and it's a small group.

Anyway, if you have any insight into how this can be managed please feel free to share.


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
The game takes between 8-15 hours to complete EA. It very much depends on the experience level of the players but you are looking at 2-3 sessions of 4-5 hours.
That feels like a very short estimate. I am pretty sure in singleplayer first playthrough took me 20-30 hours - and in my experience coop play take longer, with multile hotbar/inventory managements at different times, thinking in turn based happening one at a time, rather than forming one plan and than executing it.

Or it that playtrhough of experience party? Know content, don't read stuff, skip cutscenes and dialogue, have combat encounters pretty figured out.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
[quote=Blackheifer]Fyi - answering all questions based on current state of the game. (snip)


It's one of the reasons I am focusing on interpersonal skills - because you have 4 people that are going to be together for a LONG time, possibly months, and it's a small group.

Anyway, if you have any insight into how this can be managed please feel free to share.


THIS is one of the GREATEST BENEFITS of creating or belonging to an old school gaming or MMO guild. Camaraderie is lost in much of today's gaming world as it is lost in too much of the real world.

In our guild, camaraderie is what we are known for, so finding a good group of like-minded players is pretty easy. Guildies will group up with whoever they like, or just ask other guildies to join them. If you have a tight-knit guild, creating a "static group" isn't a problem, it's an opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
The game takes between 8-15 hours to complete EA. It very much depends on the experience level of the players but you are looking at 2-3 sessions of 4-5 hours.
That feels like a very short estimate. I am pretty sure in singleplayer first playthrough took me 20-30 hours - and in my experience coop play take longer, with multile hotbar/inventory managements at different times, thinking in turn based happening one at a time, rather than forming one plan and than executing it.

Or it that playtrhough of experience party? Know content, don't read stuff, skip cutscenes and dialogue, have combat encounters pretty figured out.

You are correct, my best group managed to finish the game in under 8 hours - but those are all people with more than 1,000 hours in and an optimized group (Zerker Barbarian, Dark Elf Rogue, Light Cleric, Githyanki Wizard (Evocation)). They all have meta knowledge.

An average experienced group will take about 12-15 hours with 1 or 2 new players. I don't have stats on all new players. I would say 20+

Single player the game is 40-80 hours - depending on how much time you want to spend and how completist you want to be. We estimate the full game will be 250-350 hours single player.

Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
[quote=Blackheifer]Fyi - answering all questions based on current state of the game. (snip)


It's one of the reasons I am focusing on interpersonal skills - because you have 4 people that are going to be together for a LONG time, possibly months, and it's a small group.

Anyway, if you have any insight into how this can be managed please feel free to share.


THIS is one of the GREATEST BENEFITS of creating or belonging to an old school gaming or MMO guild. Camaraderie is lost in much of today's gaming world as it is lost in too much of the real world.

In our guild, camaraderie is what we are known for, so finding a good group of like-minded players is pretty easy. Guildies will group up with whoever they like, or just ask other guildies to join them. If you have a tight-knit guild, creating a "static group" isn't a problem, it's an opportunity.

Agreed, one of the reasons we organize social events in Discord. Camaraderie is very valuable.

What I am currently working on though is the logistics of scheduling events. We are testing a Discord bot called SESH that ties into a google calendar and builds out custom threads when a group is created (that only those members can see) and individual reminders when a session is coming up. It looks like it will do what we need, but I am always interested in what methods other people are using. The best way to handle no-shows, swaps, etc...

Last edited by Blackheifer; 20/03/23 04:32 PM.

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Well we use SHIVTR's forum. You CANNOT BEAT its party scheduling system. Has a roster that can be updated with everyone's multiple characters -- and time zone accurate party scheduling.

We do have a system in discord as well that works great. I leave it up to the guild leader in each Tyrs game chapter if they want tousae the forum or discord. There is no universal RIGHT system. The right system is the one your guildies actually USE!! :)~~~

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What are the pros and cons of the user interface or gameplay in your experience?

For me, the best way to play is by forming a party of 4, and I have already suggested and will suggest again: if possible, expand the possibility of playing with as many players as possible! (Parties of 5-6 or even 8 players would be incredible, just like my real-life RPG tables.) Out of every 5 new games I start, 4 are played with my friends in parties of three or four players.

PROS:
- DnD 5e comes to life in front of my eyes!
- Any player who starts the game can build a functional character right from the beginning, unlike other multiplayer games where you need to be at higher levels to fully enjoy the gameplay.
- Interaction with the world is free and individualized.
- Possibilities of varied combinations of actions.

CONS:
- Shared initiative (my biggest issue in MP).
- The UI doesn't draw enough attention to the player whose turn it is.
- Dialogues, my friend... only the player who triggered the dialogue scene can make the checks, which is quite inconvenient. (In tabletop, if a player is nearby, they can intervene and make the check instead of the player who started the conversation, using the highest modifier possible, of course, within the context of the scene and the distance the player is from the scene).


How long do you think you and your friends would take to complete the game?
It depends a lot on the party's configuration, but using our main characters (the ones we know how to play best), I believe we could finish the game in less than 10 hours, including bathroom breaks and receiving pizzas.

Would you like to play again as a different class and/or race?
I do that every day... I've been a tabletop DM for quite some time, and I think it's wonderful to be able to explore and test different possibilities. I always prefer to start a new game rather than continue the previous one. At least during the EA.

What is the replayability factor?
On a scale of 0 to 10, for me, replayability is easily a 10!


Is it possible to create and play with three different mages and build them differently?
Totally possible, even in the EA, we already have enough options for that, including with the 5eSpells mod, we can see the dimension that this variety can reach in the future. In the EA, we were able to make a party of 4 dwarf bards, each acting totally differently from the other.

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Did you say... bard?

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I've been playing Mississippee Queen in Dungeons & Dragons Online (DDO) since 2009. She's a spellsinger. I'll be looking to replicate her success here. She's as spellsinger and known best for her crowd control abilities and insanely high haggle skill! smile

Those with DDO forum access: https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/168293-Haggle-Bard-Mississippi-Queen

Those with or without DDO forum access:

[video:youtube]
[/video]

Last edited by Commodore_Tyrs; 21/03/23 05:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by Aurimas_IGL
What are the pros and cons of the user interface or gameplay in your experience?

For me, the best way to play is by forming a party of 4, and I have already suggested and will suggest again: if possible, expand the possibility of playing with as many players as possible! (Parties of 5-6 or even 8 players would be incredible, just like my real-life RPG tables.) Out of every 5 new games I start, 4 are played with my friends in parties of three or four players.

PROS:
- DnD 5e comes to life in front of my eyes!
- Any player who starts the game can build a functional character right from the beginning, unlike other multiplayer games where you need to be at higher levels to fully enjoy the gameplay.
- Interaction with the world is free and individualized.
- Possibilities of varied combinations of actions.

CONS:
- Shared initiative (my biggest issue in MP).
- The UI doesn't draw enough attention to the player whose turn it is.
- Dialogues, my friend... only the player who triggered the dialogue scene can make the checks, which is quite inconvenient. (In tabletop, if a player is nearby, they can intervene and make the check instead of the player who started the conversation, using the highest modifier possible, of course, within the context of the scene and the distance the player is from the scene).


How long do you think you and your friends would take to complete the game?
It depends a lot on the party's configuration, but using our main characters (the ones we know how to play best), I believe we could finish the game in less than 10 hours, including bathroom breaks and receiving pizzas.

Would you like to play again as a different class and/or race?
I do that every day... I've been a tabletop DM for quite some time, and I think it's wonderful to be able to explore and test different possibilities. I always prefer to start a new game rather than continue the previous one. At least during the EA.

What is the replayability factor?
On a scale of 0 to 10, for me, replayability is easily a 10!


Is it possible to create and play with three different mages and build them differently?
Totally possible, even in the EA, we already have enough options for that, including with the 5eSpells mod, we can see the dimension that this variety can reach in the future. In the EA, we were able to make a party of 4 dwarf bards, each acting totally differently from the other.

Such good news here, but yeah, bad news too. Shared initiative is VITAL to the D&D experience.


"Dialogues, my friend... only the player who triggered the dialogue scene can make the checks, which is quite inconvenient." -- Oh that's PAINFULLY BAD. What is the point of a ROGUE or a CLERIC or BARD or a PALADIN or ALIGNMENTS aka being LAWFULL GOOD or CHAOTIC NEUTRAL or ANY alignment????

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That shared dialogue thing is a big one for me as well.

My top asks for Bg3.

1. DM Mode. The good news is the bones of it are in the software since DOS2 had GM mode which let you take control of any NPC and play as them, so in a fight you would control all the bad guys. You can spawn in enemies, create scenarios, items etc...
2. Shared dialogue as long as the party is grouped up. I realize it's a big ask but it's immersion breaking that you can't have your most charismatic person speak for the party regardless of who gets "tagged" in the conversations.
3. Day/Night cycle - I don't think this needs to be elaborate, something simple - no need to change people's locations or cycles even.
4. Hardcore rules. No bonus action shove without the feat, no barrelmancy, no help action restore without a heal kit, no throwing potions to heal or haste.
5. Character Export/Import - would love to export characters for other adventures with groups.
6. Smaller modules of 15-20 hours, or old D&D modules using this platform like Keep on the Borderlands, Temple of Elemental Evil, Descent into Avernus*, Curse of Strahd and so on.

*Descent into Avernus would make a lot of sense as a prequel to BG3 - or plot twist - Tav is one of the adventurers from Descent into Avernus and the tadpole insertion resets your level to 1.

The main thing is that this Engine and Platform is absolutely amazing and the long term viability of BG3 will be down to Multiplayer.


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Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
"Dialogues, my friend... only the player who triggered the dialogue scene can make the checks, which is quite inconvenient." -- Oh that's PAINFULLY BAD. What is the point of a ROGUE or a CLERIC or BARD or a PALADIN or ALIGNMENTS aka being LAWFULL GOOD or CHAOTIC NEUTRAL or ANY alignment????
There are still class specific conversation options, so the class very much betters - just the one who is leading the conversation. I didn't play BG3 in multi, but in my time with Larian's previous games - D:OS1&2 most conversations could be repeated with a different characters - so when possible one player would leave the conversation, and another would restart it. Not ideal solition, but at least in D:OS1&2 I didn't mind it. I do enjoy story much more in BG3, while in D:OS1&2 I was actually relieved to be able to not do half of the conversations.

As far as aligments go - they are not in Baldur's Gate3. You don't pick them, the game doesn't seem to try to tag you as one. Not that you won't able to roleplay as a specific alignment, but it is not recognised in the game.

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D&D without alignments?

So no alignment based weapons?

I can dig it, but don't see the reason to exclude them. They are in 5e. I'm assuming they didn't want to code it if under time or budget constraints...

Im still very excited for the game though.

Last edited by Commodore_Tyrs; 23/03/23 05:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by Commodore_Tyrs
D&D without alignments?
I remember hearing/reading that removal of alignments was done in agreement with WotC. Isn't One D&D supposed to not do alignments as well? From what I understand, it is a concept that WotC have been moving away from for some time. You probably would know better than myself.

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