We don't support it because it's change that ripples through to other stories. I like the ending the cycle of abuse story and that story is diminished if there are no negative aspects to AA pursuit of power and nursing of his worst traits.
He already has many negative traits, he is controlling and obsessive, it's very clear is not a healthy relationship and everyone knows it. Why do we have to explain it again? Changing facial expressions to more neutral or consensual ones does not eliminate the fact that he is still your master and you his pet and he has control over you. The cycle of abuse is still here if you like it and you could see it before they added patch 6 kisses. There must be a solution for the different opinions and ways of role-playing your character in his romance and if possible avoid the violence shown in these kisses with Tav/Durge's face. It is unnecessary and triggering for many people. Changing them doesn't mean changing Astarion.
I agree with you Mirmi, this is the most simplest request ever that all it takes is just disabling a facial expression during a kiss or replacing it with another.
It changes the story from a cycle of abuse story into a consensual D/s relationship. It's a change that alters the meaning of the story. In the story, AA 's name is the next on a long list of vampire lord abusers. I understand why people want to see AA as a kinky dom and not the next Cazador but that's not supported by the text of the story.
While I'm happy that Larian responds to requests from players I don't agree with some of changes made so far. I just can't believe that Lae'zel would stay with squid lover . . . Even Wyll bringing prisoners for his squid lover to eat . . .
Why not ask for a happy ending for evil Durge and Dark Justiciar SH? One in which Shadowheart has capacity for love, is not filled with bitterness and suspicion, does not ruminate on loss and places her lover on an equal footing with her goddess? Why no allow evil Durge to giggle instead of looking surprised and hurt when SH turns her suspicions on her lover?
Why not ask for a nice ending for the Vlaakith loyalist lovers?
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Instead of the support you can get on the forum at least in a specific thread, I'm seeing "no, you deserve it, this is how the story should go, enjoy it" again and I'm sick of it.
No one is saying you deserve it, please don't put those words in my mouth. But this is what I ask you to understand. We don't support it because it's change that ripples through to other stories. I like the ending the cycle of abuse story and that story is diminished if there are no negative aspects to AA pursuit of power and nursing of his worst traits.
The ending with AAstarion is already a happy ending for those who want to see it that way. There are dialogue choices in which you can fully support AAstarion in his plans of conquest or decide to travel with him. I don't see anything bad or abusive about this. The same goes for the party: the TAV can fully agree with AAstarion. There is no sign that he is being forced to say certain things or that he is being subjugated by Astarion. So the possibility of interpreting the relationship with AAstarion as non-abusive is already in the game. So I doubt that making TAV's face happy during kisses with AAstarion will ruin the point of the "breaking the cycle of abuse" story. You and many other player already see Astarion's story in that way even before patch 6, when kiss with AAstarion were normal. The kiss with Aastarion were normal since the official release of the game and anyone has ever complaied about it, saying that kiss wasn't in character with AAstarion or that kind of kiss ruins the meaning of “breaking yhe cycle of abuse”. As others have already pointed out, it is with this patch, with the new kissing animations that the relationship with AAstarion has become non-consensual, going against practically everything that the player/TAV has consciously chosen to do... even asking to be kissed ! Then please, don't write that AAstarion is a kinky dom anymore! Not everyone (in fact almost no one) ascends Astarion to satisfy a sexual fantasy!
I agree with you that these elements were there before. Indeed I'm surprised this discussion didn't happen when Astarian - who, as a spawn was fairly asexual - enjoyed taking Tav in way that demonstrated little concern for Tav's pleasure.
Removing the look of fear removes the creeping horror from the story. "oh my god what I have I done"? Something that features in all the ascension romances. What happened to the the shadowheart I loved? Why is ascending Gale acing this way? It also waters down the cycle of abuse story. Vampire lord like to keep their precious pets in a state of fear
Perhaps a trigger warning at some point in the game?
It changes the story from a cycle of abuse story into a consensual D/s relationship. .
It's the opposite. These new OOC kisses turn the consensual D/s relationship into a cycle of abuse story (very much illogical). And people got triggered by it. Are you romancing Ascended Astarion?
If they wanted to make a cycle of abuse story, they should remove: 1.) AA turning the player by choice 2.) AA consistently asking the PC what they want, and honoring that free choice 3.) His consistent use of the words "us" "we" and "our" 4.) His dialogue with Minthara in which he denies her request to become immortal, citing that he only intends to share it with Tav/durge 5.) The prophet of Bhaals prophecy of dying in each other's arms at the end of the world 6.) His "lovers forever", and "ask me anything and it will be yours" dialogue 7.) The three bites and sharing his blood method of turning you. 8.) The PC waking the next day, without the three day, buried and resurrected spawn method of turning 9.) AA telling Tav he doesn't understand his power yet, and begrudgingly asking them to be patient with him (consistent with his "I'm doing this to keep us safe" story line) 10.) AA going along with Tavs desires during the epilogue 11.) Everyone commenting how healthy and well you are in the epilogue 12.) The dialogue where you can ask him to be gentle when he turns you, and he complies 13.) AA's post Orin fight dialogue to durge, telling them how free they are to decide who they want to be 14.) Tav standing in the sun post tadpole 15.) AA appearing in the epilogue at all, frankly. Cazador never would've gone to a dirt party with Astarion in the woods. Edit: 16.) The "You're the one that I want. The one that I love," line when you don't immediately ask to become a vampire. 17.) The epilogue line, "My power would be nothing without you. You complete me."
I'm sure I'll think of more. But if Larian wants to lean in, by all means, lean in. Actually write a good, abusive character. Make it *consistent*. Don't just throw in a dv kiss scene. It's a gross and heavy handed way to handle a sensitive topic.
Last edited by Natasy; 13/03/2406:27 PM. Reason: More reasons
If they wanted to make a cycle of abuse story, they should remove: 1.) AA turning the player by choice 2.) AA consistently asking the PC what they want, and honoring that free choice 3.) His consistent use of the words "us" "we" and "our" 4.) His dialogue with Minthara in which he denies her request to become immortal, citing that he only intends to share it with Tav/durge 5.) The prophet of Bhaals prophecy of dying in each other's arms at the end of the world 6.) His "lovers forever", and "ask me anything and it will be yours" dialogue 7.) The three bites and sharing his blood method of turning you. 8.) The PC waking the next day, without the three day, buried and resurrected spawn method of turning 9.) AA telling Tav he doesn't understand his power yet, and begrudgingly asking them to be patient with him (consistent with his "I'm doing this to keep us safe" story line) 10.) AA going along with Tavs desires during the epilogue 11.) Everyone commenting how healthy and well you are in the epilogue 12.) The dialogue where you can ask him to be gentle when he turns you, and he complies 13.) AA's post Orin fight dialogue to durge, telling them how free they are to decide who they want to be 14.) Tav standing in the sun post tadpole 15.) AA appearing in the epilogue at all, frankly. Cazador never would've gone to a dirt party with Astarion in the woods. Edit: 16.) The "You're the one that I want. The one that I love," line when you don't immediately ask to become a vampire. 17.) The epilogue line, "My power would be nothing without you. You complete me."
I'm sure I'll think of more. But if Larian wants to lean in, by all means, lean in. Actually write a good, abusive character. Make it *consistent*. Don't just throw in a dv kiss scene. It's a gross and heavy handed way to handle a sensitive topic.
Thank you for putting it so succinctly, Natasy.
I must confess I am getting a little frustrated that so much of the conversation seems to be dominated by people wanting to discuss whether or not A.A. is a nice guy (of course he isn't but that is irrelevant) and people who seem to think that imposing their personal head-cannon onto others is perfectly ok in an RPG and completely in line with what Larian intended, despite statements from the company directly stating player agency is important to them.
We don't support it because it's change that ripples through to other stories. I like the ending the cycle of abuse story and that story is diminished if there are no negative aspects to AA pursuit of power and nursing of his worst traits.
You're asking to be heard and understand that your vision of the story is about the cycle of violence and it's the only true direction of the story. And you completely ignore if other players' vision of the story differs from yours. Why your viewpoint must be the only and correct one. Why, to satisfy you as players, does it have to stay the way it STILL is after patch 6, when before that patch EVERYONE was happy with it and given the opportunity for choice both when playing "victim and cycle of violence" and when playing "eternal lovers"?
I think the opposite, limiting and telling the story in one direction comes down to moralizing about bad and good, white and black. I'll say it again, upon release, including up until patch 5 the game left choices for your game. You want to see a "victim," you see it; you want to see a "vampire couple," you see it. You play your game and make your decisions as you see it. That doesn't mean all players have to follow your route. I don't interfere at all in my game as much as possible. The options of "silent" and "(name) it's your decision, I'll support you" are my favorites. But that doesn't mean you have to play the same way.
I appreciate the effort that went into that but I have a very different interpretation of those scenes. I very much appreciate you making reference to the words of the romance
1-3
I think::
a) this is a contract like the other contracts in the story and
b) that the romances run on parallel paths
You sign once and obey afterward. Have you even spoken with Mizorra about obedient, contracted Wyll? She like the game she plays with him, she likes seeing Wyll squirm but she hides how much she cares for him. He's her best hunter and wants to protect him.
So yes, you consent once and then you decide to go forward without a safeword.
5. Haven't seen that one
6. He cares for his pet. He just expects it kneel when he says kneel.
7 - 9 He does share one drop of blood with you. You are his favorite.
But compare this to how it's supposed to work. As he describes it at first the vampire drinks from the spawn, the spawn from the vampire and then freedom. But he granted you a single drop. This is so he can maintain control. AA is not granting you freedom, no safe words for you.
He's putting roses in the links of the chains that bind you but you are bound.
As far as rejecting Mithara I suspect that's aimed at her because he also makes it clear that he is going to be father to a coven of spawn. You will be the favored slave, the top dog, his most precious possession and no one will get to abuse you but him. But there will be others and, like Mizorra, he's going to give your leash tug if you are naughty.
10. See what happens if the pet is unruly
Do you ever question if AA is telling you the truth? Just like you did when he told you he loved you in Act 1? That perhaps the sly looks on the face on face of the charlatan mean that he's not being honest?
And what do you make of the end the cycle of abuse dialogues?
It changes the story from a cycle of abuse story into a consensual D/s relationship. .
It's the opposite. These new OOC kisses turn the consensual D/s relationship into a cycle of abuse story (very much illogical). And people got triggered by it. Are you romancing Ascended Astarion?
If they wanted to make a cycle of abuse story, they should remove: 1.) AA turning the player by choice 2.) AA consistently asking the PC what they want, and honoring that free choice 3.) His consistent use of the words "us" "we" and "our" 4.) His dialogue with Minthara in which he denies her request to become immortal, citing that he only intends to share it with Tav/durge 5.) The prophet of Bhaals prophecy of dying in each other's arms at the end of the world 6.) His "lovers forever", and "ask me anything and it will be yours" dialogue 7.) The three bites and sharing his blood method of turning you. 8.) The PC waking the next day, without the three day, buried and resurrected spawn method of turning 9.) AA telling Tav he doesn't understand his power yet, and begrudgingly asking them to be patient with him (consistent with his "I'm doing this to keep us safe" story line) 10.) AA going along with Tavs desires during the epilogue 11.) Everyone commenting how healthy and well you are in the epilogue 12.) The dialogue where you can ask him to be gentle when he turns you, and he complies 13.) AA's post Orin fight dialogue to durge, telling them how free they are to decide who they want to be 14.) Tav standing in the sun post tadpole 15.) AA appearing in the epilogue at all, frankly. Cazador never would've gone to a dirt party with Astarion in the woods. Edit: 16.) The "You're the one that I want. The one that I love," line when you don't immediately ask to become a vampire. 17.) The epilogue line, "My power would be nothing without you. You complete me."
I'm sure I'll think of more. But if Larian wants to lean in, by all means, lean in. Actually write a good, abusive character. Make it *consistent*. Don't just throw in a dv kiss scene. It's a gross and heavy handed way to handle a sensitive topic.
18) You weren't afraid of me, I always appreciated that. (right after the ritual and as a friend in the epilogue) 19) The time will pass when we will meet a real challenge. (in romance, speaking of fighting together against those who interfere with plans) 20) The whole thing with Karlah and the trip to hell to fix her engine (he refuses if just a friend) 21) The whole Absolute Ending.
that imposing their personal head-cannon onto others is perfectly ok in an RPG and completely in line with what Larian intended,
I'm not sure that that I should reply because we've seemed to have come to an accord but I will say simply that this is exactly the way I see the requests to remove the facial expressions. It's a request made people who want to preserve their head cannon in opposition to the text of the romance.
Which is understandable and it illustrates a flaw of the cinematic approach to story telling. It makes it harder to maintain head cannon when the images underline the favored interpretation of the author.
In Act 1 you can: Directly tell him he's lying, and he won't deny it. You can tell him to "watch it" when he charms you in the stargazing scene. Roll perception to see that he doesn't mean a word he says. You're canonly only aware of when he's playing you.
My point is not to get counter arguments from you. You are free to headcanon AA however you please. My point is to say, if Larian truly meant to create an abusive character, the list I provided makes that fail. It leaves it too ambiguous. It leaves room for interpretation. It allows players to roleplay and 'misunderstand' what the devs are going for.
I do think it's ironic you haven't actually played the AA route. So you'll never hear things in context. You'll never see the nuance of the full story. You'll just see short clips of other people's opinions and adopt theirs. It's not a fair or true judgement of that storyline.
I will also say, no one can speak for Larian. Only Larian can. No one can claim to have a special connection with the writers, that they personally *know* what they intended, and different lenses and interpretations are wrong because they know Larain better than anyone else.
If you don't even play AA, why are you interested in leaving feedback for a storyline you haven't and refuse to participate in? Why should the devs make AA cater to players who don't even play that line, so it won't effect their playthrough?
Last edited by Natasy; 13/03/2407:21 PM. Reason: Misspelling
that imposing their personal head-cannon onto others is perfectly ok in an RPG and completely in line with what Larian intended,
I'm not sure that that I should reply because we've seemed to have come to an accord but I will say simply that this is exactly the way I see the requests to remove the facial expressions. It's a request made people who want to preserve their head cannon in opposition to the text of the romance.
Which is understandable and it illustrates a flaw of the cinematic approach to story telling. It makes it harder to maintain head cannon when the images underline the favored interpretation of the author.
How can you have a head canon about what is supposed to be your own character? Saying that your own character isn't scared shouldn't be a head canon and they shouldn't be forcing that onto the player, for a number of reasons.
Do you ever question if AA is telling you the truth? Just like you did when he told you he loved you in Act 1? That perhaps the sly looks on the face on face of the charlatan mean that he's not being honest?
And what do you make of the end the cycle of abuse dialogues?
Can I ask you the same questions about Spawn? The only time you can read the thoughts of Astarion - after his ascension. And why you didn't post the scene where you try to break up with SA? Where he tells you that he sacrificed everything to be with you.
The story is inconsistent now and that's all.
Really, this "cycle of abuse" story is beginning to get a little old
If they wanted to make a cycle of abuse story, they should remove: 1.) AA turning the player by choice 2.) AA consistently asking the PC what they want, and honoring that free choice 3.) His consistent use of the words "us" "we" and "our" 4.) His dialogue with Minthara in which he denies her request to become immortal, citing that he only intends to share it with Tav/durge 5.) The prophet of Bhaals prophecy of dying in each other's arms at the end of the world 6.) His "lovers forever", and "ask me anything and it will be yours" dialogue 7.) The three bites and sharing his blood method of turning you. 8.) The PC waking the next day, without the three day, buried and resurrected spawn method of turning 9.) AA telling Tav he doesn't understand his power yet, and begrudgingly asking them to be patient with him (consistent with his "I'm doing this to keep us safe" story line) 10.) AA going along with Tavs desires during the epilogue 11.) Everyone commenting how healthy and well you are in the epilogue 12.) The dialogue where you can ask him to be gentle when he turns you, and he complies 13.) AA's post Orin fight dialogue to durge, telling them how free they are to decide who they want to be 14.) Tav standing in the sun post tadpole 15.) AA appearing in the epilogue at all, frankly. Cazador never would've gone to a dirt party with Astarion in the woods. Edit: 16.) The "You're the one that I want. The one that I love," line when you don't immediately ask to become a vampire. 17.) The epilogue line, "My power would be nothing without you. You complete me."
I'm sure I'll think of more. But if Larian wants to lean in, by all means, lean in. Actually write a good, abusive character. Make it *consistent*. Don't just throw in a dv kiss scene. It's a gross and heavy handed way to handle a sensitive topic.
18) You weren't afraid of me, I always appreciated that. (right after the ritual and as a friend in the epilogue) 19) The time will pass when we will meet a real challenge. (in romance, speaking of fighting together against those who interfere with plans) 20) The whole thing with Karlah and the trip to hell to fix her engine (he refuses if just a friend) 21) The whole Absolute Ending.
22. Don't be afraid, I'll protect you. Arai Oblodra. 23. Epilog. Everything I need stands before me. 24. Epilog. If TAB has become a mind eater. Lord A's less wrinkled brain emits love hormones.
11 to elaborate: : We can tell Jahaira that my home is near Astarion. Gale can be told that I have found my love. Sheduhart tells us that we look good and are clearly not sleeping on the ground.
Roll perception to see that he doesn't mean a word he says.
Ackshually . . . It's roll perception to see that he may not mean a word he says. The questions of whether he is lying or not is never confirmed by the narrator. Do do so would spoil some of the fun of the romance. "I know he's probably lying but it would be nice to believe, wouldn't it"?
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If you don't even play AA, why are you interested in leaving feedback for a storyline you haven't and refuse to participate in? Why should the devs make AA cater to players who don't even play that line, so it won't effect their playthrough?
1. It's a discussion forum and I enjoy discussing the game
2. I think I answered that a few pages back. I think the changes would ripple through to other stories and diminish the impact of the cycle of abuse story. I think the author deserves better.
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Can I ask you the same questions about Spawn?
I think Spawn lies to my Tav often. I know he's full of it but it's fun to play along. It's like a real world seduction, lol. When we first slept together I chose "let's have some fun" and that has been the theme of the sexual part of our romance. The other, more intimate, bit has been trying to peel back the facade and see the vulnerable, frighted man behind the mask.
In Astarion's romance (and the game in general), there are many inconsistencies. I believe this is due to the enormous task of anticipating all possible player reactions to provide an appropriate NPC response and offer the player the right tone consistent with the story they are building. These reactions range from stories where the player character is in harmony with the NPC to others with much more drama and pain. All are valid because the story is not one-directional, but takes into account the player's agency to construct itself. This is not a test of whether the NPC is abusive or not; it is a testament to respecting the player's ability to choose the tone of their story, unlike what has happened with the recent kisses that force a narrative onto the player and may hurt their sensibilities.
Apologies if the tone or choice of words is not correct; I am trying to offer an educated opinion, but English is not my first language.
We're not trying to figure out if he's honest with you or not in this thread. Each one has a different interpretation of the story and chooses different options that game already gives you. They're all valid.
I agree with Mirmi:
Originally Posted by Mirmi
I'll say it again, upon release, including up until patch 5 the game left choices for your game. You want to see a "victim," you see it; you want to see a "vampire couple," you see it. You play your game and make your decisions as you see it. That doesn't mean all players have to follow your route.
Here and in another thread many ideas have been given such as "tough/gentle" kisses. No character, no matter how evil they are in the game has non-consensual kisses, only Ascended and it has no sense if you agree to be with him and be his spawn/consort. Before patch 6 no one complained because everyone had their own story with their characters, but not now. New kisses are offensive for those who follow the evil path in game and enjoys it.
@KillerRabbit You seem worried because you think our request will ruin your experience and your headcanon but I disagree. Astarion's story will be the same but with some consensual kisses, like before, nothing more nothing less. And you can choose the romance you like the most.
