Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General What games to play other than BG3 only?

nvnmind

Well, I typically don't really do "the same things a lot" in Souls games because thankfully I don't suck to a terminal degree, but to each one his own.

That aside, the comparison with an "assembly line" still sounds spectacularly misguided, given that these are games that reward mastery and skillful execution way more than repetition and go as far as they could from encouraging the player to act mechanically without thinking.
Sekiro in particular may very well be the pinnacle of action combat or at least a very strong contender for the top spot.

I get what you mean about MMO's, but I wouldn't use the term "assembly line" - rather I would say they are highly choreographed events. Speaking as a former Vanilla WoW Choreographer (Raid Leader) I can attest to the difficulty in getting 40 people to all do the correct thing - depending on roles - for 2-10 minutes.

There is a sense of fun and accomplishment in that kind of gaming, but I would say Souls games are the opposite of that.

Elden Ring in particular was so good that it really set a new standard for expectations in regards to combat in games. I used to compare Skyrim's lackluster combat to The Witcher 3's far more evolved combat, but now Elden Ring has taken that top spot and makes The Witcher 3 combat seem only decent in comparison.

Sadly Skyrim has moved down even further to "laughable" and "abysmal"

The most difficult raid I was ever involved in required five people to each press a coloured button in an order that would be given to you, but it was randomised each time, and you had a limit on how long you could take to do it. And we had to do it correctly at least five times to succeed. On it's own, this would not seem like a big ask, but sometimes trying to get a bunch of gamers to do something specific, or even Wait Their Turn (absurd), is like trying to get 12 cats into carriers all at once.

The most difficult thing I did in a MMO was in FFXIV, clearing Ultima Weapon Ultimate. It was probably about 100+ hours of the whole group learning its mechanics and the different ways that said mechanics could randomly affect each member of the party and how we were supposed to respond to them, because anyone making any mistake in the whole ~16 minute fight usually spiraled into a party wipe.

One was enough for me. I don't have the dedication to tackle the other four ultimate raids, and I think they're all still collectively considered the most difficult raids in all of MMO history.

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All this talk about action RPGs just makes me more impatient for Dragon's Dogma 2 news. Still the gold standard of action RPGs with an actual class system.

Used to to do 40-men WoW raids back as the shaman class leader in my guild, back then. We even achieve some decent results at the time, like first Onyxia and Ragnarok kills in our server and for an Italian guild.

Ah, the good old times... I wouldn't go back to play that stuff if I was paid to do it.

You usually have to do the same fight again and again to win in the end, and at least in Elden Ring (which I played the most of the Souls games) all NPCs respawn after taking a rest, so you have to fight them again and again (or run through and so avoid most content). NPCs are level bots, bosses are boring grind. I don't like it (besides several other things in Elden Ring), for me it gives me vibes of the sad time I played WoW, but of course I know that many people are great fans of the games.

You do the same fight "again and again" if you DIE again and again. It's perfectly possible to pass many of them at a first attempt, so claiming that the "Grinding" (which is not even proper grinding since death is also paired with a loss of "progression currency"-aka runes-) is an intrinsic part of the gameplay loop is misguided at best, openly disingenuous at worst.
Repetition before beating something in the game is neither implicitly required nor rewarded (if not with the knowledge of how to do better, at least).

And the bosses aren't "boring grind", they are the gameplay highlight where you are asked to put in practice what you learn of the system and show your mastery. In a combat system that gained a reputation specifically for its merit of being tight and satisfying for anyone who bother to learn it.

You can just say you don't like the game/series without making up unsubstantiated crap to justify a personal bias.

The comparison with WOW remains complete nonsense, too. The core systems and the subset of personal skills required to to succeed in both games couldn't be further apart, both in principle and in executions.
One is a game that rewards knowledge, planning, preparation and coordination with multiple players, the other is predominantly a solo experience where even the biggest boss fights are short and brutal affairs that are solved in a matter of seconds through an action-heavy combat system that rewards dynamism and skillful execution.

I think we would need to determine definition of grinding. As I understand it, grinding is doing repetitive content, for a lengthy amount of time to move through slow progression system (farming XP, loot, resources etc.). I don't think grinding applies to getting better as a player - so for example playing a lot of competitive game matches to get better, or repeating difficult encounter where player always starts with the same odds of winning.

I hate grinding with passion, and I would say that FromSoft games have none of it, unless you conciously choose to do so (aka. I don't want to learn the boss, so I will overlevel it - Sekiro being the exception of course, due to limited vertical progression). Beating bosses is about learning their moveset and developing strategy to beat them, so to me that's peak gameplay. Though if you don't enjoy this type of gameplay loop I can see how one could perceive it as grinding (though I don't think it is an accurate term to use).

It reminds me of rogue-lite conundrum - I have heard people criticise rogue-lites without meta progressions, like Spelunky or Crypt of Necrodancer because how "grindy" their are, and praise rogue-lites with meta progression as a better design. To me it is a complete opposite, as it is the rogue-lites with meta-progression who are designed around grinding. Whenever it is your first or 100th run of Spelunky (or FromSoftware boss) your chances of success are the same - the only thing that will change is player skill. On the other hand, games like Rogue Legacy, Hades stack odds heavily against the player, and gradually tip the scales over as they continue grinding. I personally find this illusion of game mastery really unsatisfying, as it doesn't take long to see through the charade, but to each their own I suppose.

That's odd, as Elden Ring pretty much discarted boss runs. It tends to put Stakes of Marika pretty much near every spot player is likely to die around. DS1&2 definitely had their share of tedious boss runs, but that's design that FromSoft has been gradually moving away from.

I used to say that "Raid Leading is like babysitting except you can't beat the children."*



We were the only guild on our server to take down Kel'thuzad in Naxxramas - it took months to get through, and we lost people to stress and insufficient internet connections. We did it once and then we were done. I also NEVER want to do that again. Having to tell a good player that they can't go with us because their internet isn't good enough just sucks.


*This is a joke. I would not hit a child under any circumstances.

I would.

World of Warcraft MMO is great game at least when it was done and early expansions and I loved it the old WOW. Well and Classic WOW MMO is still good.

However from Iceland Reykjavik and Finland Helsinki another MMO Pax Dei is upcoming. The founders 13 people are from Iceland and Finland. Most are in Iceland Reykjavik and Finland Helsinki to my understanding. They also have people in France Paris. Anyway programmers are roughly from Europe you could say and if I have understood correctly they have worked on this game since 2019 and have roughly 70 people that does do this game.


A little warning though. You can only play as human there are no dwarves or elves. Supernatural exists example Ghosts and it is perhaps a bit more realistic (magic and supernatural exists) medieval time. PvP? That is still unclear how exactly PvP will be done however it is not 100% full PvP world like Ashes of Creation MMO. There are like safe area where you can example craft items and have a home house. My guess some areas will be full PvP this is not a game with only voluntary PvP like an instance PvP battle.

Please keep in mind game is so early in development so PvP is still subject to possible change and a bit unknown how exactly PvP will be done.

Not sure if it’s been mentioned already, but I recently played Disco Elysium.

Its pretty much all dialogue (now fully voiced), including all the skills which are almost like different characters in your messed up head, chipping in to give you information, insight and occasionally disagreeing.

It’s dark, weird, hilariously funny at times and desperately sad at others, with real good music.

I always keep an eye on upcoming MMO's to see if any of them wise-up and capture the brilliance of Vanilla WoW. This is one of the ones I am watching. So fingers crossed that they get it right.

Pax Dei, the New World killer lol

Is there even a MMO that can capture the brilliance of Vanilla WoW? While it was a truly great game, I think the context and mentality of the players has chaged drastically, and that nothing will ever capture the social aspect of WoW. Now the vast majority of players treat MMOs as single player games and I doubt forcing them to cooperate would have any success.

Yes perhaps, but they are not exactly the same. Magic exist in Pax Dei. I would guess low Magic world but perhaps you can learn Magic in Pax Dei? Well and you could as an PvE enemy encounter a very nasty Witch like Blair Witch:

They have said our world myths such thing will be real there are lots more not only Ghosts. I would be surprised if it does not have Werewolves and other nasty monsters. Dragons are as myths in our world very much indeed.

Seems to me this Open World (I do not like so much) is the "new" thing.
I have never played New World MMO. That said what I have heard New World MMO was Open world. Then players said this sucks Open World. Well today I would say New World MMO is more like semi Open World and semi Team Park. The New World MMO PvP? You can not avoid PvP once you have joined a faction and you must join a faction so not from beginning PvP but later for sure.

I do like Team Park very much.
Another thing how I they going to tell the story in Pax Dei? They say there are no NPC which sounds crazy to me? Books? I do not read any books unless it a book of how to craft but story books hell no.

WOW MMO is Team Park MMO and I think it is the best MMO that has been done. BG3 is Team Park game and I have bought BG3 and played Early Access.
That said Pax Dei is Unreal Engine 5 and I will keep an eye open on this game Pax Dei.

These makers are the the same people that have done EVE Online MMO. Do you know how PvP is in Eve Online MMO? There is no mercy and there is PvP in EVE Online MMO you can not avoid it! They have someone at least that have WOW MMO in their CV.
Seems to me Pax Dei likely will be more tough in PvP section if you never want PvP then I think Pax Dei is for not you. Theoretically maybe you can craft in safe area in Pax Dei, but I do not want to play a game to only be crafter. I want to explore the World and if you do that in Pax Dei very likely you are subject to PvP.

They have talked about Clans in Pax Dei. Perhaps PvP is done so that if you belong to same Clan you can not attack same Clan members in Pax Dei. Like in WOW MMO there are Alliance and Horde factions. "Please keep in mind game is so early in development so PvP is still subject to possible change and a bit unknown how exactly PvP will be done."

Ashes of Creation MMO tries to be like old traditional MMOS even trinity tank, healer and dps. Full Open World PvP world but also the PvE monsters are so hard you really can not play solo that is impossible unless you like to be killed constantly. Ashes of Creation MMO will perhaps not in sales do super much. That said Ashes of Creation have many great things like many races and classes it is more like in old traditional MMO spirit.

There are Raids in Ashes of Creation MMO.

Now despite price of 500 euro to buy early Ashes of Creation MMO really many have done that that must create some income if huge amount pay 500 euro. Alpha 2 in Ashes of Creation MMO seems to be roughly towards end of 2023 or early 2024 example January or February 2024. There is no pay to win in Ashes of Creation MMO you can only pay to get access to ALPHA plays. Ashes of Creation MMO is also hyped to KINGDOM COME after all they aim for 500 vs 500 PvP with Unreal 5 graphics but I believe when/if I see it but none the less huge PvP fights possible. I would not be surprised if the say in Ashes of Creation PvP 500 vs 500 is impossible maximum size will be 300 vs 300 (or 400 vs 400).
Ashes of Creation is not pay to win and will have monthly sub fee.

To me, much better question is if there really was such a thing as "Vanila WoW brilliance" ...
We were young, naive, and much more forgiving than we are now ... there was lots of things Vanila WoW did wrong ... but we dont even remember those ... what we remember is good stuff, packed with memories that cant be repeated, and lots of nostalgia.

Point is: No game is ever as good as your beloved classic ... not even that beloved classic itself.

Pax Dei looks amazing, wowl! I haven't played an MMO except for ESO for a short time, but that was very unfulfilling.

You sound so familiar Matrix3000, but it looks like you've just joined...I think you and the OP would really get along. I can't wait to listen to the two of you banter back and forth together when they return!

Cheers!