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Originally Posted by Undomiel
positioning yourself on the elevated bridges allows for an easy resolution of the encounter
Once i had the same idea ...
Sadly, some Duergars are equipped with Arrow of Roaring Thunder.

I must admit it was really an easy and fast resolution ...
Sadly not even close to desired resolution, that would include my party being alive at the end of that encounter. :-/

Originally Posted by Wormerine
laezelapprove @Rag! I think your account was hacked.
Dont know what do you mean.
Shove is rare example where i agree with majority around here for quite some time. laugh

Aproximately since first few weeks in EA, when it was pointed out to me that no matter how much you try hard to avoid it, NPCs keep using it against you ... so there is no true way to ACTUALLY avoid it ...

But i must admit, i dont have strong opinion on way of fixing this ...
Either make it action, or drasticaly reduce distance, or make it lot harder roll ... either would help, all of it would be most welcomed.

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 22/05/23 01:42 PM.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Aproximately since first few weeks in EA, when it was pointed out to me that no matter how much you try hard to avoid it, NPCs keep using it against you ... so there is no true way to ACTUALLY avoid it ...
This describes ^ the major issue, that it cannot be avoided if you find this change to the D&D RAW unfun and annoying. As I've said before I'm fine with Larian's sense of humor and general goofiness in their DoS games and if this was a DoS game, while I would still find all the shoving people 20-30ft annoying, it would fit the DoS setting. D&D is not DoS and while humor is great it should be in the story not the game mechanics which clearly and consistently, over many editions, attempts to be grounded in real world physics so as to highlight magic and class abilities that break that grounding and make them special. If any/all NPCs can casually shove an armored fighter 20-30ft without having to even use an action (which clearly breaks established D&D RAW) it nerfs the special nature of Melee classes and their ability to control the battlefield and protect non-melee classes. The same goes with the other major design choice by Larian: the AOE potion throwing nonsense that gelds special class abilities of Healers essentially giving the special ranged and AOE healing abilities from Clerics to everyone. If every class is special at everything then no class is special at anything.

There is an unseemly level of hubris at Larian that they believe that it's okay to put their personal spin, one that changes the very nature of D&D combat, on an established IP just because they think it's "kewl". Save those things for your own IPs.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Undomiel
positioning yourself on the elevated bridges allows for an easy resolution of the encounter
Once i had the same idea ...
Sadly, some Duergars are equipped with Arrow of Roaring Thunder.

I must admit it was really an easy and fast resolution ...
Sadly not even close to desired resolution, that would include my party being alive at the end of that encounter. :-/

Rag you are aware that you can rob these arrows from that particular NPCs? Stolen items are then no longer used by the NPCs. This is not ideal for every encounter, but only as long as the NPCs are still neutral. But here it should work. wink

Last edited by Lotus Noctus; 25/05/23 04:22 AM.
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Originally Posted by Lotus Noctus
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Undomiel
positioning yourself on the elevated bridges allows for an easy resolution of the encounter
Once i had the same idea ...
Sadly, some Duergars are equipped with Arrow of Roaring Thunder.

I must admit it was really an easy and fast resolution ...
Sadly not even close to desired resolution, that would include my party being alive at the end of that encounter. :-/

Rag you are aware that you can rob these arrows from that particular NPCs? Stolen items are then no longer used by the NPCs. This is not ideal for every encounter, but only as long as the NPCs are still neutral. But here it should work. wink

Metagaming to avoid a bad mechanic... Interresting.
Not working on the boat though.


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Well, its not necesarily metagaming ...
Technicaly even when you enter the room for the first time, you can steal their equipment ... but i agree it dont exactly feel right. :-/

Good point about boat tho ... that scenario is extra anoying, even tho one must admit that its the only place in whole EA where pushing characters to instant death makes sense ... concidering that its just one HUGE edge. laugh


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Well, its not necesarily metagaming ...
Technicaly even when you enter the room for the first time, you can steal their equipment ... but i agree it dont exactly feel right. :-/

Good point about boat tho ... that scenario is extra anoying, even tho one must admit that its the only place in whole EA where pushing characters to instant death makes sense ... concidering that its just one HUGE edge. laugh

No it doesn't make sense. Boats sails on water and falling in water does not even mean instant death for 2 years old kid.
But I guess it doesn't make sense to discuss about what would make sense or not.

Instant death is boring in video games and all kind of games assume that.
Hopefully we don't bleed to death each time a bullet hit us or each time we have a big crash in a racing game... It doesn't make sense, but it makes better video games.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 25/05/23 01:02 PM.

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I dont know many 2y old kinds who would be sailing cave lakes in heavy armor ...


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For me, it's actually one of the most interesting battles (alongside the one with the lava) because you fight in extremely tight spaces with cliffs, and the usual height advantages are not present. In one playthrough with the main character, I won the initiative, climbed aboard the duergar's ship, used Repulsor, and the battle ended immediately.

In general, shoving is a useful mechanic to counter ranged characters who would otherwise have too much advantage from heights (since there are no abilities like Teleportation in DOS2 in BG3).

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Originally Posted by Undomiel
In general, shoving is a useful mechanic to counter ranged characters who would otherwise have too much advantage from heights (since there are no abilities like Teleportation in DOS2 in BG3).
Larian’s high ground bonus is home brewed as well, but after it was nerfed to just giving +2 I like it.

The reason I like it now, is that +2 is something you can deal with in a variety of way. It’s a bonus, but not an overwhelming one like it was with free advantage. While being able to push enemies down is good, making it more situational (like only if they are within a vicinity of a cliff) wouldn’t hurt, as there is a variety of spells and items one can use to counteract the high ground bonus. Push being as powerful as it is, makes it the best option available at almost all times, which is boring from an instrumental play point of view.

I don’t hate push in encounters without major drops - though I think push is still poorly balanced: solid damage and high ground advantage does make shoving enemies a bit of a no brainer option, but it doesn’t dominate the battle’s outcome like in some of the later encounters. Still, I think full attack action cost would be a better fit, than a bonus actions.

In underdark and forge, though, push is inexcusable.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Undomiel
In general, shoving is a useful mechanic to counter ranged characters who would otherwise have too much advantage from heights (since there are no abilities like Teleportation in DOS2 in BG3).
Larian’s high ground bonus is home brewed as well, but after it was nerfed to just giving +2 I like it.

The reason I like it now, is that +2 is something you can deal with in a variety of way. It’s a bonus, but not an overwhelming one like it was with free advantage. While being able to push enemies down is good, making it more situational (like only if they are within a vicinity of a cliff) wouldn’t hurt, as there is a variety of spells and items one can use to counteract the high ground bonus. Push being as powerful as it is, makes it the best option available at almost all times, which is boring from an instrumental play point of view.

I don’t hate push in encounters without major drops - though I think push is still poorly balanced: solid damage and high ground advantage does make shoving enemies a bit of a no brainer option, but it doesn’t dominate the battle’s outcome like in some of the later encounters. Still, I think full attack action cost would be a better fit, than a bonus actions.

In underdark and forge, though, push is inexcusable.


The strength of the shove mechanic derives from the level design that favors verticality. Additionally, ranged characters also benefit from it, as it increases their range, providing another significant advantage. It is quite evident that knocking down enemies results in solid damage, which is not only expected but also realistic. In fact, I would be disappointed if it were any different. However, the decision to use the shove mechanic is not always straightforward. In my opinion, it could be considered an attack instead of a full action, allowing warriors at level 5 to attack and shove in the same turn. This adjustment seems like a good compromise.

Last edited by Undomiel; 26/05/23 12:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by Undomiel
The strength of the shove mechanic derives from the level design that favors verticality. Additionally, ranged characters also benefit from it, as it increases their range, providing another significant advantage. It is quite evident that knocking down enemies results in solid damage, which is not only expected but also realistic. In fact, I would be disappointed if it were any different. However, the decision to use the shove mechanic is not always straightforward. In my opinion, it could be considered an attack instead of a full action, allowing warriors at level 5 to attack and shove in the same turn. This adjustment seems like a good compromise.
Less of a level design, and more of a riddiculous shove range. It would be perfectly fine to be shovable if you stand near a ledge. Not so much if the ledge is what seems like 20 meters away, and your full plated warrior still gets thrown like a freesby into magma.

Fortunately, shove distance and its action cost should be adjustable through mods, if it won't get ironed out during final balance pass.

Last edited by Wormerine; 26/05/23 01:08 PM.
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Can't the ranged characters that already have "significant" advantage use shove against anyone that comes for him ?

Shove is not at all a mechanic that "counter ranged character". It just counter everyone.
You don't seem to realize that melee characters are hurted by shove a lot more than casters and ranged characters.

You are shoved but not dead : walk again while they hit you, or become a ranged character.
You have shove but he's not dead : walk again while they still hit you, or become a ranged character.

Such verticality, as well as the general map design and the bottomless pit, is precisely what makes shove a problem as currently balanced.
Seems more reasonable to balance shove better than to change the entire map.

Is there a problem with Thunderwave ? No, because it is a balanced choice among many others.
The ennemy don't use it often. I don't remember ever being insta killed because of it, and they surely never use it to wake their allies up.

But there is a problem with Roaring Thunder arrows, especially because they are used by ennemies in the underdark (bottomless pit everywhere).
There is a problem with Dror Razglin pushing skills, especially because of the spider pit and the bottomless pit.
There is a problem with the Minotaurs ability to pushn because you fight them right next to bottomless pit.
There is a problem with shove because everyone can dash + shove and because it allow to wake characters up.

And there is a problem with everything listed above because the distance you have to move away from a ledge not to being pushed is ridiculously high.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 26/05/23 01:20 PM.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Undomiel
The strength of the shove mechanic derives from the level design that favors verticality. Additionally, ranged characters also benefit from it, as it increases their range, providing another significant advantage. It is quite evident that knocking down enemies results in solid damage, which is not only expected but also realistic. In fact, I would be disappointed if it were any different. However, the decision to use the shove mechanic is not always straightforward. In my opinion, it could be considered an attack instead of a full action, allowing warriors at level 5 to attack and shove in the same turn. This adjustment seems like a good compromise.
Less of a level design, and more of a riddiculous shove range. It would be perfectly fine to be shovable if you stand near a ledge. Not so much if the ledge is what seems like 20 meters away, and your full plated warrior still gets thrown like a freesby into magma.

Fortunately, shove distance and its action cost should be adjustable through mods, if it won't get ironed out during final balance pass.

Yes, they are still duergar, even when wearing full plate armor. The distance, however, is calculated based on the character's strength and the opponent's weight. Furthermore, we are still talking about humanoid beings with supernatural powers, especially when considering that at certain levels of strength, it can be comparable to that of giant creatures.

I still find it plausible within the D&D ecosystem.

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No, the distance is not based on character's strenght and opponent's weight.
The distance is the same for everyone and the weight define the %to succeed.

EDIT : my bad, I have to check that in the code. It's not as simple as I thought it was.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 26/05/23 01:24 PM.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
No, the distance is not based on character's strenght and opponent's weight.
The distance is the same for everyone and the weight define the %to succeed.
Couple patches ago they made it so strength would influence shove and throw distance. So last time I played my bard had a pitiful shove distance (and more or less what I think the shove distance should be, though the ridiculously high arc made it look awkward).

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Mods already reduce shove distance, add shove prone and make it an action, and use extra attack

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Can MODS remove Shove completely from the game? Or is the ability hard coded in?


It just reminded me of the bowl of goat's milk that old Winthrop used to put outside his door every evening for the dust demons. He said the dust demons could never resist goat's milk, and that they would always drink themselves into a stupor and then be too tired to enter his room..
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Originally Posted by Count Turnipsome
Can MODS remove Shove completely from the game? Or is the ability hard coded in?

I don’t know anything about modding BG3 but I suppose this might be an option for some if available. Not for me, as I like the idea of Shove in principle, and do find it fun to use (and even used against me) in some fights. I’d even prefer it in its current form to not at all, though ideally would want it changed to an attack action, distance shortened and its use by enemy AI improved. Mods I guess could do that, and I’ll use one if necessary, but really think Larian should change the base game. Not everyone is comfortable using mods, and I don’t think it’s even an option for PS5 players.


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Originally Posted by The Red Queen
I like the idea of Shove in principle, and do find it fun to use
Same here.
I see merit in Attack or Action suggestions, though.
Originally Posted by The Red Queen
(and even used against me) in some fights.
Watching the Lady Barbarian make Layzael FLY was comedy gold!

Last edited by Buba68; 27/05/23 11:05 AM.
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Mods can remove shove or change shove
Combat Actions changes it and also gives a shove prone option.

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