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The decision to make spells with more than one target area of effect spells with a limited area and agency over who to buff/disable instead of just clicking some targets is more than questionable to me.

I don't want to bring my wizard or warlock next to the dangerous melee fight just to get Bless on all of them. Or even worse, someone in my party has a summoned familiar other characters fighting with me somewhere in between and I can only waste one of the bless buffs on them. It might have to do with the current difficulty tuning of enemies, but when deciding between a buff/control spell or just blasting an enemy with damage, I almost always choose the latter because I get the result I expected. Please let me choose my targets for buffs. I can choose with scorching ray or similar damaging spells afterall.

To dispel the doubts that it might slow down combat or make it less enjoyable to simply click your intended targets:
It is faster to click your targets than to find the exact spot where your targets are closest to the center or barely still in the radius while less critical allies or enemies are not.
In quick and easy fights, these spells usually do not come into play anyway.
In difficult fights, right now it is frustrating to make tiny mistakes in positioning and then realize you can't cast at the targets you want to or even worse - be at the mercy of any npc movement.

At the relatively low levels of the Early Access it is very apparent with Bless, but I can imagine it only gets worse on higher levels when it's possible to upcast something like Hold Person to target several dangerous enemies or twin some high level spell only to be restricted by some tiny circle. I want to figure out challenging and interesting encounters, not run away until I funneled my enemies around enough corners to finally be able to cast the spells I need to win difficult battles.

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Yeah, the multi-targeting with spells, those without attack rolls, has been discussed a number of times. It makes those spells, and Twinned Meta-Magic, much less useful. But, it's been this way for two and a half years, so I fear we may be stuck with it. Given the nerfing of most spells, either directly or indirectly, it may be a feature for all I know.

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"Its been like this for two and a half years."

That sums up BG3 EA for so much stuff lol.


It just reminded me of the bowl of goat's milk that old Winthrop used to put outside his door every evening for the dust demons. He said the dust demons could never resist goat's milk, and that they would always drink themselves into a stupor and then be too tired to enter his room..
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The last time I reported the issue with multi-target buffing spells not permitting you to pick your targets correctly, I was informed that this is working as intended, and that the design choice to make your buffing (and debuffing and control - since I was reporting both this and also twin-casting hold person as well) woefully ineffective and fiddly to use like this was deliberate.

I attempted to reiterate that this design choice was simply not acceptable on any level, but I'd strongly encourage anyone and everyone else to continue doing the same thought official channels as much as you have the stamina to do.

Last edited by Niara; 20/03/23 11:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by Niara
The last time I reported the issue with multi-target buffing spells not permitting you to pick your targets correctly, I was informed that this is working as intended, and that the design choice to make your buffing (and debuffing and control - since I was reporting both this and also twin-casting hold person as well) woefully ineffective and fiddly to use like this was deliberate.

Ugh, that’s disappointing. I agree with you, the OP and everyone else who has said that these spells would be better individually targeted and it’s really annoying having to try to position characters and/or the cursor so as to try to affect who I want.


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Originally Posted by Niara
The last time I reported the issue with multi-target buffing spells not permitting you to pick your targets correctly, I was informed that this is working as intended,
There are things like that, that really confuse me about Larian. How can they use bless and not find it incredibly tedious and frustrating?

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The cynic in me says: "Because they've decided that buffing and debuffing is boring, and they don't want people to do it, because they don't want to do it themselves. They want people to focus on big flashy things, because that forward advertises better."

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I hope they've changed their mind since your reporting, but I doubt it. And stuff like this really does make me think that Larian aren't actually all that great at game design. They just happened to find an unfilled niche making rpgs that cater to a desire for dumb, hectic, inconsistent chaos.

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Originally Posted by Niara
The cynic in me says: "Because they've decided that buffing and debuffing is boring, and they don't want people to do it, because they don't want to do it themselves. They want people to focus on big flashy things, because that forward advertises better."
I honestly can't think of any other explanation. My first thought was: "maybe they have some silly rules about amount of mouse clicks per skill use" but:
1) their UI is very inefficient to begin with, so it can't be a priority
2) offensive skills targetting multiple characters, like Magic Missle or Scorching Ray work normally, so there is clearly double standards.

And there is of course, wider tendency to change tactical utility skills, such as push, into lethal offensive attacks.

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One of my most present memories of the game is one fight where I tried desperately for some minutes to get Bless on my four chars and not the imp who was near, it was in vain. Maybe Larian thinks that such strong emotional moments in the end do count more than boring functional mechanics? They know better than us. stupid

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A mechanic for choosing targets is totally relevant and functional in this game.

Buff/debuff spells are essential in any RPG, and I'm not sure if this will be fixed upon release...

In my understanding, these spells are working this way because of the overpower they can cause within the game, so a certain difficulty was created to cast them in order to balance these abilities.

However, the buffs that enemies use seem to be well-directed...

BG3 DM likes to make hard times to his players...

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Originally Posted by Aurimas_IGL
In my understanding, these spells are working this way because of the overpower they can cause within the game, so a certain difficulty was created to cast them in order to balance these abilities.
I doubt it. First of all, concentration based spells in BG3 are already difficult to hold on to, due to the multitude of sources of guaranteed damage. For example, if I try to cast bless or bane when fighting goblins they will start chalking unavoidable granade and more likely than not will get the spell cancelled before I get any value out of it.

Also it is still very possible to target all the characters you want - the AoE previews selected targets, so it is just a matter of being patient and wiggling it around, until AI picks units you want. It does what you want it to do, just in a very inefficient and frustrating way.

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I suspect it's some combination of reducing the power of the spell, making it a single click to cast, and more of a tactical decision.

Compared to Solasta, I cast Guiding bolt/Command/Inflict wounds more often and Bless less often, but when I see a good party grouping early in a fight, I strongly consider it.

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The fact it's a concentration spell already makes it a tactical decision. You have to worry about concentration being broken (which is easier in this game than in tabletop due to various homebrew Larian changes) and you have to choose between having it and having a different concentration spell. They've just made Bless more situational to the point where its potential use cases make it pretty pointless and tedious to use. And the single click to cast is a dumb idea because you're probably wasting way more time trying to make it hit all the targets you want it to, as opposed to speedily just clicking who you want. Also, they let you click for damage spells, so clearly reducing clicks isn't all that much of a concern for them. Also if your good party grouping involves a familiar, enjoy the tedious time spent positioning it so you don't waste it on a familiar instead of one of your party.

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Originally Posted by Niara
The cynic in me says: "Because they've decided that buffing and debuffing is boring, and they don't want people to do it, because they don't want to do it themselves. They want people to focus on big flashy things, because that forward advertises better."


Depressingly plausible.

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Seriously? Bless as written is a no-brainer. There’s nothing tactical about casting a first level spell that increases the DPR of the party’s best hitters. If round one strikes all hit against moderate encounters, you end up saving spell slots. In Solasta it was a foregone click tax.

And lots more game elements need second click removed, dash and action surge spring to mind.

And familiars? By level 5 I’m only situationally summoning them, they’re simply less valuable.

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Originally Posted by FreeTheSlaves
Seriously? Bless as written is a no-brainer. There’s nothing tactical about casting a first level spell that increases the DPR of the party’s best hitters. If round one strikes all hit against moderate encounters, you end up saving spell slots. In Solasta it was a foregone click tax.
Sure, Bless is very strong RAW, but making using it unwieldy/awkward to use shouldn't be the fix. After all, as others have mentioned, it's still possible to effectively select targets; it's just annoying to do so.

Better fixes would be to maybe reduce the bonus, restrict it to only proc 1x/turn or round, and/or affect fewer targets. Although actually, Bless is already nerfed in BG3 due to the ease of losing concentration, so the inability to also choose specific targets makes it way too weak.

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Originally Posted by FreeTheSlaves
...

And familiars? By level 5 I’m only situationally summoning them, they’re simply less valuable.

But that's not a reason to make it sometimes impossible and often a bit difficult to hit your chars with Bless and not the summoned minion.

And btw, I also disagree, some familiars are very useful also at lvl 5. I always summon Wyll's imp f.e., it's high mobility makes it very easy to considerably diminish the effectiveness of enemy ranged and casters, and it's also some additional damage. Not to speak of the animal companions of the Beastmaster Ranger, they rank from useful/very strong to absolutely overpowered at lvl 5. So the party can easily consist of 5 or 6 (or even 7 if the Ranger also summons the normal familiar).

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Ha ha, ever since 2014 we have known that bless is straight out OP, but that’s OK because it’s an iconic cleric action, just like wizards fireballing.

In TT because you say aloud who gets it. But in CRPGs you have to click, I’m sorry but I actually get sore arm playing 2 hours. Gym fixes it but I'm no friend of extra clicks. I toggle off reactions for paladins too (and seldom run out of smites, I find the game very easy now.)

I enjoyed Solasta, but the excess clicking was tedious.

For me, it’s fine as is. Sure the wrong person gets the buff sometimes but that just means you should consider guiding bolt or command instead - or do it anyway, it’s still strong affecting 2.

(Edit) I’d also be fine if they did it like Aid, everyone gets the bonus. OP but hey, SH is always running out of spells, so no biggie.

Last edited by FreeTheSlaves; 22/03/23 08:11 AM.
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I don’t have any problem with beastmaster animal companion, they’re supposed to be level appropriate all the way up to 20. But blessing them shouldn’t upset you because of this - they’re part of your DPR. Buffing them is good!

However, come on about familiars. It’s a level 1 spell. Yes, they’re cool at tier 1 and remain useful at tier 2+ especially exploring, but I simply can’t be bothered with them in half the fights in EA once level 5. The party DPR has jumped so much they’re often an irrelevant waste of a click.

Bless though still retains its power, more so with extra attacks. Ditch the familiar, or have it space out its turn, bless the tanks and finish the fight round 3.

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