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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Is your argument that The Forgtten Realms is a nonsense non-setting where anything goes and everything is fine and acceptable at any point?

No, my argument is that WotC determines what is and what isn't canon. Not some random forum user.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
The consumers feelings do in fact matter because who do you think the setting is being made for?

The setting is being made for whomever will give WotC money. Whether this is long established fans, or new ones. They don't care. So long as they make money.

If WotC introduces lightsabers, blasters and the force they might alienate their existing fans, but they might also attract in a ton of Star Wars fans (And a massive lawsuit from Disney, but I digress) which could be acceptable if they still made acceptable profits.

Though, it's not like things being in a setting necessarily dictate much. Since it's up to other writers whether they include certain things in their stories. Like, if BG3 included iPhones and helicopters, it doesn't necessarily mean every future writer making a story set in FR has to include them. At worst all that would be necessary is for a BG4 to either include them or include a pretense for lacking them.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
If BG3 had been a failure and people had been complaining about how it didn't fit the pre-established tone of the setting, do you think WotC would stick to their guns and say that it's absolutely canon? No, they'd ignore its canonicity.

Sure. But we don't live in that world.

We live in a world where BG3 is a success and is canon. Ergo, everything in it is canon, despite any gripes of random people on a forum.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
The implication of your argument is that fans should just silently take whatever they're given as though WotC is doing them a favor.

When did I say that?

People are well within their right to complain about anything they like. It doesn't mean WotC will bend over backwards to cater to them.

My argument merely is that WotC has the final say on what is or isn't acceptable in THEIR IP.

Perhaps mass backlash might influence their decision, like if BG3 was a massive flop specifically because of something it introduced to the setting. But ultimately, it's under their control and it's their decision about what is or isn't canon.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
If George RR Martin were to say in the next Game of Thrones book that it's canon that cell phones exist and people travel around on motorcycles, then that's as much canon as anything going on with BG3 and the forgotten realms. You could argue that "since he's the author and IP holder, he's entitled to make the setting anything he wants" and it would be just as valid as what you're saying about WotC. People would still have every right to complain about it, dislike it, and stop buying the books.

How is that in any way relevant?

If George RR Martin added that stuff into his next book. People can complain. But it won't necessarily mean that the book stops being canon.

If people complain and then George RR Martin declares the book non-canon as a result. That is the only time the consumer sentiment influences the canon of his IP.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
The point being made was that Larian did not like the forgotten realms as it had existed before they were allowed to influence it, and as evidence, KR pointed to a number of things Larian included that run counter to the setting as it had previously been presented. It doesn't matter that those things can be allowed if WotC says they are, what matters is that they weren't there before and Larian added them in because they were unsatisfied with the setting as they had recieved it. The argument is that if Larian had been happy with the setting, they would not have added the things they did. What is and isn't canon is another discussion.

And the point I was making was that as WotC determines what is canon and as BG3 has been declared canon, then anything in BG3 is considered to be acceptable to the setting by those in charge of the IP.

Since the line I was responding to was that you cannot make the argument that because it exists in BG3 it is acceptable for the setting. Which is categorically untrue, because of WotC making BG3 canon.

Thus, according to the owners of the IP, everything that is in BG3 is acceptable to them. Hence we can consider everything in BG3 to be acceptable to the setting.

This doesn't make it undisputable, people are well within their rights to argue against anything in BG3 or other canon media. But the argument is there that as BG3 is canon, thus it is acceptable in the setting.

Paxil #941276 01/04/24 01:14 PM
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You keep arguing about canon, but this discussion isn't about canon, it's about the feel of the setting as it has existed up until this moment. Those things are related, but not inherently the same. You keep talking like the fact that BG3 is canon now suddenly makes the setting as it has been presented all this time suddenly fundamentally different. Yes, BG3 suddenly now makes the setting into one where factories and such can now exist and be normal. But it WAS NOT THAT BEFORE. It was once one thing, now it is a different thing. And what KR is saying is that it is now a different thing because Larian did not like the thing it was before. Larian were given permission to change that thing, yes, but they DID change it. Key word here being CHANGE, make it something it did not used to be. And KR is saying that the reason they changed it is that they were not happy with how it was before. She is suggesting that if they had been happy with it as it had been, they would not have included all the other stuff that they did. Because it did not exist or behave this way before Larian's influence, and the reason it does now is because Larian saw that it was not to their liking before and included new things to make it so. Things that WotC had to look at and decide they were okay with.

That's why I asked those questions about if new york were to be transplanted into the setting or if the setting is inherently a nonsense setting. Because even if WotC decides today that yes, all those things are true, that does not retroactively mean the decisions line up and make sense with what the setting has been before that decision. The only way that would be the case is if the Forgotten Realms were in fact a nonsense setting where anything goes.

Paxil #941278 01/04/24 01:32 PM
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My all times favorite D&D setting is by a long shot PLANESCAPE (2nd/3rd ed).
The 2023 reboot seems, pretty decent??? People say that its 5e but FEELS like 2nd (!) In hopes we might get a good D&D computer game out of it...

Its too bad really, because I feel that for THAT setting Larian would do an amazing job : Planescape is just all over the place with CRAZY mechanics.

Last edited by Count Turnipsome; 01/04/24 01:37 PM.

It just reminded me of the bowl of goat's milk that old Winthrop used to put outside his door every evening for the dust demons. He said the dust demons could never resist goat's milk, and that they would always drink themselves into a stupor and then be too tired to enter his room..
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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
You keep arguing about canon, but this discussion isn't about canon, it's about the feel of the setting as it has existed up until this moment.


"It used to not be like this."

"Well, it's like this now."

*

What is the discussion about? Liking or not liking the direction the setting is going? Or that these things don't belong in the setting? Because one of those discussion points is reasonable. The other one less so.

Also, what the setting *feels* like to you isn't necessarily the same as what the setting feels like to someone else. This is a shared setting with players all over the world.

The feeling of the setting includes all the clutter from numerous sources and planes travelling campaigns. One minute you could be in Cormyr and then poof, you're in Gamma World. It's the nature of the game, for better or worse. An old Greyhawk module had players exploring the crashed remains of an alien spaceship. When you're talking about the *feeling* of a setting, all of these things merge together in the minds of many players, and a lot of tabletop play encourages that mindset.

There are inventors and artificers and marvels of engineering.

Once upon a time the Realms didn't have dragonborn. Now they do. The timeline has progressed, significantly.

Last edited by JandK; 01/04/24 02:44 PM.
Paxil #941287 01/04/24 02:55 PM
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BG3 is NOT canon. WotC has repeatedly said over the years that anything from D&D video games is explicitly NOT cannon. Only WotC-released printed source materials are canon.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
BG3 is NOT canon. WotC has repeatedly said over the years that anything from D&D video games is explicitly NOT cannon. Only WotC-released printed source materials are canon.

Yeah, I guarantee you this follow up to Descent into Avernus is canon. Gortash is canon. Astarion is canon. Orpheus is canon.

The only question is which direction will be canon. Did Astarion ascend or not? Those are the type of things up for discussion when it comes to canon.

Denial doesn't change what we all know to be true. This is a big part of the Forgotten Realms setting now.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
You keep arguing about canon, but this discussion isn't about canon, it's about the feel of the setting as it has existed up until this moment.

This discussion and that discussion are different.

The point I raised is in direct response to the notion that something being in BG3 =/= suitable for the setting.

Wherein, it doesn't matter what has existed to this point. All that matters is the canon and WotC's take on the setting.

If WotC deems it appropriate to add to the setting, then you can argue that it is appropriate for the setting. This doesn't necessarily mean it is "Correct" or "Irrefutable". Only that an argument can be made.

Which is directly related to the snippet I quoted. You note I didn't quote an entire post and haven't responded to the entire post, only to the single line about this one particular thing.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
But it WAS NOT THAT BEFORE. It was once one thing, now it is a different thing. Larian were given permission to change that thing, yes, but they DID change it. Key word here being CHANGE

This entire ramble about change is meaningless. Like literally pointless.

We're discussing whether the CHANGES are appropriate for the setting (As there's always CHANGES when new story is written. As new characters, new lore, new stories get added to this ever CHANGING setting) so explicitly emphasising CHANGE has literally no relevance.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
That's why I asked those questions about if new york were to be transplanted into the setting or if the setting is inherently a nonsense setting. Because even if WotC decides today that yes, all those things are true, that does not retroactively mean the decisions line up and make sense with what the setting has been before that decision. The only way that would be the case is if the Forgotten Realms were in fact a nonsense setting where anything goes.

If WotC decides that those are true, then you can make the arguement that it makes sense because it is canon and they deem it acceptable for their IP.

Which is again, true. You as a consumer can disagree with that notion and make counter arguments that it is not narratively consistent with what has previously been written. But that doesn't preclude the argument that it is canon, therefore it makes sense.

JandK #941294 01/04/24 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by kanisatha
BG3 is NOT canon. WotC has repeatedly said over the years that anything from D&D video games is explicitly NOT cannon. Only WotC-released printed source materials are canon.

Yeah, I guarantee you this follow up to Descent into Avernus is canon. Gortash is canon. Astarion is canon. Orpheus is canon.

The only question is which direction will be canon. Did Astarion ascend or not? Those are the type of things up for discussion when it comes to canon.

Denial doesn't change what we all know to be true. This is a big part of the Forgotten Realms setting now.


"Denial doesn't change what we all know to be true." You should try practising what you preach. The events surrounding Gortash, Asterion and Orpheus in BG3 exist only in BG3. How is this "a big part of the Forgotten Realms setting now"? Has it featured in any WotC printed source material?

Taril #941295 01/04/24 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Taril
If WotC introduces lightsabers, blasters and the force they might alienate their existing fans, but they might also attract in a ton of Star Wars fans (And a massive lawsuit from Disney, but I digress) which could be acceptable if they still made acceptable profits.

WotC has already adapted this long ago. Not 100% one-to-one, of course, but in a modified form and you guys already mentioned some of it or encountered it in their Games:

lightsabers = Shadowblade (Mandos Darksaber) / Moonblade spells

blasters = ToBs Easter Egg the Big Metal Rod, or BG3s Crossbow of Arcane Force

the force = the Weave or monks Ki


Smoke powder is ok, even as a grenade, but using the next level of development as a firearm is too much in my humble opinion. It would also be a gross immersive design flaw as magic is already used in DnD as a power source after physical strength. This means that, unlike in our real world, no one should have the idea or need to generate propulsive power through dangerous explosive force.

It all depends on the measure. If you dose it well, I think it's fine, but if you overdo it and want to make an Arcanum or Planescape out of it, it's too much of a good thing with the Steam Punk influence. Even an Artificer class should be more like the A-Team, utilizing innovative low-tech inventions using existing materials rather than groundbreaking new discoveries. This is also much more in keeping with the spirit of Gond (e.g. water and steam propulsion and thus also in keeping with appropriate (Elemtar) magic).

Less is more!


This would be my recommendation, based on compromise, for "canonization". However, it is a matter for others to decide: I also puzzle all the time if there will be other versions of Kagha and Shadowheart or if they already are canon:

https://scryfall.com/card/clb/146/shadowheart-dark-justiciar

https://scryfall.com/card/clb/279/kagha-shadow-archdruid

Last edited by Lotus Noctus; 01/04/24 04:30 PM.
Jordaker #941297 01/04/24 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Jordaker
Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by kanisatha
BG3 is NOT canon. WotC has repeatedly said over the years that anything from D&D video games is explicitly NOT cannon. Only WotC-released printed source materials are canon.

Yeah, I guarantee you this follow up to Descent into Avernus is canon. Gortash is canon. Astarion is canon. Orpheus is canon.

The only question is which direction will be canon. Did Astarion ascend or not? Those are the type of things up for discussion when it comes to canon.

Denial doesn't change what we all know to be true. This is a big part of the Forgotten Realms setting now.


"Denial doesn't change what we all know to be true." You should try practising what you preach. The events surrounding Gortash, Asterion and Orpheus in BG3 exist only in BG3. How is this "a big part of the Forgotten Realms setting now"? Has it featured in any WotC printed source material?

You can either see the writing on the wall or you can't. If you can't acknowledge that BG3 is a big part of the Forgotten Realms setting now then you're not following what's happening. That's either a lack of vision or being in a state of denial.

Paxil #941299 01/04/24 04:25 PM
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Paxil #941300 01/04/24 04:27 PM
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One thing is for sure…these realms are not forgotten.

Paxil #941310 01/04/24 09:04 PM
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When it comes to WotC, best not to focus on what's "canon" and what isn't, because it contradicts itself, and the written works especially contradict the video games. Even with BG3's popularity, I have zero faith that what WotC ultimately takes from it for "canon" will line up with the game canon at all, especially as the years pass. The stuff WotC has "canonized" from the old games makes it look like they learned about the games from playing telephone . . . even when writers of new content also worked on those games. It's whatever they think will sell, not what's logical and consistent.

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Companies can declare canon all they like, but I learned a trick with The Last Jedi and The Return of Skywalker... when companies make worthless choices about their canon you can just stop paying attention.

(Incidentally, I don't have a strong opinion on Forgotten Realms canon, I just used an example of something I do have strong feelings about).

dwig #941313 01/04/24 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dwig
Companies can declare canon all they like, but I learned a trick with The Last Jedi and The Return of Skywalker... when companies make worthless choices about their canon you can just stop paying attention.

*cough* Abdel Adrian *cough*

Also, "Here Lies Kanon"... I think is an inside joke.

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Originally Posted by dwig
Companies can declare canon all they like, but I learned a trick with The Last Jedi and The Return of Skywalker... when companies make worthless choices about their canon you can just stop paying attention.

(Incidentally, I don't have a strong opinion on Forgotten Realms canon, I just used an example of something I do have strong feelings about).
Yup. Unless it is of exceptional quality, I'll never buy BG4/a DnD FR game with the bastard child of Sherlock Holms, Dumbo and Watto in it.

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Originally Posted by Jordaker
Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by kanisatha
BG3 is NOT canon. WotC has repeatedly said over the years that anything from D&D video games is explicitly NOT cannon. Only WotC-released printed source materials are canon.

Yeah, I guarantee you this follow up to Descent into Avernus is canon. Gortash is canon. Astarion is canon. Orpheus is canon.

The only question is which direction will be canon. Did Astarion ascend or not? Those are the type of things up for discussion when it comes to canon.

Denial doesn't change what we all know to be true. This is a big part of the Forgotten Realms setting now.


"Denial doesn't change what we all know to be true." You should try practising what you preach. The events surrounding Gortash, Asterion and Orpheus in BG3 exist only in BG3. How is this "a big part of the Forgotten Realms setting now"? Has it featured in any WotC printed source material?
Yes exactly. All of this gets to be canon only if WotC decides that it will be so. And yes, they could do so, for example by releasing a new game module based on the events of BG3 and featuring some of the characters from BG3. But they have not yet done any such thing, not announced any such thing. So as of now, BG3 is not canon, in the same way that BG 1 and 2 were never canon.

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Originally Posted by JandK
You can either see the writing on the wall or you can't. If you can't acknowledge that BG3 is a big part of the Forgotten Realms setting now then you're not following what's happening. That's either a lack of vision or being in a state of denial.

What writing on which wall? What is happening and where is it happening? Point me to it and I'll gladly check it out and change my opinion if necessary. Until then it's just your wishful thinking and projection.

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Originally Posted by Jordaker
Originally Posted by JandK
You can either see the writing on the wall or you can't. If you can't acknowledge that BG3 is a big part of the Forgotten Realms setting now then you're not following what's happening. That's either a lack of vision or being in a state of denial.

What writing on which wall? What is happening and where is it happening? Point me to it and I'll gladly check it out and change my opinion if necessary. Until then it's just your wishful thinking and projection.

We've both reiterated our disagreement with one another enough to make it clear we aren't going to agree. You ask for "proof." I say it's self-evident. There's no point in continuing to trace this circle.

JandK #941365 03/04/24 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by JandK
You ask for "proof." I say it's self-evident. There's no point in continuing to trace this circle.

Yes I ask for evidence (not "proof") and yes you keep saying it is self-evident without giving any evidence of its existence. What is self-evident is that you have no evidence let alone proof (with or without quote marks).

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