Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Class vs Character Levels and Magic

In past messaging, the devs have made it sound like the multi-class magic system wasn't going to be as punishing as it is in PnP. Does anyone have specifics on how this plays out?

Obviously some classes are more affected by this than others. Paladins don't need class levels to do their smites with higher slots and the INT based subclasses progress so slowly anyway that multi-classing with them is an improvement at pretty much any level.

Full casters on the other hand are significantly impacted in available spells vs spell slots when multi-classing and I would love to know how this works before launch day.

Thanks!

Oh also when it comes to similar Class vs Character levels, do we know how things like wildshape scaling are affected?

Not 100% sure and as far as I know no gameplay footage from the full game has shown multiclassing in action, but my impression is they are trying to separate to some extent the levels of each class to...so if you have 4 levels of barbarian and want to take a level of Wizard at level 5 that level will not exactly be the 1st level of Wizard so instead of receiving the level 1 stuff you receive what a wizard would receive at level 5 without having the stuff of levels 1-4...though I am assuming there is some exception there for something like subclass and maybe level 1 cantrips. So in a way it would be like having level 5 wizard benefits while only having one level of wizard.

I didn't understand sh*t about the new spell slots interaction. The Italian article where this was mentioned either made s poor job of conveying the meaning of Nick's words or Nick himself made a terrible job explaining things. Or I am stupid.

I highly doubt it will work like that or they've thrown any semblance of balance out of the window...

It is pure speculation until the game is released anyway. There simply isn't enough information about multiclassing, except that they've removed the ability restrictions (which is a decision I think will prove to be bad).

Larian hasn't given specifics, aside from [paraphrased] "we want multiclassed spellcasters to get access to higher level spells (like fireball) earlier."

Do you treat your total level as your spellcasting class level for spells known? I.e., a 10 Barbarian/1 Wizard can learn 6th level wizard spells.
Do you only add up your "caster class" levels? I.e., a 10 Barbarian/1 Wizard can only learn 1st level spells. But a level 10 Cleric/level 1 Wizard can learn 6th level Cleric and Wizard spells?
Do you get a +1 to the effective spellcasting level of your lower-level spellcasting class? I.e., a 10 Barbarian/1 Wizard can cast 2nd level Wizard spells?

Who knows.

This is definitely the question I most want answered so I can figure out my class plans, tbh. I'm okay with whatever they decide, I just need to know :v) It's Larian so balance is always a little questionable, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see 'you just get the combined total of your caster levels and all spells for all those classes'. Which I'd honestly be okay with, for all that yes it yeets balance right out the window.

I mean, Divine Soul Sorcerers exist, so WoTC obviously doesn't feel like having access to 90% of all spells is a problem.

I have zero evidence for this; but from a pure easy-of-use and ease-of-coding perspective I am expecting the game to track Full Caster, Half Caster, and Warlock levels as seperate tallies, and provide spell slots based on those tallies: and then let you choose spells from the lists based on your highest caster level in each category.

So a Level 4 Battle Master/Level 1 Wizard will have 2 level 1 slots and can choose Level 1 spells.

A Level 3 Cleric/Level 2 Wizard will have four level 1 slots, four level 2 slots, and two level 3 slots and can prepare any spell of either class up to level 3 spells.

A Level 3 Warlock/Level 2 Ranger will have two level 1 slots and 2 level 2 warlock slots, and can choose level 1 ranger spells and level 2 warlock spells. Etc etc

They've unlocked things with reckless abandon before (scrolls, ba hide, ba disengage) so I'm expecting some terrible unbalanced mess with caster multiclassing after their statement.

The worst would be allowing max spell level for all caster classes be determined by character level or highest caster level. But those would also be the simplest and I can't see them making the rules more complicated than 5e. Probably character level so players can't "ruin" their characters by going Cleric 6 / Wizard 6.

We will have Cleric 11 / Wizard 1 casting Disintegrate or something asinine like that. Single class casters rendered obsolete.

And why exactly does the game need this rule change when you can already respec at will?

From what I've understood you get the highest spell slot level you have access to to unlock known spells. Currently in 5e you can end up having higher spell slot levels than known spells (combining half casters with casters for an example, since spell slots are calculated based on a mixed progression). But I could be wrong.

Yeah, I never multiclass casters, so always struggle to remember the system for this, even after all these years. But it is quite plainly explained in the PHB. With so many rule changes by Larian for supposed inclusiveness and simpleness, this one is definetly one I could see them changing from PHB.

In 5e, Spell Slots are determined by your Total Caster Level, which you calculate by adding 1 from full casters, 1/2 from half casters, etc. Warlock is its own thing. A Wizard 3/Cleric 3 has the same # of and level of spell slots as a Wizard 6.

Spells Known & Prepared are determined by your individual classes. A level 3 wizard/X "other" is effectively just considered a pure level 3 wizard when determining how many wizard spells they know and can prepare each day. But they can upcast their wizard spells into higher level spell slots (if they have any).

This is what I'm worried about the most. We have respec so they don't need to be ruining the balance between single/multi class. Also, I'm assuming the level up screen for multiclassing will work similarly to choosing your subclass. In that it will show you what you would get as you choose a different option. If I stay wizard then I'll get fireball, if I go something else then I lose don't get that spell this level.

The pros and cons are what makes building your character fun. I don't want multiclassing to have all the benefits with none of the drawbacks.

Larian isn't big on drawbacks or being able to screw up your build, so honestly I suspect that's what they'll try to highly get rid of. The example they used in the interview was MCing and getting fireball later and how they didn't like that.

Oh, multiclassing is going to be hilariously broken on release. Even besides the baffling comment about fireball, there are so many specific rules about how different class features are supposed to work with each other that there's no way they've implemented it all (correctly), especially since they seem to look at dnd rules a little contemptuously, like they're more of this "stuffy old inconvenience" than something that exists for a reason.

E.g. I'm almost expecting saving throw proficiencies and extra attacks to stack.

This will be a hot mess. The only way they can 'balance' this out is by giving pure classes some ridiculous features at level 12. If they even want pure classes to exist.

This really bothers me in BG3 development.

I'm not a rules lawyer or saying that 5e is the best ruleset ever. I'm not biased one way or the other, I just want GOOD rules that are fun and balanced without obvious no-brainer exploits.

5e rules are generally very good and balanced. The class design is very strong. Classes get their identity as much from what they can do as what other classes can't. It makes playing a certain class feel great and unique. Divinity rules are terrible in comparison. Armor mechanics are 0/5, mmo cooldowns, massive inflated HP pools. Very generic unimaginative video game stuff. Classes are a diluted mess where they don't mean anything. But it seems DOS is the love child of Larian systems designers and everything else is inferior and should be assimilated. Nothing else has a chance of thriving over there, like D&D with a vastly different (better for RPG) design foundation.

Cleric 4 / Sorcerer 1 needs to be able to Wet + Lightning Bolt for 16d6 because it's their idea of fun? Not mine. And not D&D's.

It is however the idea of fun of a lot of people, including general RPG fans, MMO players, DOS2 fans, etc. It's definitely a more widely appreciated approach in a lot of ways. And honestly, I'm not sure they really DO want pure classes to exist. They're really excited for multiclassing and how you can respec, from what I've seen. They don't want multiclassing to really hurt you, they seem to want it to be more like putting multiple points in things in DOS2. Honestly I'm fine/happy with it, but I was never a big D&D fan to begin with. I'm here because of Larian first and foremost.

Larian have certainly said that they see multi-classing as something for experienced players and that they’ve tried not to draw attention to it for newer players. So, given the intended audience for it is likely to be the least in favour of it being boringly overpowered, I’m going to remain optimistic for now that any tweaks to the way it works will be relatively minor. I’d definitely appreciate some clarity on how spell progression will be handled, though, as I agree the comment about getting fireball earlier was somewhat concerning!

Yeah, that's what I meant. In your Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 example I think Larian plans to give the multiclassed version access to all spells that they have spell slots for - so you could pick cleric spells as if you were a level 6 cleric and not level 3 - I guess wizards will maybe even on their level up then be able to learn spells as a wizard level 6 (not to mention the mess that their access to scrolls will allow). If Larian goes this way, you can sprinkle 1 level of Wizard into every other full caster and never bother to go higher on the Wizard and still have the full range of spells and full amount of spell slots. I guess that is also why they didn't bother fixing healing spell scrolls which wizards could learn in EA.