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#944716 08/07/24 12:29 PM
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Statstically, one of the most popular DnD classes and the fourth most popular class in BG3, ahead of even it's OP cousin the Bard just... straight up doesn't work in this game, for a variety of reasons.

First off, the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand Legedermain hasn't worked since launch, and yet we've had patches for everything from kissing animations to character appearances. This might not be quite so egregious if the level 9 ability worked, but as of the latest build, Magical Ambush is bugged too, rendering this class beyond broken.

Secondly the Assassin. Surprise is incredibly wonky, inconsistent and doesn't seem to proc properly. You can't reliably surprise 'neutral' enemies (arguably those that'd be MOST surprised by suddenly being attacked) without using some wonky tactics involving having a companion hit them while they tell you off for attacking them. This destroys the fantasy of the class horribly.

Thirdly - the Rogues seem to be missing things that make them viable Martial/Skilled classes. They have no second attack, which is rules as written. However, Sneak Attack is supposed to be once per-turn not once per round (confirmed by lead designer Jeremy Crawford here.) which makes sense when you think about the class fantasy again; getting in the extra blade with reactions from things like Sentinal or opportunity attack makes sense for the class, and should be rewarded (as well as matching the rules).

Finally, the it really seems like Fast Hands granting an extra attack just seems wildly imbalanced the other way? In the tabletop it's just for using tools, so a sensible balance seems like it might be that the free Bonus Action should be restricted to Cunning Action?

It honestly feels a little bit like distaste for the class at this point, like extra effort has gone into making them poor single-class options for players. When other classes have had a fair amount of homebrew work done to make them more fun in the game, you'd think Rogue might get similar sort of treatment - even if it's just to get them working as they're actually supposed to?

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Absolutely. I just posted yesterday that evo wizard's sculpt spells doesn't work around temporary allies and anyone with a yellow border. There are many issues around yellow type enemies, and they all need to be fixed. Rogue is a forced multiclass to be viable at the moment with half the features not working a year post release. It's crazy.

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I just wish Deathstalker Mantle worked with rogue sneak attack... Seemingly the best class to use the item with, and yet, if the sneak attack damage rider kills the target, the invis doesn't trigger. It was the first build I beat the game with, and it doesn't work anymore.

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Originally Posted by afx1234
I just wish Deathstalker Mantle worked with rogue sneak attack... Seemingly the best class to use the item with, and yet, if the sneak attack damage rider kills the target, the invis doesn't trigger. It was the first build I beat the game with, and it doesn't work anymore.

That's strange - I don't seem to have any trouble with this!

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Originally Posted by SJT_5
Originally Posted by afx1234
I just wish Deathstalker Mantle worked with rogue sneak attack... Seemingly the best class to use the item with, and yet, if the sneak attack damage rider kills the target, the invis doesn't trigger. It was the first build I beat the game with, and it doesn't work anymore.

That's strange - I don't seem to have any trouble with this!
The item is currently completely broken for me and doesn't work at all. If it still triggers on player damage you're lucky, honestly. Even if you have the old bug of it not triggering when an enemy is killed by a couple damage sources, it's better than immediately being kicked out of invisibility because it's not compatible with bless/temporary HP/literally any buff.

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Originally Posted by SJT_5
Originally Posted by afx1234
I just wish Deathstalker Mantle worked with rogue sneak attack... Seemingly the best class to use the item with, and yet, if the sneak attack damage rider kills the target, the invis doesn't trigger. It was the first build I beat the game with, and it doesn't work anymore.

That's strange - I don't seem to have any trouble with this!

I'm like 90% sure that it's a honor mode exclusive issue since it works perfectly fine on my first run (edit: nevermind, sneak attack doesn't trigger even with advantage from invis :|). The suite of changes they made to honor mode also bugged the item with sneak attacks. I just wish I knew whether it's a nerf or bug, so that I can move on lol.

Originally Posted by Silver/
Originally Posted by SJT_5
Originally Posted by afx1234
I just wish Deathstalker Mantle worked with rogue sneak attack... Seemingly the best class to use the item with, and yet, if the sneak attack damage rider kills the target, the invis doesn't trigger. It was the first build I beat the game with, and it doesn't work anymore.

That's strange - I don't seem to have any trouble with this!
The item is currently completely broken for me and doesn't work at all. If it still triggers on player damage you're lucky, honestly. Even if you have the old bug of it not triggering when an enemy is killed by a couple damage sources, it's better than immediately being kicked out of invisibility because it's not compatible with bless/temporary HP/literally any buff.

Yeah... the item always had issues from day 1, but it used to be manageable. Initially, it was the invis not re-applying properly despite "appearing" invisible, but you could circumvent that as thief rogue by using a bonus action to break the initial invis. Now, the sneak attack doesn't trigger the effects at all (I think honor mode only bug). There might be other issues, but these were the only issues I encountered whenever I played. Every patch, new problem with the item lol.

Last edited by afx1234; 12/07/24 12:16 AM.
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Yeah the Mantle is rough in Honour. Sometimes it won't trigger, other times it will trigger, but then immediately gets disrupted by some other condition, like from items. I just tried a S'wizard Durge and the Diadem of Arcane Synergy kept breaking it. Something that would usually grant a buff turns into a self-debuff by always dropping invisibility. It clips too, with many models. I wish we could hide it, or crop it into a shorter style cloak, or turn it into a belt lol. Sadly I don't think the Mantle will be enough to make the Rogues feel like they're getting a proper scale up though. Of the classes that were available from like day one of EA, Rogues feel like they got short shrift compared to some of the other classes. Like they're good at sniping, but that isn't always my first thought for a rogue.

I tried to make Imoen in BG3 and thought 12 levels in Arcane trickster might be an interesting compromise under the new scheme, just for flavor (as opposed to say a Wizard with a bow, or slight of hand skills and high perception, or just making her a Multi-class which is still probably more sensible) but Arcane trickster just felt kinda meh. It presents as the default option, unless you click around to switch to Thief or Assassin. I feel like Thief should be the default Sub-Class, that way the new player isn't punished too much if they just click through. Being a semi-spellcaster as the default Rogue seems mechanically more challenging too for a new player to get their head around, juggling spells on top of normal Rogue antics and trying to learn both at once. Must be because they wanted that for Astarion for some reason, even though I always change him to Thief or Assassin which seems to offer more bang for the buck.

I think not giving Rogues the ability to Set Traps as a class feature was a missed opportunity. Finding and Disarming traps is kinda boring compared to Setting the traps. I suppose in my head a Cloud of Daggers or a scroll of Firewall could be construed as a trap, and maybe that's why the enemies are so keen to walk into them? lol That's a bit of a stretch though and requiring more imagination than I'd wish. Something that gave off trappier vibes would be nice, rather than pretending that barrels and spells are the traps. It's a tease cause we see that broken trap and cage on the beach, and we have the disarm trap kits, but lack the set trap kits. Then later on we see the fish people tossing nets around and such too. Clerics get Glyph of warding with damage type options, you'd think we could get some Spike traps or Snares that worked like that? Or where they could be set while hidden, or using a bonus type action that doesn't break stealth? Something similar to the weapon attacks that Battlemasters get but just made rogue-ish? Barbarians seem to have all the fun throwing, but I always think of darts and throwing knives as a standard Rogue hallmark. A climbing or grappling hook action might make use of spell effects like misty step or the arrow or spot switching, but just use a different animation or sound. Second story business might involve ropes as an equipped item, similar to the torch. It could use an animation like the thorn whip but less thorn-y. Character lets out a bark like "aha!" and we see some rope swoops. I'd enjoy that!

For itemization Rogues should also have more options for the Cloaks and Hoods than other class archetypes - especially the Hoods.

Also those masks that the Cultists of Bhaal get to wear. Like where's my enchanted version of that? I like the Shredder hood of Menzoberranzan, but more along those lines generally. Like where the items are specifically keyed for rogue-ish types. You know, as opposed to the all-purpose stuff that can be used by Monks and Rangers or just Anybody. Light Armor requirement would be good for all that kit at least, since then you'd get some flex there for Rangers and Warlocks too, but without making it just an 'anybody' item. There are tons of items that lean into classes or sub classes, improving the Smites or 'does X when' raging or casting spells etc. Although most of the Rogue themed items seem to have the idea of allowing anyone to become the Rogue, rather than making a pure class Rogue feel particularly standout or extra kickass. Backstabbing with the throwing daggers and assorted darts would be fun, but the throwing mechanic leaves a bit to be desired right now. They have the arcs like clearly intended for javelins or axes. Something more along the lines of the specialty attacks that were given to high level rangers might be cool. The gameplay of the Rogue seems to be mostly about gaming in and out of initiative, but that favors a ranged attacker over the more backstabby type Rogues, so I feel like we miss out on that a bit.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 10/07/24 07:21 AM.
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Rogue is missing too many core features to be a stand alone class. I'm not sure if it was always this way, or if Larian backed out of more stealth gaming based on the early access complains (they've changed many things for the worse based on even vaguely related issues -- I wouldn't put it past them).

Fundamentally, melee rogue is suffering from a lack of extra attack to an extent where only one subclass can halfass it. It's difficult to rebalance as currently all roads lead to stealth archer. Greater invis + pass without trace. The rogue class fantasy sees its full potential only when heavily supported by ally spellcasters, which is weird, but where we're at.

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Originally Posted by Silver/
Rogue is missing too many core features to be a stand alone class. I'm not sure if it was always this way, or if Larian backed out of more stealth gaming based on the early access complains (they've changed many things for the worse based on even vaguely related issues -- I wouldn't put it past them).

Fundamentally, melee rogue is suffering from a lack of extra attack to an extent where only one subclass can halfass it. It's difficult to rebalance as currently all roads lead to stealth archer. Greater invis + pass without trace. The rogue class fantasy sees its full potential only when heavily supported by ally spellcasters, which is weird, but where we're at.

They're not missing any core features though. They are almost entirely RaW. With extra bonuses due to Larian's stealth being grossly OP compared to TT (As well as Fast Hands enabling an extra attack, though this often is simply used by multi-class Rogue, especially since Rogue doesn't get TWF)

Rogue doesn't get any extra attack, they instead use their Sneak Attack to make up for it. The only reason this isn't as equivalent in BG3 is because Larian buffed Haste for some reason so Extra Attack classes (Especially Fighter and Paladin/Warlock with their 2 extra attacks) get obscene amounts more damage from being Hasted due to getting multiple bonus attacks, while Rogues are stuck with their 1 Sneak Attack per round (Homebrew to have Sneak Attack being once per Standard Action would help alleviate this, allowing Rogues to scale with Haste)

As far as supporting Rogue... Cloak of Cunning Brume and Eversight Ring makes a melee Rogue completely self sufficient. As it means Cunning Action: Disengage can be used to create a fog cloud to provide blindness at will (Also, enable other magic item bonuses in regards to obscurity. Namely various Dark Justicar items)

Outside of that, Rogue subclasses are kind of borked.

Assassin was nerfed so it's much more limited in how it can utilize Ambush (It used to work when initiating combat with an attack, which combined with Assassin's Alacrity allowed an Assassin to stealth into combat and get 2 turns of guaranteed crits - One from their initial attack that started combat and then their first turn in combat) this is technically more accurate to RaW but doesn't compete with the rest of Larian's homebrew (I.e. Haste being so powerful and Rogue dips to get Fast Hands for extra attacks with classes that get TWF or unarmed Monks).

While Trickster is gimped by Mage Hand being horrendously limited in the game compared to TT.

Last edited by Taril; 10/07/24 09:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by Silver/
Rogue is missing too many core features to be a stand alone class. I'm not sure if it was always this way, or if Larian backed out of more stealth gaming based on the early access complains (they've changed many things for the worse based on even vaguely related issues -- I wouldn't put it past them).

Fundamentally, melee rogue is suffering from a lack of extra attack to an extent where only one subclass can halfass it. It's difficult to rebalance as currently all roads lead to stealth archer. Greater invis + pass without trace. The rogue class fantasy sees its full potential only when heavily supported by ally spellcasters, which is weird, but where we're at.


I personally found rogue with deathstalker mantle quite strong as a melee rogue starting from act 2. You go around killing anyone in your one-shot range and stay invis the whole fight. By the end game, you should have lowered crit range + pierce vulnerability on every attack with the benefit of not being reliant on any resource. The problem is that this build has never been without issue since the mantle has always been bugged from launch --- and still is... frown


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