Larian Banner: Baldur's Gate Patch 9
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Joined: Sep 2023
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
One of the places the game drops the ball the hardest on reactivity is in regards to the decision of allowing Astarion to turn Tav into a vampire spawn. We’re nearing Patch 7 and I’m pleading with Larian to improve just a few tiny things for immersions sake so the route doesn’t look like it was hastily thrown together last minute. Here’s the things that really stand out:

  • Happy buff still refers to Astarion in the tooltip.
  • Tav can still use mirrors just fine without any explanation (at least use a generic “It’s empty” or narrator comment…please).
  • Tav has no indication they feel any vampiric hunger (at least a stray narrator comment saying we feel that would be greatly appreciated…)
  • Fangs or bite marks. I get there might be an engine limitation, but this one still really stands out.
  • Many NPCs have no reaction, but Araj specifically should acknowledge Tav is a vampire now. Tolerable if the rest of the suggestions were covered.


It just feels a bit frustrating that so much effort is put into edge cases, but then no consideration here. Especially when some of these are really low hanging fruits. You have the flag in the dialogue already so I know is doable.

Joined: Feb 2024
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2024
Originally Posted by Yharmeru
One of the places the game drops the ball the hardest on reactivity is in regards to the decision of allowing Astarion to turn Tav into a vampire spawn. We’re nearing Patch 7 and I’m pleading with Larian to improve just a few tiny things for immersions sake so the route doesn’t look like it was hastily thrown together last minute. Here’s the things that really stand out:

  • Happy buff still refers to Astarion in the tooltip.
  • Tav can still use mirrors just fine without any explanation (at least use a generic “It’s empty” or narrator comment…please).
  • Tav has no indication they feel any vampiric hunger (at least a stray narrator comment saying we feel that would be greatly appreciated…)
  • Fangs or bite marks. I get there might be an engine limitation, but this one still really stands out.
  • Many NPCs have no reaction, but Araj specifically should acknowledge Tav is a vampire now. Tolerable if the rest of the suggestions were covered.

It is such a big turning point for the player character if you go that way in the story, but like you say it has almost no reactions or implications from any of the close companions (except Astarion of course and Karlach for some strange reason), nothing from the narrator after the turning, not even a change in the appearance of my character even though Tav has become undead.

I agree with these, and my addition would be to have Tav wanting blood, wanting violence, reacting to smell of blood.

And the tooltip really needs to be changed, it was the first implication for me that the story had been rushed or forgotten about.

One thing I found really good is that they did think about the undead miazma when you do the quest for Oscar/the mummy guy. Astarion and Tav is standing straight, not bothered by the undead miazma in the tomb while the other companions is wheezing. It was the ONLY time I got reminded Tav is undead now. And I really liked that.

Joined: Nov 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
Overall, there is very little information about vampirism in the game. About “dark desires” and how they affect spawns.
Not much about the “first living vampire” concept either.

This drop of blood of the Ascended Astarion thing, I assume Tav is subject to all the perks of the ritual.
That is:
reflections,
sunlight,
lack of hunger,
the pleasures of mortals.

Considering Tav doesn't burn in the sun after the tadpole disappears.
That's how I interpret it at this point.

Though it should still be stipulated. Especially the taste of blood, since Tav gets vampirism after all.
I thought Gale, who we could talk to about the changes and lack thereof, would be interested.
I'm guessing this is an “Upper City Content” problem that extends to many aspects.

But honestly, I don't think Larian will expand and flesh out the story much.
Especially the more change the more inconsistencies, flaws, and plot holes happen in the game, unfortunately

Joined: Feb 2024
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Feb 2024
In my opinion everything is explained by a couple of phrases that Astarion says: "You will be stronger, swifter, sharper, but you won't be different". It fits perfectly with the explanation of why PC has not changed.
There is also a phrase that explains why the PC does not feel hunger, why it is not afraid of the sun, etc. Well, firstly, it is a tadpole. And secondly, Astarion is an ascended vampire, and he creates an unusual spawn: "You have supped of my blood. It will be no trouble to extend a fragment of my protection to you". That's all.
And the reaction from the NPCs and party members is not enough. I would like to hear them all, what they think. And correct the description of the ability, and then it will be beautiful in general.

Joined: Feb 2024
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2024
The eyesore of a tooltip on the Bite ability that refer to Tav as Astarion needs to be changed, it's unrelated to any story or roleplay and probably an easy fix for Larian. It would help immersion.

In regards to the no-change Tav, I still feel it's a little bit uninspired to have Tav stay exactly the same after being bit and turned by the new ascended vampire lord. Personally I would have liked to see some kind of consequence. Like when not being able to turn away from killing after accepting Bhaal. I do however think it is Larians intention to leave it up to player imagination. Since Astarion also says we will have to wait and see what parts of vampireism will come forth in Tav.

Also the bite marks. This is something I was missing instantly in my noob playthrough. I even studied my character in the Magic Mirror to see if Tav had any fang marks. In the Night of the turning, if you choose the hurt option and have the right hairstyle, you can clearly see the painfully deep marks on Tavs neck after Astarion bites them.
I would be very happy to see Larian add this, like many of us I think.. If not, I hope a modder will pick it up. Maybe add it as a scar option at the very least so we can put it on ourselves.

Joined: Dec 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2023
I explain the “Astarion is happy” buff on Tav as meaning that Astarion cares so much about his consort that he's happy that she ate well today. And since he had a good meal himself, it follows that he is now doubly happy. smile Well, or like the fact that Tav feels so good about Astarion being happy being an Ascended Vampire that it makes her feel invigorated and increases her effectiveness through staying positive. This is actually a flaw, of course, and could easily be fixed by simply changing the text description of the buff. At least just to the “Happiness” variant, if there's a problem with including the player's name in the description of that buff.

The lack of reaction from Araj does look unrealistic. It feels like the developers were too lazy to do an extra scene for the sake of it. Logically, Oblodra should offer Tav to bite her in exchange for the potion. And then there should be Astarion's reaction to that, additional lines, and if they agree, also a cutscene where Tav vomits and Astarion yells at them for not listening to him, or sympathizes, or prevents them from producing the bite - either way it would be a whole scene. If Oblodra had mentioned with one line that Tav was now a vampire and nothing else, that would have been weird too, considering how she wanted to be bitten by a vampire. Oh, and you can bite Oblodra in combat all you want - no special effect, you get the usual aforementioned “happy buff”. For the sake of realism, at least here it could be possible to put Tav in a state of nausea or poisoning. Also, Raphael's reaction to Tav turning into a vampire could be interesting. He's clearly capable of determining that they're a vampire, he knows Astarion's history, and he'd certainly have some mocking words to say about it, considering how angry he was at us after kidnapping the Orphic Hammer. The lack of response from the companions (other than Karlach) is also depressing.

In addition to invulnerability to undead miasma, Astarion and Tav also have invulnerability to infection on the plague ship (Lustrous Lass, the ship can be accessed via the Counting House or the Water Queen's House, and a sign on the latter's side indicates that it's under quarantine for said plague). The rest of the companions may be infected.


One life, one love - until the world falls down.
Joined: Sep 2023
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
Originally Posted by illeaillas-san
In my opinion everything is explained by a couple of phrases that Astarion says: "You will be stronger, swifter, sharper, but you won't be different". It fits perfectly with the explanation of why PC has not changed.
There is also a phrase that explains why the PC does not feel hunger, why it is not afraid of the sun, etc. Well, firstly, it is a tadpole. And secondly, Astarion is an ascended vampire, and he creates an unusual spawn: "You have supped of my blood. It will be no trouble to extend a fragment of my protection to you". That's all.
And the reaction from the NPCs and party members is not enough. I would like to hear them all, what they think. And correct the description of the ability, and then it will be beautiful in general.

You have to go down a specific dialogue path to even get these lines, and more importantly, why is Astarion the one telling our character what they should expect?

Everywhere else, the narrator is the one who generally informs us on how our character is supposed to feel. Astarion tells us he’ll miss Tav’s warm skin, but the narrator never mentions feeling cold the next day, nor is there a dialogue option to comment on it. Even if Tav is really intended to be immune by the effects of vampirism, the narrator should at least offer a cheeky comment the first time you interact with a mirror, like “It seems you still have your reflection!” or on the dock we should at least get a, “The sun feels hot but not particularly painful, it seems Astarion’s blessing is protecting you…for now.”

Or if Tav is supposed to be a vampire a simple “You rise painfully the next morning, cold and exhausted with your heart eerily still. As Astarion gently helps you to your feet and leads you back to camp, all you can focus on is the gnawing hunger ravaging you. Blood…rich…sweet…red…You’ll need to feed soon. Perhaps your companions might be able to offer some sustenance.”

Last edited by Yharmeru; 31/07/24 05:03 AM.
Joined: Nov 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
Originally Posted by Yharmeru
  • Tav can still use mirrors just fine without any explanation (at least use a generic “It’s empty” or narrator comment…please).
  • Tav has no indication they feel any vampiric hunger (at least a stray narrator comment saying we feel that would be greatly appreciated…)

I am against these two requests, I see it the same way as illeaillas-san and LiryFire: Astarion is a living Vampire and gives his blood to Tav, so also Tav doesn't feel the ache of hunger and he has the same living Vampire's advantages as Astarion - like seeing his own reflection, walking in the sun etc.

Originally Posted by Yharmeru
Originally Posted by illeaillas-san
In my opinion everything is explained by a couple of phrases that Astarion says: "You will be stronger, swifter, sharper, but you won't be different". It fits perfectly with the explanation of why PC has not changed.
There is also a phrase that explains why the PC does not feel hunger, why it is not afraid of the sun, etc.

You have to go down a specific dialogue path to even get these lines, and more importantly, why is Astarion the one telling our character what they should expect?

I agree with illeaillas-san and your statement isn't true, everyone who clicks on Astarion the next day will hear this line. He always says this sentence, no matter what answer you give him. I think, the majority of people won't miss it. These are the phrases everyone gets: "Things will be a touch different for you than they were for me when I was a spawn. I’m imbibed with unfathomable new talents. I am fairly certain I can extend Mephistopehles blessings unto you." and "You need not fear anything. You will be stronger, swifter, sharper, but you won't be different. You were already perfect before. It's hard to improve."

Maybe you could say that it's still a bit ambiguous, some people role-play like this and others like that (for example if you don't talk with Astarion the next day or roleplay, that Astarion would lie to you, etc.). I would advise Larian not to add a narrator's comment later (one year after release), because it would either make one or the other unhappy. There would also have to be further consequences. If the narrator were to say: Tav feels a painful hunger, but Astarion tells him that Mephistopheles has given him blessings and that not much has changed, that would be very inconsistent. Then Astarion's statement would have to be changed or they would have to add another scene where you could ask Astarion about it, etc. pp....


Originally Posted by Yharmeru
Or if Tav is supposed to be a vampire a simple “You rise painfully the next morning, cold and exhausted with your heart eerily still. As Astarion gently helps you to your feet and leads you back to camp, all you can focus on is the gnawing hunger ravaging you. Blood…rich…sweet…red…You’ll need to feed soon. Perhaps your companions might be able to offer some sustenance.”

For me this would be inconsistent to the dialogue with Astarion right after, as I wrote above (if Larian wants Tav to feel hunger, than this Dialogue needs to be changed as well and we need to get the option to talk about it with Astarion, when he is telling us, "but you won't be different". I could imagine Larian didn't give a narrator comment for the sake of ambiguity, and did this on purpose, so the players have more possibilities to roleplay the way they want.

Originally Posted by Yharmeru
  • Many NPCs have no reaction, but Araj specifically should acknowledge Tav is a vampire now.
It would have been desirable that there were some more reactions by others to Tav being a vampire or Astarion's spawn. But I don't think Larian will change anything because they already said there won't be any new content. (In general I think a lot of things could have been more fleshed out in act 3)


"I would, thank God, watch the universe perish without shedding a tear."
Joined: May 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: May 2024
I personally wouldn't want them to add any lines about Tav/Durge having vampiric hunger.
Though I don't think this has been confirmed, there are hints that Astarion performs the vampire bride ritual on your character rather than turning you into a regular spawn. For those who prefer it that way, or prefer to roleplay it like that, I am glad that it's kept ambiguous.
There has never been a vampire like Astarion, the Ascendant. But they don't elaborate that much about what he becomes. Who's to say what his spawn (or vampire bride) would be like? Since he is a 'living' vampire who can walk in the sun, see his reflection, and no longer feels the hunger, it is fair to assume his blood would give you those benefits as well. My character can still enjoy food and drink and everything else like she did before.
Although, getting fangs would have been nice (to complement our new Bite ability)! Along with appropriate reactions from your other party members. Karlach is the only one who I've seen react to it.

Joined: Jul 2009
I
old hand
Offline
old hand
I
Joined: Jul 2009
Astarion and Tav being vampires is by now just fanfiction anyway as Larian completely ignored what it means to be a vampire and the condition has 0 effects.

Joined: Feb 2024
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2024
Originally Posted by Yharmeru
Everywhere else, the narrator is the one who generally informs us on how our character is supposed to feel. Astarion tells us he’ll miss Tav’s warm skin, but the narrator never mentions feeling cold the next day, nor is there a dialogue option to comment on it. Even if Tav is really intended to be immune by the effects of vampirism, the narrator should at least offer a cheeky comment the first time you interact with a mirror, like “It seems you still have your reflection!” or on the dock we should at least get a, “The sun feels hot but not particularly painful, it seems Astarion’s blessing is protecting you…for now.”

I like these suggestions. I think what OP and myself are missing are some rpg choice validation. I want to be reminded of the choice made. Consequence, but not punishment (important distinction) for my actions in the game.

Adding the bite scar on Tavs neck would be a consequence that do not impact story. Astarion did bite Tav, hard and long, a scar is surely in order.


Originally Posted by Zayir
Originally Posted by Yharmeru
Or if Tav is supposed to be a vampire a simple “You rise painfully the next morning, cold and exhausted with your heart eerily still. As Astarion gently helps you to your feet and leads you back to camp, all you can focus on is the gnawing hunger ravaging you. Blood…rich…sweet…red…You’ll need to feed soon. Perhaps your companions might be able to offer some sustenance.”

For me this would be inconsistent to the dialogue with Astarion right after, as I wrote above (if Larian wants Tav to feel hunger, than this Dialogue needs to be changed as well and we need to get the option to talk about it with Astarion, when he is telling us, "but you won't be different". I could imagine Larian didn't give a narrator comment for the sake of ambiguity, and did this on purpose, so the players have more possibilities to roleplay the way they want.

Maybe for the hunger part it would be inconsistent, but Tavs heart has stopped beating we can not deny that. I can only imagine it would feel very wierd. Having the narrator comment on this would be interesting, imo.

Maybe the narrator would say something like: "You awake, clammy and cold. It feels like you can not draw air. As you sit in your bed you wonder if the night before was real or a dream. You can taste the air around you, hear the slow breath of your companions, their beating hearts. So unlike your own you realize, now silent as a stone."


Originally Posted by Ixal
Astarion and Tav being vampires is by now just fanfiction anyway as Larian completely ignored what it means to be a vampire and the condition has 0 effects.

It is part of the problem yeah. They also made a new vampire type that has 0 rules. But leaving it open is perhaps not such a bad idea, since people already have their own roleplay in the game.

I was surprised to see Astarion (and Tav after the bite) is not referred to as undead on the character sheet, though they are. It would have made an interesting healing dilemma since some spells do not heal undead.

Last edited by KiraMira; 31/07/24 11:33 AM. Reason: added new response
Joined: Nov 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
Larian hasn't really paid much attention to vampirism since the beginning.
Astarion in EA says this phrase "sheep are easily spooked". It may seem figurative, but it's not quite so. Astarion once says "food animals don't have to kill you, chickens, oxen and people". Lord Astarion doesn't hide this "angle" of vampirism and uses cattle for people from the city.
But we don't have this conversation about what orders of vampirism means, no about dark desires and whether they affect the spawn in the context of cruelty and perception of the world.

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
The lack of what you've listened was intentional, given Astarion addresses it in dialogue directly.
"Things will be much different for you than when I was a spawn. You will be stronger, sharper, swifter, but you won't be different. You were already perfect before. It's hard to improve."

This dialogue is given to all characters who speak to him post bite night. Tav must ask him what happened as they don't remember. A stark contrast to his memory of turning under Cazador.

He also discusses extending his blessings to a turned Tav. And Tav is standing in the sun without burning on the docks at the end. Given we don't know what kind of spawn an Ascendant can make, it seems Larian is being creative with how vampirism will affect Tav.

I think that's really fun and cool and original. I would like it to stay that way. I hope Larian doesn't change anything for vampire reactivity with Tav. Keep it creative! It's clearly meant to be different. Larian did a good job with it!

Joined: Nov 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
Tav was definitely given blood. It would make no sense for Astarion to elaborate on that detail if he didn't. Tav is under no obligation to demand true vampirism in dialogue with him.
And Tav doesn't burn in the sun which is an effect of the blood. How permanent or temporary was not specified. Astarion is a tricky character in this regard, he's a rogue and a charlatan. He doesn't want to be alone. He chooses an immoral way to get it.

Overall I thought Tav might be a true vampire since Astarion tells Tav about the rule of blood.

Astarion: In theory, the next step is to drink their blood. Once you've done that, you're free and a true vampire.
Player: So they bite you, you bite them?
Astarion: Yes and no. The problem is once you're a vampire spawn, they completely control you. They have to allow you to bite them.

So it seems that the Vampire Lord himself has to do a willful act, and this bite by spwan will be "special".
But no.

Player: You'd have to drink Cazador's blood to be free?
Astarion: Free and a true vampire, capable of creating my own coven? Yes.

Astarion says he'll be a True Vampire. Clearly Cazador wouldn't make the willful permission to "special bite". So the blood just works the way it is.

Astarion: Although I'd settle for just killing the bastard. I wouldn't be a 'true' vampire, but I'd be free of him.

Why Spawn Astarion doesn't drink Cazador's blood to become more powerful than the spawn, the chances of curing vampirism are very low anyway.
And why the blood rule doesn't do true vampirism when Astarion is literally splattered with it is a mystery.
He doesn't even recall this possibility.

So in my opinion it's not just Tav's vampirism that is overlooked.

Tav's can be explained by the effects of a new kind of “living” vampirism.

Other details of vampirism and Tav.

Spawn Tav: Will you still drink my blood?
Astarion: Of course I will, and you'll drink mine. I can't wait to taste your lips after you've tasted me.

To talk more about this we can't.

Speaking of transformation:

Astarion: I remember how it hurt when I turned to a vampire. My body writhed and warped while I was utterly helpless, the grip of death owned my heart as it beat its last.

Tav:
Player: What exactly happened?
Astarion: You were drained dry, and at the height of your delirium, I granted you one drop of my own blood.

That's why the bride theory is very superior, which could be adapted.
There's an opportunity to nicely close plot holes and explain the homebrew of what's going on with Tav.

Firstly there's a reference to Kin Nectar with a well written lore. When vampires drink each other.

Second.
Astarion describes his turning as painful. Tav does not remember(?) their turning.
Astarion mentions delirium. I take it Tav's total oblivion.
The transformation of the bride is described as complete euphoria. Which however can lead to madness and death if the Vampire Lord is mistaken.

Third

However, the amount of blood is different, not a drop, there must be a wound.
Yet in the context that the process of creating a bride on carries damage to the vampire, "even a small amount of blood" weakens him. The amount of blood required is not specified.

In BG3, as you can see, the "blood rule" is mentioned but in no way works further.
In that book, there is no such "blood rule" for the spawn, there they are fledglings, but they are at once vampires who get used to the world of vampires and are emotionally connected in a magical sense too. "Inborn" propensity to bow to the will of their creator. However, this passes with time.
It's kind of a bond.
The bond with the bride is more intense, the two literally feel each other. The bride doesn't have the " inborn" thing of regular fledglings.

Similar thing:
To create a fledgling you don't need blood
To create a bride you need blood

According to BG3 rules, there should have been no blood at all. Blood works for true vampirism and sapwn-turn supposed to hurt.

Van Richten's Guide to Vampires - Relations between Vampires
Plus everything is explained in detail and interessting.

There's only one book on vampirism in Bg3: "pale, tired, red eyes - don't let in the house"

Last edited by LiryFire; 31/07/24 03:58 PM.
Joined: Feb 2024
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2024
Originally Posted by Celesti4
Though I don't think this has been confirmed, there are hints that Astarion performs the vampire bride ritual on your character rather than turning you into a regular spawn. For those who prefer it that way, or prefer to roleplay it like that, I am glad that it's kept ambiguous.

For me, because it is so ambiguous in game, figuring out my own roleplay have also been ambiguous. Tav is sometimes bride, sometimes spawn in my mind when I play.. even still today I feel that way. She was most definitive a spawn for me first playthrough, a willing and happy one I'll add. But after getting on this forum (thanks to the problems with the romance scenes) and meeting all of you DnD lore and vampire lore specialists, especially LiryFire and DarkAngelBecons, I'm leaning more bride. Not only from the lore presented by them, but also how it fits with the turning scene specifically.

Even without knowing the lore, it feels like a ritual. Like a diabolical wedding, where the first bite mark the start.

I would have liked Larian to lean more into the bride theory and having the consequence/downside being a new obsession with blood. But that is of course biased to how I roleplay the romance.

Originally Posted by LiryFire
There's only one book on vampirism in Bg3: "pale, tired, red eyes - don't let in the house"

I remember reading that one..

Last edited by KiraMira; 01/08/24 10:59 AM.
Joined: Sep 2023
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
Originally Posted by Zayir
I am against these two requests, I see it the same way as illeaillas-san and LiryFire: Astarion is a living Vampire and gives his blood to Tav, so also Tav doesn't feel the ache of hunger and he has the same living Vampire's advantages as Astarion - like seeing his own reflection, walking in the sun etc.

Then this is something that should be clarified by the narrator like any other change that happens to our character. At the very least, the game implies Tav is cold to the touch. Surely that has to feel different than before. We also know they crave blood now as they feel happy after consuming it. Surely that's a craving worth remarking on at the very least?

Turning into a mindflayer isn't left to nearly so much ambiguity. The narrator spends significant amounts of time describing the character's new hunger, the struggle to keep their identity, etc.

At the very least, I would expect the narrator to say we don't feel different if we aren't supposed to feel different.

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
Originally Posted by Yharmeru
Originally Posted by Zayir
I am against these two requests, I see it the same way as illeaillas-san and LiryFire: Astarion is a living Vampire and gives his blood to Tav, so also Tav doesn't feel the ache of hunger and he has the same living Vampire's advantages as Astarion - like seeing his own reflection, walking in the sun etc.

Then this is something that should be clarified by the narrator like any other change that happens to our character. At the very least, the game implies Tav is cold to the touch. Surely that has to feel different than before. We also know they crave blood now as they feel happy after consuming it. Surely that's a craving worth remarking on at the very least?

Turning into a mindflayer isn't left to nearly so much ambiguity. The narrator spends significant amounts of time describing the character's new hunger, the struggle to keep their identity, etc.

At the very least, I would expect the narrator to say we don't feel different if we aren't supposed to feel different.

Why though?

It's a roleplay game. Not nailing down every detail to allow for different perspectives and roleplay is how they generally work. If you're wanting to imagine your Tav in a more typical spawn/master dynamic you can. If you want something more with Easter eggs to OG lore, you get that too. It provides a really great roleplay experience for a very wide audience.

It's not really equitable to mind flayer lore delivered by the narrator, as we all know exactly what a mind flayer is. We do not know exactly what an ascended vampire is. Nor what kind of spawn they will create. It's left for imagination. It's something brand new while mind flayers and the like are not.

I much prefer Larian letting the player decide what their relationship with Vampire Lord Astarion will look like and what exactly he's made them.

Last edited by Natasy; 01/08/24 12:34 AM.
Joined: Sep 2023
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
Originally Posted by Natasy
Why though?

It's a roleplay game. Not nailing down every detail to allow for different perspectives and roleplay is how they generally work.

Because it’s literally a narrative driven roleplaying game and not a sandbox of props to make my own story with! I’m literally trying to figure out how to roleplay how my character would feel about this situation, but I can’t because I don’t know what I’m working with! The game just never tells me how my character is physically feeling after this major transformation they just went through! Notice when we talk to Astarion after the first bite night we can say we feel woozy? Where is that option?

When I was playing my first Durge, the game made it clear my lack of killing was making my character feel twitchy and ill. As a result, I ROLEPLAYED a constant internal battle my character was facing with wanting to engage in cruelty because it felt so good, even though they knew it was wrong. This led me as a player to go along with way more evil shit than I wanted to, including killing a cat, because the character I was playing was was slowly being broken down by these physical symptoms.

There is no precedent for the Dark Urge in DnD, just like there is no precedent for a netherese tadpole infection. And yet, Larian takes the time to make it clear to us how these things physically manifest because they’re establishing a narrative setting. How we choose to react to those things is ROLEPLAY.

And sorry, when the game gives me a tooltip for a buff that literally refers to a different character, my reaction is gonna be, “Larian is clearly not finished with this route”, not “This is intentionally left vague so I can make up my own story”. Likewise, “You won’t be different” just sounds like the writers trying to come up with a handwavy excuse to cover why proper dev effort wasn’t put into Tav being a vampire.

Last edited by Yharmeru; 01/08/24 04:52 AM.
Joined: Nov 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
In my opinion, we don't discuss Astarion's vampirism much, and this by a love interest is quite a thing.
The Tav spawn has a line "Don't you dare speak like that, about my Lord Astarion" for Karlach, which incidentally may hint at this strong emotional bond that Minthara is talking about.

Speaking of Tav Spawn.
The point is, considering Astarion doesn't even stipulate the possibility of becoming a True Vampire in Act 3, when in Act 1 it was one of his goals.
But when it comes to Tav in Act 3 - all the rules and descriptions from DnD5 will be carried by a Tav spawn that has already swallowed a drop of blood from an ascended living vampire... Which literally breaks those rules on many levels.
Tav Spawn DnD 5 will look very inconsistent and intrusive because of this.

Also Astarion literally craved eternal life (eternal beauty I take it), we hardly discuss that either. Although he does say the phrase "I am a vampire - forever young". He's also clearly fascinated by the power a vampire Lord can wield in Act 1 and Act 2. It would be interesting to explore further whether he would prefer mortality or immortality. Get Astarion's recommendation on this, especially if Tav has a romance with him.
As it says in the artbook that has been sold since release including in physical form. I wonder those who bought it know that the character is, according to the community, rewritten and it's an EA concept.

I do worry about new inconsistencies and "other people's ideas" since Astarion and his whole quest is a team effort. That goes for Tav's vampirism, too.

If anything is ever added I just hope that Evil will not be a punishment, "isolation" - It just means isolation from players who like to play evil. We literally only have one character without a quest for the pure Evil path, and that's Minthara.
Path with its own pros and cons, fun to play, with its own point.

Joined: Jul 2009
I
old hand
Offline
old hand
I
Joined: Jul 2009
Yeah imo the reason vampire Tav (and astarion) do get intentionally forgotten are
1. The implementation of being a vampire is so inconsistent and lacking Larian does not want to draw attention to it.
2. Next to Shadowheart Astarion has become one of the poster childs for the shipping fandom and Larian does not want to anger them by making Astarion and Tav pairings less desireable by introducing more monsterous/vampire behaviour.

Joined: Feb 2024
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2024
Originally Posted by Ixal
Yeah imo the reason vampire Tav (and astarion) do get intentionally forgotten are
1. The implementation of being a vampire is so inconsistent and lacking Larian does not want to draw attention to it.
2. Next to Shadowheart Astarion has become one of the poster childs for the shipping fandom and Larian does not want to anger them by making Astarion and Tav pairings less desireable by introducing more monsterous/vampire behaviour.

I think you are on to something there.

Only thing is, I see it as Astarion creating a new monster in Tav, kind of like when Bhaal is making his spawn. Confirmed (in my mind) with Astarion giving Tav a drop of his blood. It would be the most interesting romance story, imo. Not the alternative: a trapped, unhappy, unchanged spawn with cow teeth.

Originally Posted by LiryFire
I do worry about new inconsistencies and "other people's ideas" since Astarion and his whole quest is a team effort. That goes for Tav's vampirism, too.

If anything is ever added I just hope that Evil will not be a punishment, "isolation" - It just means isolation from players who like to play evil. We literally only have one character without a quest for the pure Evil path, and that's Minthara.
Path with its own pros and cons, fun to play, with its own point.

I get this, and I agree. A game should be fun to play, also for us evil players.

Joined: May 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: May 2024
Originally Posted by LiryFire
(...)Astarion is a tricky character in this regard, he's a rogue and a charlatan. He doesn't want to be alone. He chooses an immoral way to get it.
I like this perspective.

Originally Posted by LiryFire
To create a fledgling you don't need blood
To create a bride you need blood

According to BG3 rules, there should have been no blood at all. Blood works for true vampirism and sapwn-turn supposed to hurt.
This is a good point to make. Astarion says your pleasure will be far greater than the pain. I'd assume that the pain was mainly the initial bite into your neck, and then the narrator says you soon fall into unconsciousness - and as Astarion later says, you go into a state of delirium at some point during this process, which could be a feeling of frenzy or ecstasy.

I feel that Larian did this in such a way where you could see it both ways. From the point of view of having been turned into a spawn, the single drop of Astarion's blood may only serve to grant you protection and give you the same benefits that the Ascendant has. But from the point of view of the vampire bride/groom ritual, this drop of blood was all he needed to perform the ritual on you (as perhaps the Ascendant's blood is so strong and effective enough that just a drop would suffice).

Originally Posted by KiraMira
Even without knowing the lore, it feels like a ritual. Like a diabolical wedding, where the first bite mark the start.
It also felt that way to me, it felt like it held a significance and was ceremonial for him, even the intense way he acts during that night. Astarion also hints at this later on, that you basically underwent some kind of marriage ritual. For example that he says you're his consort now and he talks about a dowry. It seems to me like you underwent some kind of dark wedding.

Originally Posted by KiraMira
I would have liked Larian to lean more into the bride theory and having the consequence/downside being a new obsession with blood. But that is of course biased to how I roleplay the romance.
I prefer the bride theory and there are enough hints given to indicate that this is what he may have done.

Originally Posted by KiraMira
Maybe the narrator would say something like: "You awake, clammy and cold. It feels like you can not draw air. As you sit in your bed you wonder if the night before was real or a dream. You can taste the air around you, hear the slow breath of your companions, their beating hearts. So unlike your own you realize, now silent as a stone."
It would have been interesting to get something like this when you wake up. The only narrative comment right now is "When you awake again, you will be his forevermore." But physically waking up from that must feel different, to say the least, as you just had your blood drained from your body and undergone a major transformation (and entered a state of delirium at one point).

But yeah, I'd rather not have them add certain 'new' things or ideas to the game at this point that could risk making some people unhappy or create more inconsistencies.

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
Originally Posted by LiryFire
In my opinion, we don't discuss Astarion's vampirism much, and this by a love interest is quite a thing.


If anything is ever added I just hope that Evil will not be a punishment, "isolation" - It just means isolation from players who like to play evil. We literally only have one character without a quest for the pure Evil path, and that's Minthara.
Path with its own pros and cons, fun to play, with its own point.

I agree with this +100

I'm really tired of the "Nooo evil means no happy. No evil person is EVER happy they secretly sob in a corner. If you have power you will never be happy. Evil gets punished!!" stories in fiction. It's boring and old.

Getting to be evil and power hungry with your LI with no judgement by the writers is SO MUCH more fun.


Originally Posted by Yharmeru
Because it’s literally a narrative driven roleplaying game and not a sandbox of props to make my own story with! I’m literally trying to figure out how to roleplay how my character would feel about this situation, but I can’t because I don’t know what I’m working with! The game just never tells me how my character is physically feeling after this major transformation they just went through! Notice when we talk to Astarion after the first bite night we can say we feel woozy? Where is that option?

When I was playing my first Durge, the game made it clear my lack of killing was making my character feel twitchy and ill. As a result, I ROLEPLAYED a constant internal battle my character was facing with wanting to engage in cruelty because it felt so good, even though they knew it was wrong. This led me as a player to go along with way more evil shit than I wanted to, including killing a cat, because the character I was playing was was slowly being broken down by these physical symptoms.

There is no precedent for the Dark Urge in DnD, just like there is no precedent for a netherese tadpole infection. And yet, Larian takes the time to make it clear to us how these things physically manifest because they’re establishing a narrative setting. How we choose to react to those things is ROLEPLAY.

And sorry, when the game gives me a tooltip for a buff that literally refers to a different character, my reaction is gonna be, “Larian is clearly not finished with this route”, not “This is intentionally left vague so I can make up my own story”. Likewise, “You won’t be different” just sounds like the writers trying to come up with a handwavy excuse to cover why proper dev effort wasn’t put into Tav being a vampire.

Durge is an entire story that spans all three acts. The entire point of the story is based on how the character feels/the internal struggle of being a Bhaal spawn.

Being a vampire spawn is a specific result of a romance path. Its not an entire story arc. I think it's boring to have to be told by Larian how to feel about it. Thats the players job. You *do* get spawn interaction and dialogue. You get the chance to "tell him how Tav feels" after bite night: confused with no memory. There are player interactions that remark on "something different" about vampire Tav. Tav shows their feelings of what they are through dialogue with Astarion and with others in the epilogue.

Acknowledgements do exist in the game. But maybe they're just not telling the specific story you're really wanting (Tav being exactly like Astarion was as a spawn). Given Tav was created by something other than a true vampire, I doubt you're going to see that.

I think the "Astarion is happy" buff fits perfectly with the master/spawn connection. Wouldn't it show how much of what Tav feels/experiences belongs to their creator? When Tav is sated, they feel their masters happiness. That's fun. Their mind and feelings belong to him.

Not trying to disparage you! It just seems like you're wanting a different story to be told than what Larian gave us. Nothing wrong with discussing that by any means!

Joined: Feb 2024
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2024
Originally Posted by Natasy
I think the "Astarion is happy" buff fits perfectly with the master/spawn connection. Wouldn't it show how much of what Tav feels/experiences belongs to their creator? When Tav is sated, they feel their masters happiness. That's fun. Their mind and feelings belong to him.

I know you are replying to someone else, but I just have to butt in because I really disagree with this. Not that you can't see it this way! But I do not buy this explanation personally. It feels like a rushed aspect of putting the romance together, a mistake and not a roleplay option, that breaks the immersion for players not willing to stretch their imagination that far.

I agree with Yharmeru that we should have seen a physical description of the vampire change. Having our character stay the same (not even new fangs!), seemingly feeling like their good old self, feels unfinished. Creative roleplay is best between confined lines and rules, not whatever you want. Like a parent saying to their child just go play whatever over there, instead of sitting down and playing with them. I get the reluctance to add something considering the last disaster we had with the romance, and I really doubt they will add something more. If Larian decides to do so they will have to be careful with the mess of plotholes for vampire rules/lore that is in the game and keeping the players happy.

Joined: May 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: May 2024
The main thing for me physically would be the fangs. How are we going to use our Vampire Bite without them.

Joined: Nov 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
I agree with Kira Mira that Tav's "Astarion is happy" status is a bug.

But I understand Natasy's idea, if we take for example the vampire lore about Kin Nectar, if vampires drink each other's blood they feel each other. Including the pleasure of blood? Probably.

Astarion's connection\reaction to Tav when thay drinks is an interesting idea.

But I suppose it would be enough to give Astarion a regular reaction. (aside from the drow and halsin scene, not much time is given to it there, after that too, as there just might be dialogue about Tav's feelings about blood)
Words to Tav's first time feeding, to make the moment more vivid, but that's more likely to be done by modders.

Originally Posted by KiraMira
If Larian decides to do so they will have to be careful with the mess of plotholes for vampire rules/lore that is in the game and keeping the players happy.

100% Agreed

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
Originally Posted by KiraMira
Originally Posted by Natasy
I think the "Astarion is happy" buff fits perfectly with the master/spawn connection. Wouldn't it show how much of what Tav feels/experiences belongs to their creator? When Tav is sated, they feel their masters happiness. That's fun. Their mind and feelings belong to him.

I know you are replying to someone else, but I just have to butt in because I really disagree with this. Not that you can't see it this way! But I do not buy this explanation personally. It feels like a rushed aspect of putting the romance together, a mistake and not a roleplay option, that breaks the immersion for players not willing to stretch their imagination that far.

I agree with Yharmeru that we should have seen a physical description of the vampire change. Having our character stay the same (not even new fangs!), seemingly feeling like their good old self, feels unfinished. Creative roleplay is best between confined lines and rules, not whatever you want. Like a parent saying to their child just go play whatever over there, instead of sitting down and playing with them. I get the reluctance to add something considering the last disaster we had with the romance, and I really doubt they will add something more. If Larian decides to do so they will have to be careful with the mess of plotholes for vampire rules/lore that is in the game and keeping the players happy.

Sorry I was being cheeky with that! Lol I know it's NOT meant to be intentional. I was just being a little silly with how that specific bug could fit in with a more angst-like headcanon, where Tav is a traditional spawn. I don't personally play as Astarion fully owning Tav's mind/feelings either. My point was to tongue and cheek point out how they could still make their HC work!

I agree fangs would be nice!!

Last edited by Natasy; 01/08/24 04:44 PM.
Joined: Feb 2024
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2024
Originally Posted by Natasy
Sorry I was being cheeky with that! Lol I know it's NOT meant to be intentional. I was just being a little silly with how that specific bug could fit in with a more angst-like headcanon, where Tav is a traditional spawn. I don't personally play as Astarion fully owning Tav's mind/feelings either. My point was to tongue and cheek point out how they could still make their HC work!

I agree fangs would be nice!!

Hah! Too bad we can't hear cheek through the computer screen. shadowheartgiggle

Originally Posted by LiryFire
Astarion's connection\reaction to Tav when thay drinks is an interesting idea.

But I suppose it would be enough to give Astarion a regular reaction. (aside from the drow and halsin scene, not much time is given to it there, after that too, as there just might be dialogue about Tav's feelings about blood)
Words to Tav's first time feeding, to make the moment more vivid, but that's more likely to be done by modders.

Having some kind of remark om Tavs first feeding is a great idea. Kind of like when you
transform first time as Bhaal spawn!
I like that suggestion a lot.

Last edited by KiraMira; 01/08/24 05:00 PM. Reason: added response
Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
I need to start marking things as /silly when I'm just trying to be lighthearted LOL

Originally Posted by LiryFire
But I understand Natasy's idea, if we take for example the vampire lore about Kin Nectar, if vampires drink each other's blood they feel each other. Including the pleasure of blood? Probably.

Astarion's connection\reaction to Tav when thay drinks is an interesting idea.

But I do actually really like this and will incorporate it into my "mental bond" HC 🖤 it's a fun work around for the bug

Joined: Dec 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2023
Originally Posted by LiryFire
Larian hasn't really paid much attention to vampirism since the beginning.
Astarion in EA says this phrase "sheep are easily spooked". It may seem figurative, but it's not quite so. Astarion once says "food animals don't have to kill you, chickens, oxen and people". Lord Astarion doesn't hide this "angle" of vampirism and uses cattle for people from the city.
But we don't have this conversation about what orders of vampirism means, no about dark desires and whether they affect the spawn in the context of cruelty and perception of the world.

Interestingly, in The Necromancy of Thay, Astarion finds a description of the Ascension ritual, the book is ancient, so it's odd that it contains a description of a ritual that has never been performed by anyone (as Raphael says), directly by anyone, not Szass Tam himself, his disciples, or any other Thay vampire mages. Szass Tam has vampire generals, commanders of Cyric's Legion and Legion of Bone, there is no need to hide vampirism in Thay, it is considered a variant of immortality. Thay's vampiric aristocracy is part of the Zulkir of Necromancy along with other necromancers, lichs, etc. Accordingly, someone of the Thay would probably have performed this ritual earlier. In my opinion, this is somewhat illogical. By the way, there is a book in DnD - The Tome of Blasphemous Magic, also by Szas Tam, Lord of Thei. Perhaps it is the progenitor for the book "The Necromancy of Thay" that we see in the game, it's very similar.

Personally, I envision Astarion's vampirism this way: initially, the spawn has all the traits of a classic vampire spawn - dulled senses, hunger, etc. Tadpole "revives" Astarion, giving him the ability to walk in the sunlight, brings back his senses, he effectively becomes alive again, the only thing he has left from his previous state is vampiric hunger. Astarion can eat normal food, not just drink blood, he can taste and smell, he himself no longer has an undead smell like normal vampires. Except that he remains cold to the touch ("I will miss the warmth of your body," he says to Tav, implying that he used to enjoy Tav's warmth before). Nor is there any "monstrosity" in Astarion's behavior and character - he's alive, emotional, feeling and in no way resembles those ill-fated 5th edition vampires. Stephen Rooney also mentioned in one of his interviews that he didn't want to show a classic vampire because no one would be interested. This is absolutely true and perfect for the character. After Ascension, Astarion no longer feels vampire hunger, all his senses have sharpened, he has gained new abilities that will develop over time. His personality doesn't change in any way, an Ascended vampire is just like a human with super powers and the ability to drink blood. It's a bit unclear how much blood he needs to drink, how often, etc. It's clear that he feels pleasure from it, and the blood makes him stronger, but he doesn't experience the torment of hunger that drives other vampires to seek sacrifice at all costs, he can eat regular food. Does Astarion now drink blood at will? How long must it be after he has drunk someone else's blood before he needs more, how will he feel when doing so, if he no longer feels hunger - these questions, unfortunately, are not answered by the game. Well, in the game, Astarion habitually bites every time after resting, gets his happy buff, maybe once a day he needs blood to feel perfect, but that's a matter of headcanons only.

I fully support the fact that Tav is Astarion's bride, there is plenty of evidence for that in the game, while the ordinary spawn option, on the other hand, has obvious logical contradictions, given the way Tav's conversion ritual goes. Here's a great video where everything is explained very well with a factual approach to the issue (I know a lot of people have seen it, but in case someone hasn't yet and they're curious):


Originally Posted by Ixal
Yeah imo the reason vampire Tav (and astarion) do get intentionally forgotten are
1. The implementation of being a vampire is so inconsistent and lacking Larian does not want to draw attention to it.
2. Next to Shadowheart Astarion has become one of the poster childs for the shipping fandom and Larian does not want to anger them by making Astarion and Tav pairings less desireable by introducing more monsterous/vampire behaviour.

1. Agreed. It's very funny when Astarion in no way resembled a spawn from 5th edition, and then, suddenly, it's a living Ascended vampire (the ritual heightens feelings and sharpens them, it's said in the game, not destroys or dulls them) that has to become a regular 5th edition vampire lord with a "monster" in his brain. In that case, it would make a lot more sense for Astarion-Spawn, after the tadpole and all its effects are gone, to become this very 5th edition spawn, if that.

2. I hope so. I hope we've angered enough already, we can already play with pleasure, calmly, without nerves.

Originally Posted by Natasy
Originally Posted by LiryFire
In my opinion, we don't discuss Astarion's vampirism much, and this by a love interest is quite a thing.

If anything is ever added I just hope that Evil will not be a punishment, "isolation" - It just means isolation from players who like to play evil. We literally only have one character without a quest for the pure Evil path, and that's Minthara.
Path with its own pros and cons, fun to play, with its own point.

I agree with this +100

I'm really tired of the "Nooo evil means no happy. No evil person is EVER happy they secretly sob in a corner. If you have power you will never be happy. Evil gets punished!!" stories in fiction. It's boring and old.

Getting to be evil and power hungry with your LI with no judgement by the writers is SO MUCH more fun.

+1000. Considering how punishing it is to choose the "good" side in BG3 (for those who love Astarion), it would be extremely unfair to once again try to torture players who follow the only happy path, which in this game is the path of evil. I've honestly had enough of third-party attempts to make my Tav the heroine of a fanfic that I would never even want to read, except at gunpoint, let alone play it, forgetting about such a word as roleplay in an RPG game. But fortunately, they listened to us, the necessary fixes were promised in patch 7, which gives us hope that there will be no more ruined game. The modders fixed the romance, the modders will probably make some interesting additions to Astarion and Tav's vampire story in the future as well. At least that will be something to evaluate, and choose whether or not to install, how well it fits the story, etc.


One life, one love - until the world falls down.
Joined: Jul 2024
C
stranger
Offline
stranger
C
Joined: Jul 2024
it should be possible for your player character to become an acended vampire.. either taking Astations place, by killing him or something or, somehow accend with him

Joined: Nov 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Nov 2023
Originally Posted by Marielle
Personally, I envision Astarion's vampirism this way: initially, the spawn has all the traits of a classic vampire spawn - dulled senses, hunger, etc. Tadpole "revives" Astarion, giving him the ability to walk in the sunlight, brings back his senses, he effectively becomes alive again, the only thing he has left from his previous state is vampiric hunger. Astarion can eat normal food, not just drink blood, he can taste and smell, he himself no longer has an undead smell like normal vampires. Except that he remains cold to the touch ("I will miss the warmth of your body," he says to Tav, implying that he used to enjoy Tav's warmth before).

To me it seems like Tav will be the only one with a cold body, since they will be a spawn and not a lord like Astarion. His heart is beating and he's alive so it would make sense he'd be exactly like a regular person, but with superpowers. He'd then experience Tav's body in a completely different way. After the conversion, Tav doesn't seem to notice any difference though and he also tells them they won't really change all that much. He's also confident he can share his powers with Tav, so they might actually be able to benefit from all the living vampire perks.


As for the OP, I agree the happy buff should be described differently, the game should explain better what's going on with Tav and the reactivity to Tav's new condition is sorely missing. They could at least add fangs and bite marks to the magic mirror so we can customise our charas to look more vampiric.

Joined: Aug 2024
E
member
Offline
member
E
Joined: Aug 2024
I don't know how likely it is that anything will still be added, but I support the suggestion to fix the Happy buff description and give Tav bite scars/fangs! I also think red eyes would add to the immersion.

Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Support! I agree, most of these are low hanging fruit and it's disappointing how rushed the implementation of becoming AA's spawn is. At the very least, I think these would improve immersion without being a ton of extra work:

Originally Posted by Yharmeru
  • Happy buff still refers to Astarion in the tooltip.
  • Tav can still use mirrors just fine without any explanation (at least use a generic “It’s empty” or narrator comment…please).
  • Fangs or bite marks. I get there might be an engine limitation, but this one still really stands out.

+ Red eyes!

I'd love for everything OP suggested to be implemented, but these would at least be fixable without bringing voice actors back.

Joined: Dec 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2023
Originally Posted by Ametris
To me it seems like Tav will be the only one with a cold body, since they will be a spawn and not a lord like Astarion. His heart is beating and he's alive so it would make sense he'd be exactly like a regular person, but with superpowers. He'd then experience Tav's body in a completely different way. After the conversion, Tav doesn't seem to notice any difference though and he also tells them they won't really change all that much. He's also confident he can share his powers with Tav, so they might actually be able to benefit from all the living vampire perks.

That's a great point!

Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
Support! I agree, most of these are low hanging fruit and it's disappointing how rushed the implementation of becoming AA's spawn is. At the very least, I think these would improve immersion without being a ton of extra work:

Originally Posted by Yharmeru
  • Happy buff still refers to Astarion in the tooltip.
  • Tav can still use mirrors just fine without any explanation (at least use a generic “It’s empty” or narrator comment…please).
  • Fangs or bite marks. I get there might be an engine limitation, but this one still really stands out.

+ Red eyes!

I'd love for everything OP suggested to be implemented, but these would at least be fixable without bringing voice actors back.

Ascended Astarion is great at using mirrors, and has charming lines to that effect, so the option of Tav now not being able to use a mirror would be extremely silly. There's already a mod for bite marks. In general, bite marks and red eyes might be nice, but these cosmetic changes are easily created with mods, just like hairstyles, tattoos, and the like. Basically, players can change their appearance with mods however they want, so whether it will be done or not, in general, it is always possible to install a mod for bite marks if desired.


One life, one love - until the world falls down.
Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Old dnd player here and I was going to type a long post about AA bride not being a regular spawn and then I found this excellent article that hits the nail on the head:

https://www.gameskinny.com/culture/baldurs-gate-3-ascended-astarion-makes-tav-vorlog-not-vampire/

Last edited by avahZ Darkwood; 05/10/24 10:04 PM.
Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by avahZ Darkwood
Old dnd player here and I was going to type a long post about AA bride not being a regular spawn and then I found this excellent article that hits the nail on the head:

https://www.gameskinny.com/culture/baldurs-gate-3-ascended-astarion-makes-tav-vorlog-not-vampire/

It's an interesting theory. But I think if this is what the devs intended, they would have made that clear in the game. Both the dev notes and AA refer to Tav/Durge as a spawn. And we're currently on the 5th edition of D&D, not the 2nd edition.

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
Originally Posted by avahZ Darkwood
Old dnd player here and I was going to type a long post about AA bride not being a regular spawn and then I found this excellent article that hits the nail on the head:

https://www.gameskinny.com/culture/baldurs-gate-3-ascended-astarion-makes-tav-vorlog-not-vampire/

It's an interesting theory. But I think if this is what the devs intended, they would have made that clear in the game. Both the dev notes and AA refer to Tav/Durge as a spawn. And we're currently on the 5th edition of D&D, not the 2nd edition.

So, a couple of things, just for clarity. The fifth edition of the guide still references the second edition. So the lore is still relevant for current play. Generally in DnD the only time old lore becomes irrelevant is if it's stated as specifically removed. **I will say, the proper term for what the article and @darkwood are trying to describe is a vampire spouse. A vorlog only happens if the vampire lord dies during the spouse transformation. It's an extremely tragic creature (and if you love DnD I recommend you check it out!), and does an excellent job showing how vulnerable a lord makes itself when creating a spouse vs a regular spawn. Though, the article is correct that it's a perfect parallel to the Dark Kiss itself. A vorlog is also great at displaying the deep emotional connection between a spouse and sire.


Also, yes, a vampire spouse is still a spawn. It is still sired by a master. So, of course using the spawn tag in game is still relevant. All spouses are spawn, but not all spawn are spouses. A spouse is a specific kind of spawn. Given we are told in game how a regular spawn is created, and then told the PC's transformation does not parallel that creation, I feel comfortable agreeing that it is in game that players at least see for themselves Tav is not a regular spawn. (Edit to add its also in game that he calls the PC his spouse. Which is a relevant detail imo, and a dowry can also be discussed). How we all RP with that is up to the player!

Last edited by Natasy; 06/10/24 03:27 PM.
Joined: Dec 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2023
Originally Posted by Natasy
So, a couple of things, just for clarity. The fifth edition of the guide still references the second edition. So the lore is still relevant for current play. Generally in DnD the only time old lore becomes irrelevant is if it's stated as specifically removed. **I will say, the proper term for what the article and @darkwood are trying to describe is a vampire spouse. A vorlog only happens if the vampire lord dies during the spouse transformation. It's an extremely tragic creature (and if you love DnD I recommend you check it out!), and does an excellent job showing how vulnerable a lord makes itself when creating a spouse vs a regular spawn. Though, the article is correct that it's a perfect parallel to the Dark Kiss itself. A vorlog is also great at displaying the deep emotional connection between a spouse and sire.


Also, yes, a vampire spouse is still a spawn. It is still sired by a master. So, of course using the spawn tag in game is still relevant. All spouses are spawn, but not all spawn are spouses. A spouse is a specific kind of spawn. Given we are told in game how a regular spawn is created, and then told the PC's transformation does not parallel that creation, I feel comfortable agreeing that it is in game that players at least see for themselves Tav is not a regular spawn. (Edit to add its also in game that he calls the PC his spouse. Which is a relevant detail imo, and a dowry can also be discussed). How we all RP with that is up to the player!

Yeah, thanks for the great point. A spouse is a specific kind of spawn. While the “spawn” tag in the developer notes may be used for simplicity, it's a technical part of the game, not an artistic part. I still believe that Tav is a vampire and not a spawn, but there's a complication here with the two setings. In the Ravenloft setting, which details a bride ritual that is entirely consistent with what we see in the game, there is no such thing as a “spawn”. A vampire master creates a vampire-fledgling, who are considered slaves to the one who created them and have an innate tendency to obey the will of their creator, but after a few years this tendency wears off, and the vampires keep their slaves under control the same way mortals do, through intimidation and punishment, and usually kill them before they learn their own strengths. In Faerûn, the vampire's control over the spawn is real, so there is a separation between full vampires and spawns. In Ravenloft, a vampire creates either just a vampire-fledgling or a bride/groom. How this ritual would work on Faerûn is an open question, plus we don't directly see the Tav conversion process itself in the game. Whether Astarion gave them one drop of blood or more, he said one, but Tav doesn't remember how their conversion took place. One thing is clear, Tav was not buried in the ground, Tav did not experience the torment that spawns must experience when they are converted. Astarion bites three times, as is proper in the creation of a bride - we can observe this.

And one can perceive this story in different ways, the game leaves options for interpretations. Maybe like this story:

“She saw me not as a protector, but as a rival, as a slave master. And she dedicated herself to freeing herself from my yoke". It chuckled mirthlessly. "It is so obvious now, but for all those decades I fooled myself. I suppose - " and its voice almost broke, for all the creature's superhuman control. "I suppose I had the love in my eyes, so that I was unable to see what was right in front of me". Quote from confessions of a vampire from the personal journal of Dr. Van Richten https://voltor.narod.ru/vr/vr01_11.htm (another article explaining the Dark Kiss ritual and the creation of a vampire bride).

Or there could be this:

“A vampire and bride who truly love and trust each other make a team that is exceptionally difficult to defeat!” (quote from the same source)

In this video, the author explains very well, logically and in detail why Astarion's bride is not a normal spawn, pointing out all the iconic moments in the game that speak to this:



One life, one love - until the world falls down.
Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Natasy
The fifth edition of the guide still references the second edition. So the lore is still relevant for current play. Generally in DnD the only time old lore becomes irrelevant is if it's stated as specifically removed.

Actually, the official stance is that every edition of D&D is its own canon.

Originally Posted by D&D Blog Post
The current edition of the D&D roleplaying game has its own canon, as does every other expression of D&D...Every edition of the roleplaying game has its own canon as well. In other words, something that might have been treated as canonical in one edition is not necessarily canonical in another...we don’t want DMs or players to feel like they must read a novel, play a video game, or buy a third-edition sourcebook to enjoy our game and get the most out of our current line of products...Fifth edition’s canon begins with its core rulebooks. It includes every bit of lore that appears in the most up-to-date printings of the fifth edition Player’s Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master’s Guide.

Of course, people are still free to use old lore and make their own theories. But since someone brought up official lore outside the game, I have to clarify with what the D&D staff have said on canon. I don't remember seeing anything about vampire spouses in 5e. While I find the vampire spouse theory interesting, I think if this was Larian's intent then they would have made it explicitly clear in the game. We shouldn't have to find outdated lore books to support it. So personally I find the 2e lore off topic from what changes Tav/Durge should see in BG3 after becoming a spawn.

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
Given the 5e guide still references the 2e guide, I think it's safe to say 5e still sees it as relevant and not out of date.

Here:
https://ibb.co/F0hh28Y

Joined: Dec 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2023
Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
While I find the vampire spouse theory interesting, I think if this was Larian's intent then they would have made it explicitly clear in the game. We shouldn't have to find outdated lore books to support it.

I think it's pretty clear you can see the difference between how Astarion describes the agonizing process of transforming into a spawn, and Tav not experiencing anything like that. Also, any “easter egg” is based on some sort of out-of-game knowledge, it's like a hint to the player who can read it. You can, of course, and not read, nothing terrible from this will not happen, the possibilities for different interpretations - it is more interesting and better for the story than a banal and leaving no options rigid explanation, say, it is so and so. This approach simplifies the story, and it seems to me that the developers do not need to chew everything up for the player in the game's plot.


One life, one love - until the world falls down.
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
Of course, people are still free to use old lore and make their own theories. But since someone brought up official lore outside the game, I have to clarify with what the D&D staff have said on canon. I don't remember seeing anything about vampire spouses in 5e. While I find the vampire spouse theory interesting, I think if this was Larian's intent then they would have made it explicitly clear in the game. We shouldn't have to find outdated lore books to support it. So personally I find the 2e lore off topic from what changes Tav/Durge should see in BG3 after becoming a spawn.
It's possible that Larian was inspired by that DnD lore, it's also possible that the similarities are purely coincidental. Either way, I personally don't care what Larian intended. I like the theory, I find it makes more sense based on how your character is turned, amongst other reasons.
I think a lot of things have been left vague to allow people to interpret things their own way to fit their own style of roleplay.

Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Natasy
Given the 5e guide still references the 2e guide, I think it's safe to say 5e still sees it as relevant and not out of date.

Here:
https://ibb.co/F0hh28Y

It doesn't say anything about vampire spouses though? Everything they thought you needed to know for 5e is already written there. Which matches with what the official D&D blog post said about each edition being its own canon, and not wanting people to have to find old lore to understand current lore. Personally, I think the game would tell us what we need to know about the lore, within the game. That's just best writing practice.

Originally Posted by Marielle
I think it's pretty clear you can see the difference between how Astarion describes the agonizing process of transforming into a spawn, and Tav not experiencing anything like that.
Doesn't the game just fade to black and not tell you what Tav experiences? As far as I remember there's no description of what happens after Tav dies.

Originally Posted by Kurophina
Either way, I personally don't care what Larian intended. I like the theory, I find it makes more sense based on how your character is turned, amongst other reasons.
That's fair. I also like the theory, but I see it as a fun headcanon instead of canon.

Anyway, since we all seem to agree Tav/Durge becomes a vampire spawn, whether special or not, surely that means we can agree the game can do more to show the change?

Last edited by 🌸Yume🌸; 18/10/24 08:20 PM.
Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
You don't see where it's referencing the 2e guide in that photo? I can underline it if that will help smile you said 2e was out of date and irrelevant. Using it as a reference in the current edition is evidence that it's still relevant.

There is a direct description, though? Astarion exains how he was turned. And then later explains how Tav was turned. You see the thrice bites. Tav is not buried. Tav wakes up the next day, not in three days like with the poison bite. Tav is standing in the sun post brain. This are all tangible and observable in the game.

I don't think you have to roleplay that way, by any means. But I do think it's an Easter egg. And I think it's valid that people see it as an element of the game. Given how different Tavs turning is.

Joined: Dec 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2023
Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
Doesn't the game just fade to black and not tell you what Tav experiences? As far as I remember there's no description of what happens after Tav dies.

During the narrator's cue, the screen is not faded, at which point we see Astarion drinking blood from Tav's neck. Narrator: “As he drinks more and more, you feel yourself fading from consciousness. When you wake again, you will be his forever more.” It darkens after the scene ends, and we do not see the process of conversion. There is nothing bad in the narrator's line, nothing about the suffering associated with the process of being turned into a spawn. “You will be his forever more” - the same applies to the vampire's bride, the vampire and his bride are linked forever, the bride will also never be able to part with him. Astarion says before this, “It will only hurt a bit, the pleasure will be far greater than the pain”, which also coincides with the Dark Kiss ritual. “A hurt a bit” seems to refer to the vampire bite itself, when a vampire sinks his fangs in, it may well cause a bit of hurt. And “pleasure” - is the very ritual of conversion, especially when the bride drinks the blood of her creator, the bride cannot control herself at this moment, it is a difficult and dangerous moment of the ritual, the vampire-creator must be able to tear his bride away from himself in time. Yes, this is not shown in the game. But let's compare this line of the narrator with the fact that Astarion in the graveyard scene talks about the process of turning into a vampire spawn. About the agonizing transformation, the burying in the ground, and how the spawn has to dig themselves out afterward. The difference between what Astarion himself experienced and how he converts Tav is vast.


One life, one love - until the world falls down.
Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
Oh, that's right. I forgot Tav's turning was also described as pleasurable, as is the case for spouse lore. Astarion describes feeling his transformation as painful.

Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
Quote
Astarion: I remember how it hurt when I turned to a vampire. My body writhed and warped while I was utterly helpless, the grip of death owned my heart as it beat its last.

This is what he says during the conversation about the astral tadpole in act 2. Being turned was a very painful process for him.

Quote
Astarion: I had to punch a hole in the coffin and claw my way through six feet of dirt.
Astarion: Then when I finally broke the surface, retching up dirt and congealed blood, Cazador was waiting.
This is said during the act 3 romance scene on the Spawn path. He was buried which is how vampires are created under dnd lore.

Quote
Astarion: It will only hurt a bit, the pleasure will be far greater than the pain.
This is during the act 3 romance scene on the Ascended path and it's followed by another two bites then a fade to black.

Quote
Player: Will you still drink my blood?
Astarion: Of course I will, and you'll drink mine. I can't wait to taste your lips after you've tasted me.
He talks about you also drinking from him but if you were a regular spawn doing so would turn you into a true vampire.


Regardless of what Larians intentions were, I think the bride dnd lore makes a lot more sense than a standard spawn based on how your character is turned etc.

Joined: Dec 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2023
Originally Posted by Kurophina
Quote
Player: Will you still drink my blood?
Astarion: Of course I will, and you'll drink mine. I can't wait to taste your lips after you've tasted me.
He talks about you also drinking from him but if you were a regular spawn doing so would turn you into a true vampire.

Yes, that's an important point too! Astarion himself offers Tav to drink his blood, Astarion wants it (the player doesn't even ask him to do so, asking a question solely about their blood). “I can't wait to taste your lips after you've tasted me”. - Drinking each other's blood is seen by Astarion as an act of love, something that is impossible between a vampire master and a common spawn.


One life, one love - until the world falls down.
Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Natasy
You don't see where it's referencing the 2e guide in that photo? I can underline it if that will help smile you said 2e was out of date and irrelevant. Using it as a reference in the current edition is evidence that it's still relevant.

Again, I only said that because people started using lore outside of the game as evidence. I personally think Larian would have mentioned something so important in the actual game if it was true. It wouldn't be an easter egg, it is so important it would be made clear to the player. Anyway, I don't think a vague mention means that book is still relevant. The D&D staff explicitly said each edition is its own separate canon, and they don't want people to dig through old books to understand the lore. Which is exactly what people would have to do to find this lore. They also released the updated guide Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft in 2021. I found no references to the Dark Kiss, vampire spouses, vampire brides, or vampire grooms anywhere in that book. And that is the only book available now on the D&D store, not Van Richten's Guide to Vampires.

Even IF we accept the 2e guide as still relevant despite D&D clearly stating otherwise, how AA turns Tav/Durge does not match the description of the ritual in the book in multiple ways:

Quote
Only vampires of advanced age and capability can even assay this procedure. A bride or groom can be created only by a vampire of age category Ancient or greater, and not even all of those are capable of doing so.
AA became an actual vampire like a day ago. If you say his 200 years as a vampire spawn count, he still only falls into the Old category, not Ancient:

Old: 200-299 years
Very Old: 300-399 years
Ancient: 400-499 years

Quote
Just as the subject is about to slip into the terminal coma from which there is no awakening, the vampire opens a gash in its own flesh—often in its throat—and holds the subject’s mouth to the wound. As the burning draught that is the vampire’s blood gushes into the subject’s mouth, the primitive feeding instinct is triggered, and she sucks hungrily at the wound, enraptured. With the first taste of the blood, the subject is possessed of great and frenzied strength, and will use it to prevent the vampire from separating her from the fountain of wonder that is its bleeding wound. It is at this point that the creator-vampire’s strength is most sorely tested. He is weakened by his own blood loss.

This makes it clear that a LOT of blood is coming out of the sire in the Dark Kiss ritual. AA is very clear that he gives Tav/Durge just one drop of his blood. One drop will not be "gushing", a "fountain of wonder", and would not cause him blood loss.

Quote
Regardless of intervening terrain or obstacles, the two vampires can communicate instantly and silently as if they were speaking together. It is important to note that this communication is very much like silent speech...one member of the pair can sense incredibly strong emotion in the other’s mind.

There is no evidence of this in the game outside of the tadpoles.

Saying that AA performed the Dark Kiss ritual is picking some pieces out while ignoring the other pieces that contradict what actually happens in the game. Of course, people can enjoy whatever headcanons they like and roleplay however they like. I fully support that. But I don't agree with an inaccurate fan theory being pushed as canon and as the reason Larian should NOT finish polishing vampire spawn Tav/Durge. Especially if we all agree Tav/Durge is some type of vampire spawn.

Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Marielle
Originally Posted by Kurophina
Quote
Player: Will you still drink my blood?
Astarion: Of course I will, and you'll drink mine. I can't wait to taste your lips after you've tasted me.
He talks about you also drinking from him but if you were a regular spawn doing so would turn you into a true vampire.

Yes, that's an important point too! Astarion himself offers Tav to drink his blood, Astarion wants it (the player doesn't even ask him to do so, asking a question solely about their blood). “I can't wait to taste your lips after you've tasted me”. - Drinking each other's blood is seen by Astarion as an act of love, something that is impossible between a vampire master and a common spawn.

There is a developer note that AA doesn't mean it when he says he will make you a full vampire.

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
Originally Posted by Marielle
Originally Posted by Kurophina
Quote
Player: Will you still drink my blood?
Astarion: Of course I will, and you'll drink mine. I can't wait to taste your lips after you've tasted me.
He talks about you also drinking from him but if you were a regular spawn doing so would turn you into a true vampire.

Yes, that's an important point too! Astarion himself offers Tav to drink his blood, Astarion wants it (the player doesn't even ask him to do so, asking a question solely about their blood). “I can't wait to taste your lips after you've tasted me”. - Drinking each other's blood is seen by Astarion as an act of love, something that is impossible between a vampire master and a common spawn.

There is a developer note that AA doesn't mean it when he says he will make you a full vampire.

Actually this is not true. The note only appears for the "rare" ending in which Tav is not a spawn, but approaches AA at the epilogue to turn them. There is no devnote that he's lying if Tav trusts him to turn them off the bat.

Edit to show
https://ibb.co/NjrjPRw

https://ibb.co/K52Rsgr

Since you're correct that the writers go out of their way to tag when he does lie, they would have done so here were that also the case. And these are the lines most players will encounter. Less so the rare ending.

Last edited by Natasy; 21/10/24 12:49 AM.
Joined: Dec 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2023
Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
Saying that AA performed the Dark Kiss ritual is picking some pieces out while ignoring the other pieces that contradict what actually happens in the game. Of course, people can enjoy whatever headcanons they like and roleplay however they like. I fully support that. But I don't agree with an inaccurate fan theory being pushed as canon and as the reason Larian should NOT finish polishing vampire spawn Tav/Durge. Especially if we all agree Tav/Durge is some type of vampire spawn.


Could you then please explain in more detail what the definition of “some type” is, which is canon. “Some type” is a very vague definition. I don't see a "we all agree" if it isn't even clearly defined which type of spawn Tav should be. Because if it's just "some type", then it's apparently not entirely clear what canon is and I find it just as difficult to agree with this, because it's just headcanon from others. Not a good basis for discussion.

Last edited by Sini; 21/10/24 12:48 AM.

"Now, was that civilized? No, clearly not. Fun, but in no sense civilized" ~ Braingremlin
Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Natasy
Actually this is not true. The note only appears for the "rare" ending in which Tav is not a spawn, but approaches AA at the epilogue to turn them. There is no devnote that he's lying if Tav trusts him to turn them off the bat.
It is a developer note that shows how he feels about turning Tav/Durge into a full vampire. I don't see why he would be lying in one instance and not the other. He also does not do it in the 6 months you're together, which casts even more on his claim that he would make Tav/Durge a full vampire.

Originally Posted by Sini
Could you then please explain in more detail what the definition of “some type” is, which is canon. “Some type” is a very vague definition. I don't see a "we all agree" if it isn't even clearly defined which type of spawn should be Tav. Because if it's just "some type", then it's apparently not entirely clear what canon is and I find it just as difficult to agree with this, because it's just headcanon from others. Not a good basis for discussion.

I don't really understand what you're saying. But if you look at previous messages, even people who believe in the vampire spouse theory agreed that Tav/Durge is a vampire spawn. That's what I'm referring to. Not to mention both dev notes and AA refer to Tav/Durge as a vampire spawn. So because Tav/Durge is a vampire spawn, Larian should make them more spawn-like in the game. For example, red eyes, fangs, bite marks, unable to use mirror, etc.

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
I don't want to get too far off track but this is a bit circular reasoning. The "true vampire" line comes before turning. And he does indeed give Tav his blood after the line. I don't agree with your logic that the tag line matters, then doesn't matter when it's not there. Given there is written indication when he is lying, it would be pure supposition on the players part to decide if he is or not without a tag. Which could be said about any of the companions at any point. Why would they tag it in one route but not the regular one? So we can agree to disagree there! No harm. Just wanted to point out the facts:)

I added the devnotes if that will help you! But to get back on track, fangs would be lovely! I don't mind not much else changing, though, given he's a living vampire. And most things seem to be addressed by dialogue. Ie 'it will be more pleasure than pain' not leaving a bite mark, and 'not much will change for you' because AA is homebrew. Who knows which aspects of living Tav would keep from a living sire. I think it makes sense!

Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
"I don't agree with your logic that the tag line matters, then doesn't matter when it's not there."
I actually said that I think it matters either way? Because AA is still the same character in either instance. But yes, without a dev note on the normal route it can be up to interpretation. I personally see AA as the same person regardless of when the turning happens, but someone could argue differently.

Yes, I think fangs would be great! I do think a bite would leave a mark. I'm covered in scars from my cat just moving around on my lap. He was not attacking me but still left marks that take forever to heal. I can see the bite marks being more subtle than Astarion's, though.

I took "not much will change for you" as AA trying to reassure the player. It may or may not be true. He doesn't really know, since he's the first Vampire Ascendant. I also think he would express surprise if Tav/Durge did not look like a typical vampire spawn. But he doesn't, which indicates to me that Tav/Durge is supposed to look like one.

Last edited by 🌸Yume🌸; 21/10/24 01:16 AM.
Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
Lol gotta love cats. It's reasonable to assume it would leave a scar as well tbf. I was actually a bit shocked to see people asking for changes because I find it pretty easy to roleplay with but that could easily just be me. More subtle bite marks could make sense. Would also be cool if they looked a bit...ornate? Like it had script or something colorful or infernal to it. Just to show the power of the Ascendent behind it.

Yeah I assume he means it literally, as in, he's going to do his best to keep much from changing because "you're already perfect before. It's hard to improve." It's hard to say what he does and doesn't know because he seems to be able to extend *some* things to Tav objectively. He can learn quite a few things from reading, including the ascension ritual on his own! So I do take him literally there. Though motivation is ofc up to roleplay.

Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Natasy
Would also be cool if they looked a bit...ornate? Like it had script or something colorful or infernal to it. Just to show the power of the Ascendent behind it.

That is a cool and unique idea!

Joined: Dec 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2023
It was more related to your statement about the inaccurate fan theory that you don't want to become canon. Others say it was always canon. Therefore I would be interested to know what the definition of “some type of spawn” would be. But ok, it's just about appearances, Fangs would be nice. Overall, I think that if Larian should ever changes anything in the game with patch 8, they should pay more attention to other things.


"Now, was that civilized? No, clearly not. Fun, but in no sense civilized" ~ Braingremlin
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
Quote
AA became an actual vampire like a day ago. If you say his 200 years as a vampire spawn count, he still only falls into the Old category, not Ancient:

Old: 200-299 years
Very Old: 300-399 years
Ancient: 400-499 years
Astarion becomes a vampire ascendant, he's an entire homebrew. I don't really see the lore having to match 1:1 based on the fact that he's an entire new type of vampire. He's the first living vampire, it makes sense that he'll be able to gain powers that would normally take a long time to obtain.

Quote
This makes it clear that a LOT of blood is coming out of the sire in the Dark Kiss ritual. AA is very clear that he gives Tav/Durge just one drop of his blood. One drop will not be "gushing", a "fountain of wonder", and would not cause him blood loss.
Again, he's an ascendant, I think it's reasonable that his blood will be a lot more potent than that of a standard vampire and as such, one drop is strong enough.

Quote
Saying that AA performed the Dark Kiss ritual is picking some pieces out while ignoring the other pieces that contradict what actually happens in the game. Of course, people can enjoy whatever headcanons they like and roleplay however they like. I fully support that. But I don't agree with an inaccurate fan theory being pushed as canon and as the reason Larian should NOT finish polishing vampire spawn Tav/Durge. Especially if we all agree Tav/Durge is some type of vampire spawn.
If you want to go with the bride theory, then he performed the "dark kiss ritual" in your roleplay. If you want to go with being a standard spawn then he didn't perform it. Whilst you can point out contradictions in the bride lore, a lot can easily be explained by the fact that he's an entire homebrew so standard vampire rules will not apply to him.

Joined: Feb 2024
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2024
Cazador ever only fed Astarion putrid rats. Tav gets a drop of his (the vampire lord himself) blood and as much blood as they want, well, each short rest. There is no need for anyone to make something up to fit their canon when it's already in the game.

Honestly the best thing they could add on this is Tavs fangs. But like other have said other things and companions probably deserves more attention right now.

In regards to my spawn comments earlier, I've always felt Tav was a higher spawn, not a redo of Astarions history. A bride spawn seem to me to fit the bill quite nicely. But it's cool if someone else doesn't.

Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Kurophina
If you want to go with the bride theory, then he performed the "dark kiss ritual" in your roleplay. If you want to go with being a standard spawn then he didn't perform it. Whilst you can point out contradictions in the bride lore, a lot can easily be explained by the fact that he's an entire homebrew so standard vampire rules will not apply to him.

Everything you said is speculation due to AA being an ascended vampire. I can use that same homebrew argument to explain vampire spawn Tav's turning. It doesn't seem that in BG3 lore, vampire spawn absolutely must be buried. Sebastian and none of the Gur children mention getting buried when asked what happened to them. Getting buried is a major thing that someone would probably mention if it happened to them. Plus it is hard to believe that Cazador could bury and unbury 7000 spawn and still keep them a secret. Astarion confirms that he kept the 7000 spawn a secret. Cazador buried Astarion because he especially disliked Astarion. Burial doesn't seem required to make a vampire spawn in BG3 lore. Thus Tav/Durge can easily be a normal vampire spawn.

Originally Posted by KiraMira
Tav gets a drop of his (the vampire lord himself) blood and as much blood as they want, well, each short rest. There is no need for anyone to make something up to fit their canon when it's already in the game.

If you're talking about the ability to bite him on the map, I believe this is a gameplay-story conflict. There isn't another scene where AA gives Tav/Durge more blood. The coders and writers wouldn't be the same people. There's already plenty of instances where the story doesn't match the gameplay. In fact, that's why this very thread was created. And who are you talking about when you say "make something up to fit their canon when it's already in the game?"

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
@Kira well said. Given it's an Easter egg it's okay if people don't want to play it. I do wish the same sentiment was extended to people who do. Both are valid. Given the amount of detail people are willing to provide, it's pretty hurtful to be told I'm ignoring game canon when I'm presenting game canon just to be able to discuss my viewpoint at all.

Joined: Feb 2024
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2024
@Natasy Yeah, roleplay is very personal and not something everyone wants to share. Your viewpoint is valid, as is mine, as is others. I do not think you are ignoring game canon at all, more like working with it. As we all are.

Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Please do not twist my words. I just provided evidence against your point of view, which is perfectly allowed. Others were providing evidence against my point of view, so I responded. I've repeatedly said I have nothing against people's headcanons or roleplay. It is hurtful to be swarmed by people telling me that the way I view the game is wrong, when it is extremely supported by the game. And now I'm not even allowed to politely disagree without my words being twisted? Headcanon and canon are factually different. Anyone can headcanon anything they want, but that doesn't make it canon. And that's okay! Something does not have to be canon to be enjoyable!

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
Hm, maybe that's where the disconnect is happening. I don't think you're playing wrong. Which is why I've been saying your viewpoint is valid. When I provide text evidence, it's in hope that my viewpoint will also be acknowledged as valid. Not to disprove yours. My experience with literature and roleplay games is we're all just interpreting the same text in our ways. Two (and more!) interpretations *can exist beside each other. With roleplay there are multiple 'right answers'. Even in literary analysis there are many 'answers'. I'm not trying to take away your seat at the table by any means! Just hoping to stop being told that my roleplay is "not canon" while someone else's is true canon. My roleplay is based on in game facts. Just like yours:)

Joined: Feb 2024
M
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
M
Joined: Feb 2024
Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
Originally Posted by Kurophina
If you want to go with the bride theory, then he performed the "dark kiss ritual" in your roleplay. If you want to go with being a standard spawn then he didn't perform it. Whilst you can point out contradictions in the bride lore, a lot can easily be explained by the fact that he's an entire homebrew so standard vampire rules will not apply to him.

Everything you said is speculation due to AA being an ascended vampire. I can use that same homebrew argument to explain vampire spawn Tav's turning. It doesn't seem that in BG3 lore, vampire spawn absolutely must be buried. Sebastian and none of the Gur children mention getting buried when asked what happened to them. Getting buried is a major thing that someone would probably mention if it happened to them. Plus it is hard to believe that Cazador could bury and unbury 7000 spawn and still keep them a secret. Astarion confirms that he kept the 7000 spawn a secret. Cazador buried Astarion because he especially disliked Astarion. Burial doesn't seem required to make a vampire spawn in BG3 lore. Thus Tav/Durge can easily be a normal vampire spawn.

Whether you believe in the vampire bride theory or not, it seems pretty clear to me that the TAV is not a normal vampire progeny, just as AA is not a classic vampire thanks to the ascension.
It is said by Astarion himself that for the TAV things will be different because, having a drop of his blood, he can extend Mephistophele's blessing to the TAV (AA himself says so).
It has always seemed clear to me that with this "blessing" is not only meant protection from the sun, but also protection from some negative effects generated by vampirism. So, thanks to this small sharing of power, the TAV apparently maintains its human appearance and also human habits... and therefore also the possibility of still seeing their reflection in the mirror.
So no, I am not in favor of what the author of this thread suggests adding. The only additions, visible changes on the TAV that I agree with are: fangs, fangs mark on the neck.

Last edited by Mordred92; 22/10/24 05:06 PM.
Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Headcanon and canon are different. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that. I really don't know why people are getting upset about this. Your roleplay is based on the outdated 2e book that you referenced yourself multiple times. That is something outside of the game. There is nothing wrong with roleplaying however you want. This is a roleplaying game. But having a roleplay you like, does not automatically make it canon to BG3. And something not being canon is not bad or hurtful. It is just factual. It seems facts and emotions are getting mixed up here. I simply do not understand it. I am not dissing anyone's roleplay. Everyone is free to roleplay how they want. I am trying to clear up the facts.

Originally Posted by Mordred92
Whether you believe in the vampire bride theory or not, it seems pretty clear to me that the TAV is not a normal vampire progeny, just as AA is not a classic vampire thanks to the ascension.
It is said by Astarion himself that for the TAV things will be different because, having a drop of his blood, he can extend Mephistophele's blessing to the TAV (AA himself says so).
It has always seemed clear to me that with this "blessing" is not only meant protection from the sun, but also protection from some negative effects generated by vampirism.
AA cannot be sure of that, because he ascended like a day ago. It does seem Tav/Durge gets protection from the sun, probably to make it more convenient to the devs on the dock scene. Other than that, AA himself says they will have to see what symptoms of vampirism manifest once the tadpoles are gone. Meaning he doesn't know what he can even extend to Tav/Durge. Not to mention Tav/Durge gains the bite ability, indicating that they do have fangs. But their character model doesn't gain fangs, which is one reason this path seems incomplete.

Well, I'm glad that most of us do agree visible changes on Tav/Durge would be a positive at least.

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
Yeah how convenient then that only your roleplay is one true canon and everyone else's is delusional and made up. You seemed confused on the issue as to why people weren't validating you more, so I was just pointing out why. If you didn't couch it as "yours is made up delusion and mine is the one true right way", people wouldnt come to try and tell you why their interpretation is also valid. I think yours is HC. But do I use it as a talking point to shut you down? And tell you that everything you read isn't real and you're just crazy? No. And you're not going to have very productive conversations if your talking points revolve around treating the other persons take as make believe. "That doesn't happen. It does? Well it doesn't matter. It does? Well it doesn't happen" is circular and isn't in the spirit of good discussion. So, I guess don't be shocked people jump in when you're diminishing what people observe with their eyes as not real.

I've already shown to you that 2e isn't outdated nor irrelevant. I'm not upset. But don't appreciate the implication. Given I've been very gracious with your circular replies. Mainly I'm just...confused why you keep ignoring facts? But you're right. That's your right. If you're going to ignore facts and just say they don't exist, I can't imagine there will be anything productive in conversing with you. So we can call it there:)

Last edited by Natasy; 21/10/24 10:24 PM.
Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Wow. You're putting words into my mouth yet again. I'm not going to dignify your aggressive response with a reply, beyond that I showed 2e is outdated and not canon to 5e. Which you completely ignored. And yes, it is your right to ignore facts. So let's call it here.

Joined: Aug 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Aug 2024
I want to point out that Cazador never buried any of his 7000 spawns. Sebastian confirms it:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Quote
Plus it is hard to believe that Cazador could bury and unbury 7000 spawn and still keep them a secret. Astarion confirms that he kept the 7000 spawn a secret. Cazador buried Astarion because he especially disliked Astarion. Burial doesn't seem required to make a vampire spawn in BG3 lore. Thus Tav/Durge can easily be a normal vampire spawn.
Exactly this. Larian's intention is very clear for me, because otherwise it would be absurd to imagine Cazador personally digging all those graves gods know where (you can't dig a grave in the stone of his dungeon. Obviously.) Not to mention that kids don't mention being buried either, they only remember how Cazador was drinking their blood.

Cazador also shared his teleport powers with his spawns once Astarion got away. Confirmed by Astarion and other companions:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So it very well maybe be that Cazador also gave a single drop of his blood to his spawns to make them being able to turn into mist and teleport.

I don't believe Larian's intention was that 'bride theory'. Datamined files clearly state that Tav is AA's spawn, not his bride, and that Tav is not able to leave him once tadpoles are gone. Also, AA himself confirms that Tav is totally under his command. Why would he make Tav his bride then lie about it? Doesn't make any sense at all.

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
Because concealing how much power the sire has over its spouse is literally part of the lore lol. Have you not read it? You should! It's informative.

Also, the spawn are still underground. And we can see plenty of coffins. All spawn are bound to their coffin/grave/tomb, yet the first thing the PC can do is to travel the world with AA, unrestrained.

Is there any evidence they were teleported away because Cazador gave them his power? Why would he do that? He's a powerful mage. And has a staff that we witness ourselves as having the power to move them. Hes still compelling them before they disappear. I think it's very far fetched to say he made them true vampires.

But like I was telling your friend, cool. You have roleplay. Not trying to take that away from you. What's a little odd and mystifying is how hard you guys will fight to take away others roleplay and diminish it. My roleplay doesn't affect yours. We're all surmizing from the same text. The text you like won't vanish when I acknowledge other parts.

Edit to include Astarion himself saying they were pulled back:

https://ibb.co/k12gywd

Last edited by Natasy; 22/10/24 04:31 AM.
Joined: Aug 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Aug 2024
Quote
Because concealing how much power the sire has over its spouse is literally part of the lore lol. Have you not read it? You should! It's informative.
Doesn't make sense to me at all. If he wants to make Tav believe that they can't leave him then why would he make Tav his bride in the first place? If AA lies to Tav this means he doesn't want Tav to be able to walk away from him. It's very convoluted way, when he can just make them his spawn so they really can't walk away. Which he does. As confirmed by the game's files and the game itself, since you literally can't break up with him once your tadpoles are gone.

Also, just being underground is not the same as being buried at all. Sebastian doesn't recall being in a coffin. He clearly says he woke up in his sell. If you want to headcanon it like that, you do you, but don't claim something is canon when it's clearly isn't.

Quote
Is there any evidence they were teleported away because Cazador gave them his power?
Read companion's reactions again. All of them say that vampire spawns can't do that usually.

Quote
And has a staff that we witness ourselves as having the power to move them.
Do you suggest Cazador moves them from his palace with his stuff the same moment they need it? Because Dal and Petras teleport the second you approach them with the Blood of Lathander being turned on.
Cazador CAN'T read his spawns' minds. Hence, he can't move them by his stuff from a great distance.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Cazador also confims in his journal that he only was told by Dal and Petras about Astarion. I repeat, he can't see or feel what is happening to them through the distance. He can only give them an order. They are compelled once they try to go against his order, but they can't suddenly become super-vampires just because Cazador wants them to get their job done. Otherwise, spawns would have been always successful in their task of kidnapping Astarion. Spawns can only fight with the powers they already have.

Quote
I think it's very far fetched to say he made them true vampires.

I didn't say that. I said that sharing your power with your spawns doesn't make them your brides/husbands. Obviously. We have already this precedent with Cazador sharing his power of teleport with his spawns. Cazador shared his power of turning into mist and teleporting, but they are still his spawns. This is Larian's canon which is much more important than what you read from some very old outdated book of 2e edition.

Quote
What's a little odd and mystifying is how hard you guys will fight to take away others roleplay and diminish it.

This is not true at all. This thread is about asking Larian to fix what is already in CANON. I'm pointing out what canon is telling us. I've never said anything against your roleplay or headcanons. Just don't try to sell your headcanons as canon, when the game and it's files clearly say that Tav is AA's spawn and not his bride.

Quote
Edit to include Astarion himself saying they were pulled back:
It doesn't contradict what I said or what he said himself previously. Because he says so himself he didn't even know they can do that. Devnote confirm Astarion can't do that. What he meant is that they were pulled by Cazador's compulsion - i.e. - teleport once their health is near 0. To be able to do that they first need to have this power. I repeat:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Astarion is surprised that they can do that. It clearly states this as THEIR ability, not Cazador making them through some mind reading through the distance.

Last edited by Rote90; 22/10/24 04:41 AM.
Joined: Feb 2024
M
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
M
Joined: Feb 2024
Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
AA cannot be sure of that, because he ascended like a day ago. It does seem Tav/Durge gets protection from the sun, probably to make it more convenient to the devs on the dock scene. Other than that, AA himself says they will have to see what symptoms of vampirism manifest once the tadpoles are gone. Meaning he doesn't know what he can even extend to Tav/Durge. Not to mention Tav/Durge gains the bite ability, indicating that they do have fangs. But their character model doesn't gain fangs, which is one reason this path seems incomplete.

Well, I'm glad that most of us do agree visible changes on Tav/Durge would be a positive at least.
It seems to me that even though he ascended a day ago, he already knows what he is and is not able to do. In the dialogue after the night in which the TAV is transformed, AA already makes a list to the TAV of the things he feels able to do, while for others, as he himself says, it will take time to learn them. And the extension of the "Mephistophele blessing" is among those that he can already do, as he says "I am certain". Whether the protection from the sun was convenient for the devs or not, does not interest me: from the game it is clear that the TAV is protected from the sun, he has this power. And as far as I'm concerned, even for those minor aspects. As always AA says to the TAV, "You will not be different" and for me it means that the TAV will maintain many human aspects.

Last edited by Mordred92; 22/10/24 04:41 AM.
Joined: Feb 2024
M
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
M
Joined: Feb 2024
Originally Posted by Rote90
Cazador also shared his teleport powers with his spawns once Astarion got away. Confirmed by Astarion and other companions:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So it very well maybe be that Cazador also gave a single drop of his blood to his spawns to make them being able to turn into mist and teleport.

ll.

Cazador has never shared his blood with his spawn. It would be foolish and wasteful since they were only there to be sacrificed. If he had, I imagine Petras would have told Astarion right away. Spawns are able to transform into mist thanks to the powers of Cazador's staff, which also has the power to kill them in an instant.

Joined: Aug 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Aug 2024
Quote
Cazador has never shared his blood with his spawn.
It's never stated so in the game. Maybe he gave them one drop of his blood just like AA did with Tav.

Quote
It would be foolish and wasteful since they were only there to be sacrificed. If he had, I imagine Petras would have told Astarion right away. Spawns are able to transform into mist thanks to the powers of Cazador's staff, which also has the power to kill them in an instant.

I already provided enough evidence why it's not true. Because Cazador can't read their minds to control them with his stuff through the distance. He just can't know when they need to be pulled back.

Joined: Feb 2024
M
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
M
Joined: Feb 2024
Originally Posted by Rote90
Quote
It would be foolish and wasteful since they were only there to be sacrificed. If he had, I imagine Petras would have told Astarion right away. Spawns are able to transform into mist thanks to the powers of Cazador's staff, which also has the power to kill them in an instant.

I already provided enough evidence why it's not true. Because Cazador can't read their minds to control them with his stuff through the distance. He just can't know when they need to be pulled back.

Instead, yes. Astarion himself tells the TAV that his brothers were recalled in time by Cazador to prevent them from killing them. Which means that Cazador sees them and controls them. When Astarion's brothers arrive at the camp, it is Cazador himself who commands them to attack.

Joined: Aug 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Aug 2024
Ignoring my evidence that Cazador can't read minds won't make these facts go away, you know. Cazador gave an order to capture Astarion. The moment his siblings tried to go against this order, the compulsion turned on. It wasn't Cazador controlling them from the distance just like he can't control his spawns not eating thinking creatures from the distance with his magic staff. It looks like you've missed how his compulsions work. Origin Astarion clearly states that the only reason he is able to drink the blood of thinking creatures is because the tadpole protects him from Cazador's compulsions.Compulsions automatically turn on once spawns try to go against it. Cazador himself just gives an order, compulsions work automatically without him constantly watching over his spawns.

Quote
Instead, yes. Astarion himself tells the TAV that his brothers were recalled in time by Cazador to prevent them from killing them.
1. No, he doesn't. It's only your interpretation. In my interpretation, he meant that Cazador's compulsion made them teleport once their health is near 0. Cazador's compulsion and his magic abilities are very different things as we see when he pushes Astarion to his place in the ritual circle.
2. Even if he clearly said exactly that, he can't know this, because he literally just said that he didn't even know they can do that. If he knew Cazador could just pull them away by himself, he wouldn't be surprised.

Joined: Feb 2024
M
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
M
Joined: Feb 2024
Originally Posted by Rote90
Ignoring my evidence that Cazador can't read minds won't make these facts go away, you know. Cazador gave an order to capture Astarion. The moment his siblings tried to go against this order, the compulsion turned on. It wasn't Cazador controlling them from the distance just like he can't control his spawns not eating thinking creatures from the distance with his magic staff. It looks like you've missed how his compulsions work. Origin Astarion clearly states that the only reason he is able to drink the blood of thinking creatures is because the tadpole protects him from Cazador's compulsions.Compulsions automatically turn on once spawns try to go against it. Cazador himself just gives an order, compulsions work automatically without him constantly watching over his spawns.

.

It seems to me that you are the one who is ignoring obvious things in the game for this speculation about Cazador sharing his blood with his spawns. From what is said and shown in the game, Cazador has never done such a thing. Only AA has shared their blood with TAV and that's it.

Joined: Aug 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Aug 2024
I'm not saying that the blood sharing is canon. But the fact of sharing Cazador's power is canon, just like the fact that Cazador can't read the minds of his spawns is canon, confirmed by Cazador's journal and Astarion himself. Jaheira clearly states that Cazador shared his power with his spawns:
Quote
The spawn share in some portion of their master's power.
The way Cazador shared his power of teleport with his spawns is open to interpretation, since it's not explained in the game, so it very well may be Cazador giving them a drop of his blood just like AA. Nothing in the game contradicts this explanation. But I also don't claim it's canon. The only canon here is that, again, Cazador made his spawns being able to teleport and turn to mist, just like his own abilities allowed him to do. Which is very similar to AA sharing his ability to walk in the sun with Tav. Which means that Larian didn't make AA unique in this sense of sharing his power. He could have even lied about giving a drop of his blood.

Joined: Feb 2024
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Feb 2024
It seems you are moving away from the topic.
I want to say, there are some facts from the game, but there is no main correct canon. Why show off real canons here, which essentially do not exist. Why show devnotes, quotes from actors, etc. This is a role-playing game, and there is no canon here. Why should I know these devnotes, I am a simple player who just plays and enjoys the game, I see it the way I see it, why should I constantly poke "what is canon and what is headcanon, and therefore get out of here, this is just your headcanon, and this is canon, because I said so: here are devnotes, quotes from actors, developers, etc. I am right in short, and you are not. "
Just stop, just admit that everyone has their own headcanon, and there is no canon, and stop arguing and proving something to each other in a circle.
And finally, 2nd edition can still be used in games, GMs can refer to old texts for their games. So such an Easter egg as the vampire's bride is quite possible, that's what it is an Easter egg for, people in the know will just notice it. So devnotes where Tav is written as spawn have nothing to do with it, because it's just an Easter egg.
Well, getting back to the topic, yes, a bite on the neck would be nice, as would fangs.

Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
Volunteer Moderator
Offline
Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
Folks, discussing and debating abstruse points of lore is part of the fun of being a fan, but I note some posters here are sounding bad-tempered about it and that is not okay.

If you can’t keep it friendly and light, and be interested in and accepting of others’ takes, it’s time to step away from the discussion.


"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by illeaillas-san
It seems you are moving away from the topic.
I want to say, there are some facts from the game, but there is no main correct canon. Why show off real canons here, which essentially do not exist. Why show devnotes, quotes from actors, etc. This is a role-playing game, and there is no canon here. Why should I know these devnotes, I am a simple player who just plays and enjoys the game, I see it the way I see it, why should I constantly poke "what is canon and what is headcanon, and therefore get out of here, this is just your headcanon, and this is canon, because I said so: here are devnotes, quotes from actors, developers, etc. I am right in short, and you are not. "
Just stop, just admit that everyone has their own headcanon, and there is no canon, and stop arguing and proving something to each other in a circle.
And finally, 2nd edition can still be used in games, GMs can refer to old texts for their games. So such an Easter egg as the vampire's bride is quite possible, that's what it is an Easter egg for, people in the know will just notice it. So devnotes where Tav is written as spawn have nothing to do with it, because it's just an Easter egg.
Well, getting back to the topic, yes, a bite on the neck would be nice, as would fangs.

There is objective canon in the game. Canon exists. For example, it's canon that Astarion was an elven vampire spawn. One can headcanon that he's an albino drow. And they have the right to, but that wouldn't make it canon. And there's nothing wrong with that. Saying so is literally just discerning fact from a fun idea. I personally think dev notes in the actual game are more relevant to the game than a book that came out decades ago and doesn't match the theory. I hope your message is referring to both sides, because I'm not the only one who is debating canon here.

The reason people were debating headcanon vs. canon is because someone brought up this fan theory as the reason Larian should not polish off spawn Tav. But yes, I'd like for us to return to the actual topic at hand now. Especially since it seems most people are for some cosmetic changes.

Joined: Dec 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2023
The main contradiction is that Tav doesn't experience suffering during the transformation. Whether or not it specifically needs a funeral to convert to a spawn is certainly open to question. But this: “I remember how it hurt when I turned to a vampire. My body writhed and warped while I was utterly helpless, the grip of death owned my heart as it beat its last.” When I see such a clear logical contradiction - turning into a spawn must be painful and my character experienced no pain, I can't believe this spawn story. Even if we don't see the conversion process, Tav would have to remember the pain. If Tav experienced what Astarion experienced during the spawn conversion, Tav would definitely have lines about it. And in the case of the bride, yes, the bride doesn't remember the conversion process, just as Tav doesn't remember it. So the game in no way “speaks clearly” about Tav becoming Astarion's spawn, but rather instills doubt in the attentive player, making them wonder what actually happened to them during their conversion. Oh, and the very definition of Tav as a “consort” also goes hand in hand with the bride theory.

As for external changes, fangs are certainly needed. Tav will have fangs anyway, regardless of the player's roleplay and who they want to consider themselves to be. Fangs would be great. As for red eyes - also yes, beautiful ruby eyes like Astarion's are fine. Bite marks - also good, there will be even more external resemblance between the lovers, besides, the bite marks kind of emphasize Tav's affiliation with Astarion. I support these external changes.

I'm strongly against those changes that don't fit the story of the game, like no reflection in the mirror for Tav, cold body, etc. Astarion is perfectly fine reflecting in mirrors and Tav will be too, of course. Not that it matters to me personally, I can't remember the last time I had my own Tav approach a mirror, she doesn't say anything particularly interesting while doing so, it just wouldn't make sense.


One life, one love - until the world falls down.
Joined: Sep 2024
B
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
B
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Marielle
If Tav experienced what Astarion experienced during the spawn conversion, Tav would definitely have lines about it. And in the case of the bride, yes, the bride doesn't remember the conversion process, just as Tav doesn't remember it. So the game in no way “speaks clearly” about Tav becoming Astarion's spawn, but rather instills doubt in the attentive player, making them wonder what actually happened to them during their conversion. Oh, and the very definition of Tav as a “consort” also goes hand in hand with the bride theory.

Tav doesn’t experience what Astarion experienced because AA is something entirely different than cazador was. So who is to say that an ascendant vampire doesn’t have a different means of turning his spawn? He has more power than cazador had as his master, so the transformation and creation of spawn could and would certainly be different as well. Even if we disregard the fact that obviously cazador did not bury all his spawn, so that apparently is not always necessary, an ascendant certainly would have the power to ignore any „traditional“ aspects of creating spawn. As for the definition of consort, while sure it is connected to being married, it’s just a word. Just because he calls Tav his consort doesn’t mean they are a vampire bride / groom. Astarion lied before, why would he start telling the truth now? When I argue that AA says he has control over Tav as his spawn, you’d argue that he is just saying that aka lying. So why would he not be lying about this?

Either way, frankly the changes like eyes and fangs are too small to be noticeable in the game either way. Tav doesn’t open their mouth enough to make fangs for them. But they should have bite marks.

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
@blue ah, damn I didn't even think about the fact we wouldn't even *see* the fangs. And would DEFINITELY like to avoid a weird Nosferatu situation where fangs would poke out of the lips. That would be horrendous. So yeah maybe no fangs lol.

As for the rest, yeah. I think we're (not you specifically) fudging canon detail in game with interpretation. Which is *why* we got so little imo. To allow the widest possibility of roleplay and interpretation. Though I do think the idea of something ornate for a mark would be very cool. Though I do disagree that consort is "just a word". I think it's very intentional. BUT that is the perfect example of canon vs interpretation. It's canon he calls them consort. It's roleplay/interpretation to determine why. So I can accept your interpretation of the fact is different! But I do think glowing red eyes would be noticeable. We get a few other eye changes based on player choice. I'm pretty neutral on getting them though. I think we have enough to roleplay with and I personally appreciate they left it vague to roleplay.

Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
Originally Posted by Marielle
Whether or not it specifically needs a funeral to convert to a spawn is certainly open to question.
Here's some information about this https://ibb.co/0h0Nn14

And as for visual appearance, I always use the mirror to change my characters eye colour + add a bitemark (this is a mod though). It would be nice if they officially add a visual bitemark into the game, it definitely makes a lot of sense with the AA kiss where Astarion is looking at the players neck.

Joined: Sep 2024
B
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
B
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Kurophina
It would be nice if they officially add a visual bitemark into the game, it definitely makes a lot of sense with the AA kiss where Astarion is looking at the players neck.

good point, also the amount of times AA bites spawn Tav in his kisses would certainly leave bite marks at some point so maybe that would be a good visual change, since we would actually see it when he turns Tavs head to look at the neck. Doesnt AA say he didn’t want Tav to change too much „it’s hard to improve perfection“? While fangs would make sense since spawn Tav gets the bite action, Maybe he wouldn’t want them to display their vampiric aspects like that, including red eyes.

Joined: Nov 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Nov 2023
Originally Posted by BlueScaliesxx98
As for the definition of consort, while sure it is connected to being married, it’s just a word. Just because he calls Tav his consort doesn’t mean they are a vampire bride / groom. Astarion lied before, why would he start telling the truth now? When I argue that AA says he has control over Tav as his spawn, you’d argue that he is just saying that aka lying. So why would he not be lying about this?

Astarion asks Tav to be his forever - this is like a promise without the "till death do us part" inclusion. They act like a married couple, go together everywhere and also renovate the castle to create a new home for themselves. He also bitterly mentions "And if we were beholden to one another? Well... how is that too different to being enslaved?" during the breakup, yet again speaking about a vow to each other.

Joined: Dec 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2023
Originally Posted by BlueScaliesxx98
Tav doesn’t experience what Astarion experienced because AA is something entirely different than cazador was. So who is to say that an ascendant vampire doesn’t have a different means of turning his spawn? He has more power than cazador had as his master, so the transformation and creation of spawn could and would certainly be different as well. Even if we disregard the fact that obviously cazador did not bury all his spawn, so that apparently is not always necessary, an ascendant certainly would have the power to ignore any „traditional“ aspects of creating spawn. As for the definition of consort, while sure it is connected to being married, it’s just a word. Just because he calls Tav his consort doesn’t mean they are a vampire bride / groom. Astarion lied before, why would he start telling the truth now? When I argue that AA says he has control over Tav as his spawn, you’d argue that he is just saying that aka lying. So why would he not be lying about this?

No one can say for sure about the Ascendant Vampire, except Larian, because it's their invention and their authorship. Larian didn't give details about it, as well as there is no evidence in the game that could actually disprove the bride's theory. This is where we won't come to an agreement either way, as both readings are acceptable in the game. The bite marks could also be both on the spawn and the bride, this external change may fit well with either reading of the story.

Originally Posted by Kurophina
Here's some information about this https://ibb.co/0h0Nn14

Thank you!

Originally Posted by Ametris
Astarion asks Tav to be his forever - this is like a promise without the "till death do us part" inclusion. They act like a married couple, go together everywhere and also renovate the castle to create a new home for themselves. He also bitterly mentions "And if we were beholden to one another? Well... how is that too different to being enslaved?" during the breakup, yet again speaking about a vow to each other.

+100. Exactly! astarioncool


One life, one love - until the world falls down.
Joined: Nov 2023
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Nov 2023
Against any changes in Tav/DU.

Quote
“Leave the canon as it is”


Very true point.

Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
Astarion: You are so beautiful... And you will be beautiful forever. Thank you for trusting me.
This is the first dialogue from Astarion post-turning night. Looking visually different makes sense, at least with how I interpreted this line.

Astarion: You will be stronger, swifter, sharper, but you won't be different. You were already perfect before. It's hard to improve.
This is the dialogue line about already being perfect. I guess you could interpret this in different ways? I always read it as more in terms of the character as a whole - he sees the character as being "perfect" and it's hard to improve something that is "already perfect". But I could see how you can read this as him talking more about visual appearance.

Fangs definitely make sense, however adding fangs would be a lot more work than adding a bite mark etc. Fangs requires editing 3d files and having them fit for each head. Character teeth are included with the head model, too. Adding fangs would be editing the head meshes to replace the teeth mesh. I believe there is a mod on Nexus that adds all the vanilla heads with fangs? It would be really cool if someone makes that for console players.

Adding a visual bite mark is much easier to do, a mod exists for this but it replaces a facial scar. Obviously this is limiting for people who may already use a facial scar on their character as the game only allows you to use one facial scar. It'd be nice if they officially added a visual bite mark into the game, I'm not sure on the best way to add that, though. Some people might not want a visual bite mark on their character.

I think for eyes, you can already change this by using the mirror as soon as you wake up. Obviously it would be nice waking up with red eyes but I think manually changing it is probably best as maybe not everyone wants their character with red eyes. I know there's a few red eye options already, I'm using a mod that adds companion colours in the character creator (skin tone, eye colour, hair colour etc). I change my characters eyes to "Astarions" post-turning night. ^^

Joined: Nov 2023
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Nov 2023
Originally Posted by Kurophina
Astarion: You are so beautiful... And you will be beautiful forever. Thank you for trusting me.
This is the first dialogue from Astarion post-turning night. Looking visually different makes sense, at least with how I interpreted this line.

Astarion: You will be stronger, swifter, sharper, but you won't be different. You were already perfect before. It's hard to improve.
This is the dialogue line about already being perfect. I guess you could interpret this in different ways? I always read it as more in terms of the character as a whole - he sees the character as being "perfect" and it's hard to improve something that is "already perfect". But I could see how you can read this as him talking more about visual appearance.

Fangs definitely make sense, however adding fangs would be a lot more work than adding a bite mark etc. Fangs requires editing 3d files and having them fit for each head. Character teeth are included with the head model, too. Adding fangs would be editing the head meshes to replace the teeth mesh. I believe there is a mod on Nexus that adds all the vanilla heads with fangs? It would be really cool if someone makes that for console players.

Adding a visual bite mark is much easier to do, a mod exists for this but it replaces a facial scar. Obviously this is limiting for people who may already use a facial scar on their character as the game only allows you to use one facial scar. It'd be nice if they officially added a visual bite mark into the game, I'm not sure on the best way to add that, though. Some people might not want a visual bite mark on their character.

I think for eyes, you can already change this by using the mirror as soon as you wake up. Obviously it would be nice waking up with red eyes but I think manually changing it is probably best as maybe not everyone wants their character with red eyes. I know there's a few red eye options already, I'm using a mod that adds companion colours in the character creator (skin tone, eye colour, hair colour etc). I change my characters eyes to "Astarions" post-turning night. ^^

Thank you, Kurophina ^^
I agree with this. In the end, all these cosmetic changes can be fixed with mods, and yes, it's canon that Tav/Du sees themselfs in the mirror. Let it stay that way, there's no need to change.

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
@Every I agree the mirror reflection should stay. Given Tavs sire is a living vampire, and we already know they get some positive effects of fewer banes from it. I think Tav keeping their reflection makes perfect sense in that context!

Joined: Nov 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
Originally Posted by Marielle
The main contradiction is that Tav doesn't experience suffering during the transformation. Whether or not it specifically needs a funeral to convert to a spawn is certainly open to question. But this: “I remember how it hurt when I turned to a vampire. My body writhed and warped while I was utterly helpless, the grip of death owned my heart as it beat its last.”

Agreed. It's either a plot hole or it was done specifically for attentive players.
Also another point, the fact that Tav goes to hell with Karlach, which is added in patch 6. Did Astarion not have time to ‘say the word’? Or he really didn't want to and it's unpleasant for him to have them ‘together forever’ without mutual consent - which is relevant for the epilogue, where he can in theory do anything. Or he really couldn't. Or all of the above together.

Those words about ‘one drop’ of blood are italicised in the text. Which kind of hints that something unusual has happened, kind of a key word.

About the cold body, Tav could ask about it before turning and it could be a reason to refuse. But beyond that again, it's not discussed in any way.

Astarion could bite in a place only visible to him alone so... Tav in general should be all in bites technically if Astarion was drinking in Act 1 (and the whole game).

I also wrote that the ‘blood rule’ in Act 1 Astarion planned to become a True Vampire who could rule the coven, which contradicts the idea of ‘allowing’ blood drinking - the game forgot in Act 3.
We don't discuss this in any way and we don't have full blood lore information in BG3.
In act 2 the drow blood merchant, ‘I always recognise a spawn’ - Tav-spawn - zero reaction - the game forgot.

Perfect description of how the game treats the whole vampirism thing.

Larian didn't want to write something like cliché, so the focus is off vampirism, but it's hard when your character is in ‘classic vampirism’ in the DnD universe. (or is it a cut content thing)
It requires a balance of original and old (which is part of DnD). So we'd learn about vampirism, then be able to recognise the story with its original elements. But there seems to be little explanation or attention given to this in the game text.

And when the game suddenly remembers and focuses on the player who plays for evil... look, there's hardcore vampirism for u ;з
Remember what you sacrifice for our only man for evil, remember.
What drop of blood the first living vampire, and Tav non-burning in the sun in final? Ahah, never mind. groovy

About the other parts. We can't, for example, learn about the coven - those who rule them, their statuses (I think hence the word Consort, although Minthara calls Tav in the romance the same), the culture and history of the vampires. Nothing about. Not about how Astarion feels about eternity and vampirism, other than the occasional phrase. No discussion of this with Tav at all. Maybe Tav-friend helped Astarion defeat the Master because he doesn't want to get old and wants eternal life - we don't get a chance to inquire.
Tav tastes blood for the first time and they don't discuss the taste - just a waste. In the first act was about it. ‘What companions taste like’.

Anything that can be assumed about the Ascension is headcanon until it is written in the text, or a theory with examples and direct points from the text.
That's why the Bride Theory is called a theory, it has examples that have been well described before me. Which coincide and tie the story to the lore which is well written, with enough care.

Forgetting, contradicting yourself or making up a new one and not explaining it - that's the way it looks. And if an explanation begins, it seems inevitable that there will be a contradiction, as has happened before.

Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Ametris
Astarion asks Tav to be his forever - this is like a promise without the "till death do us part" inclusion. They act like a married couple, go together everywhere and also renovate the castle to create a new home for themselves. He also bitterly mentions "And if we were beholden to one another? Well... how is that too different to being enslaved?" during the breakup, yet again speaking about a vow to each other.

Why are you comparing marriage to slavery? That's disturbing.

Originally Posted by Every
it's canon that Tav/Du sees themselfs in the mirror. Let it stay that way, there's no need to change.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but if you're talking about the Magic Mirror, I think that is just a gameplay mechanic. Many RPG games add a way to let players change their appearance after character creation. If it was canon to the story that Tav/Durge can change nearly everything about them through a Magic Mirror, I'd expect there to be commentary on the mirror and for companions to comment on the new look.

Joined: Sep 2024
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Kurophina
Astarion: You are so beautiful... And you will be beautiful forever. Thank you for trusting me.
This is the first dialogue from Astarion post-turning night. Looking visually different makes sense, at least with how I interpreted this line.

Astarion: You will be stronger, swifter, sharper, but you won't be different. You were already perfect before. It's hard to improve.
This is the dialogue line about already being perfect. I guess you could interpret this in different ways? I always read it as more in terms of the character as a whole - he sees the character as being "perfect" and it's hard to improve something that is "already perfect". But I could see how you can read this as him talking more about visual appearance.

Fangs definitely make sense, however adding fangs would be a lot more work than adding a bite mark etc. Fangs requires editing 3d files and having them fit for each head. Character teeth are included with the head model, too. Adding fangs would be editing the head meshes to replace the teeth mesh. I believe there is a mod on Nexus that adds all the vanilla heads with fangs? It would be really cool if someone makes that for console players.

Adding a visual bite mark is much easier to do, a mod exists for this but it replaces a facial scar. Obviously this is limiting for people who may already use a facial scar on their character as the game only allows you to use one facial scar. It'd be nice if they officially added a visual bite mark into the game, I'm not sure on the best way to add that, though. Some people might not want a visual bite mark on their character.

I think for eyes, you can already change this by using the mirror as soon as you wake up. Obviously it would be nice waking up with red eyes but I think manually changing it is probably best as maybe not everyone wants their character with red eyes. I know there's a few red eye options already, I'm using a mod that adds companion colours in the character creator (skin tone, eye colour, hair colour etc). I change my characters eyes to "Astarions" post-turning night. ^^

I agree with all this! its prob a lot of effort to edit the meshes which is why I enjoy playing a tiefling :3 my character already has cute little fangs. I give my character the modded bite scar after like the third time he bites her & her eyes are already red so pretty much nothing changes for my OC when I ascend him, like maybe I make her a touch paler.

Originally Posted by Marielle
The main contradiction is that Tav doesn't experience suffering during the transformation. Whether or not it specifically needs a funeral to convert to a spawn is certainly open to question. But this: “I remember how it hurt when I turned to a vampire. My body writhed and warped while I was utterly helpless, the grip of death owned my heart as it beat its last.” When I see such a clear logical contradiction - turning into a spawn must be painful and my character experienced no pain, I can't believe this spawn story. Even if we don't see the conversion process, Tav would have to remember the pain. If Tav experienced what Astarion experienced during the spawn conversion, Tav would definitely have lines about it. And in the case of the bride, yes, the bride doesn't remember the conversion process, just as Tav doesn't remember it. So the game in no way “speaks clearly” about Tav becoming Astarion's spawn, but rather instills doubt in the attentive player, making them wonder what actually happened to them during their conversion. Oh, and the very definition of Tav as a “consort” also goes hand in hand with the bride theory.

I agree with this. Overall, I think its complicated with the vampire bride theory bc we have no way of confirming it sadly. I don't think tav or durge is a normal spawn because we never were turned like he was, we just wake up in bed & can now bite ppl (astarions my first victim to bite :3)and on a personal note I like that the theory exists bc heck yeah I'd love for my character to be his eternal bride lol.

Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but if you're talking about the Magic Mirror, I think that is just a gameplay mechanic. Many RPG games add a way to let players change their appearance after character creation. If it was canon to the story that Tav/Durge can change nearly everything about them through a Magic Mirror, I'd expect there to be commentary on the mirror and for companions to comment on the new look.

They are referring to clicking on mirror objects in the game and your character will have a voiced dialogue about seeing their reflection. Each companion have unique dialogue that they'll say when interacting with mirrors. Astarion obviously will have dialogue reflecting the fact that he can't see his reflection but after Ascension, he gets new dialogue when clicking mirrors since he can see his reflection again.

Joined: Dec 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2023
As far as I know, the bitemarks on the neck replace the burn scars.

For my bite marks on my body I need unique_tav.

Red eyes are no problem.

Replacing the teeth wasn't that difficult, I just make it quick in Blender at the Female Elf Head. It would be interesting to see whether the facial expressions fit. Yes it looks scary ^^

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


"Now, was that civilized? No, clearly not. Fun, but in no sense civilized" ~ Braingremlin
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
Originally Posted by Sini
As far as I know, the bitemarks on the neck replace the burn scars.

For my bite marks on my body I need unique_tav.
The mod has two files, one that replaces the burn scar and one that replaces the scars that Sebastian has. I use the chin scar replacement since I've never seen other NPCs, besides Sebastian, using it so there's no issue of seeing random NPCs with bite marks xD
Also unique_tav isn't required for the mod by the way, I don't use unique_tav at all ^^

Originally Posted by Sini
Replacing the teeth wasn't that difficult, I just make it quick in Blender at the Female Elf Head. It would be interesting to see whether the facial expressions fit. Yes it looks scary ^^
I still need to edit the head mod I use to add fangs, the toolkit has been a bit of a headache to use unfortunately, it likes crashing on me xD

Joined: Nov 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Nov 2023
Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
Originally Posted by Ametris
Astarion asks Tav to be his forever - this is like a promise without the "till death do us part" inclusion. They act like a married couple, go together everywhere and also renovate the castle to create a new home for themselves. He also bitterly mentions "And if we were beholden to one another? Well... how is that too different to being enslaved?" during the breakup, yet again speaking about a vow to each other.

Why are you comparing marriage to slavery? That's disturbing.

This is your takeaway from my post? I quoted Astarion's words he utters when he's coping with the fact that Tav rejected him and trying to convince himself and his former lover the outcome is for the best. The important part of the quote is "if we were beholden to one another".

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
@Ametris your point was very clear! That person just seemed to want to insult. That's a huge reach just to twist what you said, and a really wild misinterpretation tbh. Would like to think we could refrain from name calling and calling each other "disturbing" and just converse like adults. There's nothing wrong with the point you made and you quoting the game is not "disturbing":)

I agree, there are a lot of 'wedded' allusions between AA and his LI. He even mentions a dowry. So I think you make a very good point! The dynamic between the PC and Astarion is observably different than when he was a spawn. So, to me it makes sense that it's reflected in Tavs minimal appearance change and lack of typical vampire weaknesses. It lines up with other aspects present in the game. I understand others might want more! But I don't think it takes away from the story or is necessarily a plot hole if things stay the same.

Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
Volunteer Moderator
Offline
Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
I say again …

Originally Posted by The Red Queen
Folks, discussing and debating abstruse points of lore is part of the fun of being a fan, but I note some posters here are sounding bad-tempered about it and that is not okay.

If you can’t keep it friendly and light, and be interested in and accepting of others’ takes, it’s time to step away from the discussion.

Please bear in mind forum rules, including that it’s all our responsibility to keep this a safe and positive community which means neither starting nor perpetuating drama. If you see others failing to behave as we hope, please don’t respond in kind but either de-escalate or else just report and disengage.

By participating here, you are agreeing to engage with folk with whom you may disagree civilly and respectfully, and there is no good reason why such disagreements can’t be friendly. If you’re not up for that, please take a break.


"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
The romance between AA and his LI definitely feels like a "vampire marriage" to me. On turning night, he is proposing an eternity together (as lovers) and rather than binding each other through paperwork, you bind each other through blood/vampiric bond. He also calls you his consort and a lot of the dialogues are "us, we, ours" etc.

Originally Posted by Natasy
So, to me it makes sense that it's reflected in Tavs minimal appearance change and lack of typical vampire weaknesses. It lines up with other aspects present in the game. I understand others might want more! But I don't think it takes away from the story or is necessarily a plot hole if things stay the same.
I like to change my characters appearance to have permanent bite mark scars/red eyes but I definitely think it's best when it's left as an optional thing rather than mandatory, especially since your character isn't turned in the standard way so a lot of people will come up with their own stories with how vampirism affects their character.

Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
@RedQueen apologies! Just wanted to assure Ametris there was nothing wrong with them. But I can do so in DMs, no problem!

Originally Posted by Kurophina
I like to change my characters appearance to have permanent bite mark scars/red eyes but I definitely think it's best when it's left as an optional thing rather than mandatory, especially since your character isn't turned in the standard way so a lot of people will come up with their own stories with how vampirism affects their character.

Yeah. And to be clear I don't think there's anything wrong with enjoying the changes either. I can see why they'd be fun. But I personally do see a strong reason for things to be a-typical. And enjoy it that way! Feels the most consistent *to me. I always tend to respect the aspects that remain vague in the name of roleplay. With mods I can decide which times I might want to have changes and which times I don't. That's really fun!

Joined: Nov 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Nov 2023
Originally Posted by Kurophina
The romance between AA and his LI definitely feels like a "vampire marriage" to me. On turning night, he is proposing an eternity together (as lovers) and rather than binding each other through paperwork, you bind each other through blood/vampiric bond. He also calls you his consort and a lot of the dialogues are "us, we, ours" etc.

Well said! The constant "we" and "ours" starts right after ascension:

Tav: 'You did it! I can't believe you did it!'
AA: 'I did. We did.'
Tav: 'Together this world will be ours.'
AA: 'Everything will be ours. Everything.'

Even when you call him a tyrant he still says: 'I won. We won.' It seems like he's completely enamoured of Tav and wants to be inseparable. There are multiple hints in the game that he had plans for Tav long before the ascension.

Originally Posted by Natasy
Just wanted to assure Ametris there was nothing wrong with them.

Ty! hug

Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
Originally Posted by Ametris
Even when you call him a tyrant he still says: 'I won. We won.' It seems like he's completely enamoured of Tav and wants to be inseparable. There are multiple hints in the game that he had plans for Tav long before the ascension.

This video shows the difference in one of the dialogue responses in the friendship vs romance path. I thought I'd link it as I think it's interesting!

Joined: Nov 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Nov 2023
Originally Posted by Kurophina
Originally Posted by Ametris
Even when you call him a tyrant he still says: 'I won. We won.' It seems like he's completely enamoured of Tav and wants to be inseparable. There are multiple hints in the game that he had plans for Tav long before the ascension.

This video shows the difference in one of the dialogue responses in the friendship vs romance path. I thought I'd link it as I think it's interesting!

It is interesting indeed! I really like what looks like a little slipup when he says "forever" which is a term more fitting for immortals and sounds like a promise between lovers and then corrects himself with "for good".

Joined: Dec 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2023
Originally Posted by Kurophina
For my bite marks on my body I need unique_tav.
The mod has two files, one that replaces the burn scar and one that replaces the scars that Sebastian has. I use the chin scar replacement since I've never seen other NPCs, besides Sebastian, using it so there's no issue of seeing random NPCs with bite marks xD
Also unique_tav isn't required for the mod by the way, I don't use unique_tav at all ^^

Thank you, I use the brand scar as replacement, since Sebastian's scar is used by my dream guardian. I need unique Tav für my body bitemarks, like wrist, collarbone etc. smile

I don't have any experience with the toolkit either. I don't know whether you can upload your own 3D meshes, textures, etc. or how to do that with the tool.

Last edited by Sini; 23/10/24 09:41 PM.

"Now, was that civilized? No, clearly not. Fun, but in no sense civilized" ~ Braingremlin
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
Originally Posted by Ametris
It is interesting indeed! I really like what looks like a little slipup when he says "forever" which is a term more fitting for immortals and sounds like a promise between lovers and then corrects himself with "for good".
The same channel also has a video comparing some scenes with Ascended Astarion on the friendship vs romance path, I find that to be really interesting too as you see a different side of the same character.

Originally Posted by Sini
I don't have any experience with the toolkit either. I don't know whether you can upload your own 3D meshes, textures, etc. or how to do that with the tool.
You can do all of those things. You can find various different modding guides on the mod.io website https://mod.io/g/baldursgate3/r
I still need to upload an edited head mesh for my character but I'm going to finish my current campaign before I get myself familiar with the toolkit.

Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Natasy
@Ametris your point was very clear! That person just seemed to want to insult. That's a huge reach just to twist what you said, and a really wild misinterpretation tbh. Would like to think we could refrain from name calling and calling each other "disturbing" and just converse like adults. There's nothing wrong with the point you made and you quoting the game is not "disturbing":)

I would appreciate if you were able to discuss your points civilly, instead of repeatedly insulting me and assigning malicious motives to me. I obviously meant the comparison was disturbing, not the person posting. It is very obvious since I said "that" is disturbing, not "YOU" are disturbing. And it did look like a comparison, given that it was all one paragraph in one context.

As for the mirror thing, Tav gains the bite ability but not fangs currently. If Tav being able to use a mirror right now makes it canon, does that mean Tav not having fangs is also canon? And Tav not having bite marks or red eyes? Sure, one could argue it is canon right now. But to be consistent, you have to accept ALL those parts as canon. To me, the spawn path just looks not completely polished. So I don't see these as "supposed to be" canon. That is just as valid an explanation for the mirror.

Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
Volunteer Moderator
Offline
Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
I would ask everyone to check for prior moderation interventions before responding to posts earlier in the thread, so as not to perpetuate unconstructive exchanges or end up falling afoul of forum rules about complying with moderator guidance. Let’s draw a line under any arguments.

I’d also ask folk to try to stick more closely to the topic of this thread so as not to rehash debates elsewhere. And to accept that different preferences are both perfectly valid and inevitable, whatever is in the game right now, and that people are both welcome to express them but also encouraged to recognise when they’ve made their point and it’s time to agree to disagree and move on.


"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
Joined: Dec 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2023
Originally Posted by Kurophina
Fangs definitely make sense, however adding fangs would be a lot more work than adding a bite mark etc. Fangs requires editing 3d files and having them fit for each head. Character teeth are included with the head model, too. Adding fangs would be editing the head meshes to replace the teeth mesh. I believe there is a mod on Nexus that adds all the vanilla heads with fangs? It would be really cool if someone makes that for console players.

Adding a visual bite mark is much easier to do, a mod exists for this but it replaces a facial scar. Obviously this is limiting for people who may already use a facial scar on their character as the game only allows you to use one facial scar. It'd be nice if they officially added a visual bite mark into the game, I'm not sure on the best way to add that, though. Some people might not want a visual bite mark on their character.

I think for eyes, you can already change this by using the mirror as soon as you wake up. Obviously it would be nice waking up with red eyes but I think manually changing it is probably best as maybe not everyone wants their character with red eyes. I know there's a few red eye options already, I'm using a mod that adds companion colours in the character creator (skin tone, eye colour, hair colour etc). I change my characters eyes to "Astarions" post-turning night. ^^

I agree with you. You correctly pointed out that different players may have their own ideas about their character's appearance, it may be important to the player, and I too think it's not a good idea to enforce any changes, it's better to instead focus on the accessibility of different appearance mods for console players so that everyone can create or change their character's appearance according to their preferences. It may be very important to some that their character looks exactly as they created them, it may be part of the character's backstory (for example, burn scars on the neck may be part of the backstory, and suddenly changing them to bite marks would be undesirable). Thanks for the info on the mod with adding the colors of companions!

Originally Posted by LiryFire
Astarion could bite in a place only visible to him alone so... Tav in general should be all in bites technically if Astarion was drinking in Act 1 (and the whole game).

It seems to me that since the game and DnD in general has the ability to regenerate minor damage (potions and healing spells), Astarion's bite marks, even if he drinks every day (which he likes to do astarionhappy) go away as soon as we heal from any damage received in battle. Otherwise we'd be walking around with not only bites, but also a huge amount of scars from sword strikes, spears, axes, spell burns, and more. In DnD, for you to have a visible scar, there must be a special reason for it, for example, if you pray to Malar, scars from victories and defeats (from significant fights) have a divine nature and remain despite healing (in BG3, Shadowheart's scar has a divine nature). Either the scars are magical in nature (like the scars on Astarion's back or his bite marks) then they remain a priori. In DnD, a bite mark received during conversion is magical in nature, Cazador should have had a bite mark from Vellioth, just as Astarion had a bite mark from Cazador. But if we consider that Tav should have a bite mark as a symbol of conversion and that this mark is magical in nature, then we are again stymied by the fact that Astarion is the first Ascended living vampire and what happens when he turns his consort is not fully known. So I think the bite mark on Tav's neck in their story - may be a matter of voluntary and dependent on Tav's wishes. Astarion can turn Tav without leaving a mark, but if Tav wants to have such a mark as a symbol, as a kind of “mark of belonging” to Astarion, he will certainly be pleased with this wish and the mark will remain. This could be roleplayed with a mod. Of course, it would be great to have a replica for Tav in the game so that Tav could ask Astarion to leave a mark, in which case the player would get a bite mark, and if this option is ignored, Tav would wake up without a mark as is the case now. But there should be fangs anyway - it's not as if Tav is going to drink blood through a tube, is it? Although, if there are serious technical difficulties with implementing vampire fangs for Tav, it could well be left to the modders or to the player's imagination.

Originally Posted by LiryFire
In act 2 the drow blood merchant, ‘I always recognise a spawn’ - Tav-spawn - zero reaction - the game forgot.

Or maybe Oblodra wouldn't recognize the spawn because she's facing a vampire bride? Though she would recognize a vampire anyway. Unless she doesn't know about such a vampire as a bride, can't tell what kind of vampire is in front of her, doesn't want to embarrass herself and show her ignorance, so she prefers to keep silent and not comment on Tav's vampire nature.

Originally Posted by LiryFire
Larian didn't want to write something like cliché, so the focus is off vampirism, but it's hard when your character is in ‘classic vampirism’ in the DnD universe. (or is it a cut content thing)
It requires a balance of original and old (which is part of DnD). So we'd learn about vampirism, then be able to recognise the story with its original elements. But there seems to be little explanation or attention given to this in the game text.

And when the game suddenly remembers and focuses on the player who plays for evil... look, there's hardcore vampirism for u ;з
Remember what you sacrifice for our only man for evil, remember.
What drop of blood the first living vampire, and Tav non-burning in the sun in final? Ahah, never mind. groovy

Hardcore vampirism in the offspring of the first living vampire, who himself does not conform to the vampire rules for DnD and is something else. Would his offspring be conforming? Extremely illogical. In that case, we should also add the scene after the epilogue, when Astarion absent-mindedly goes for a walk alone in the afternoon, Tav goes outside after him, but Astarion has gone too far away, Tav catches fire and runs away to cry behind the crates in the castle cellar. Meanwhile, Astarion is fidgeting at the tailor's, trying on his new suit. Truly hardcore. aargh

Originally Posted by jessiemeows
I agree with this. Overall, I think its complicated with the vampire bride theory bc we have no way of confirming it sadly. I don't think tav or durge is a normal spawn because we never were turned like he was, we just wake up in bed & can now bite ppl (astarions my first victim to bite :3)and on a personal note I like that the theory exists bc heck yeah I'd love for my character to be his eternal bride lol.

And with “Easter eggs” it's always like that - you need some additional knowledge to decipher it, otherwise the “Easter egg” will either go unnoticed or raise unanswered questions. For example, the UA route also has an easter egg - an inscription on a grave in Elvish. If the players who know Elvish hadn't translated it, we never would have learned our dear spouse's last name. In the game itself, no one will tell us what it says. And in the AA route, the easter egg is a vampire bride, and this also requires players to have additional knowledge from DnD/Ravenloft lore about the existence of this ritual and how it is performed.

My first victim was Gale. galeworried I wanted to see if poisoning would work on Tav (it did). And in the case of Tav biting Oblodra in combat, there are no negative effects. I think it would have been worth at least adding a nausea effect in this case, and it would have been even more fun to add a line from Astarion swearing about it, because biting nasty things is not a good idea. I like his swearing when Tav does reckless and stupid things, like drinking a potion made by Oblodra or putting on a mask in Ethel's hideout (also in Act 3). It's pretty funny-sounding, and there's such a peculiar grumpy care in those lines.

Originally Posted by Ametris
Originally Posted by Kurophina
The romance between AA and his LI definitely feels like a "vampire marriage" to me. On turning night, he is proposing an eternity together (as lovers) and rather than binding each other through paperwork, you bind each other through blood/vampiric bond. He also calls you his consort and a lot of the dialogues are "us, we, ours" etc.

Well said! The constant "we" and "ours" starts right after ascension:

Tav: 'You did it! I can't believe you did it!'
AA: 'I did. We did.'
Tav: 'Together this world will be ours.'
AA: 'Everything will be ours. Everything.'

Even when you call him a tyrant he still says: 'I won. We won.' It seems like he's completely enamoured of Tav and wants to be inseparable. There are multiple hints in the game that he had plans for Tav long before the ascension.

Yes, that's a beautiful feature of this romance! <3


One life, one love - until the world falls down.
Joined: Dec 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2023
Originally Posted by Kurophina
You can do all of those things. You can find various different modding guides on the mod.io website https://mod.io/g/baldursgate3/r
I still need to upload an edited head mesh for my character but I'm going to finish my current campaign before I get myself familiar with the toolkit.

Thank you. When I have time, I'll look into it in more detail. I'm not sure if the tool offers me new opportunities to create things quickly and easily. When I have an idea, I create it quickly and then keep playing.

But basically it would be possible to create a “vampire spawn kit” and make it also accessible for the console. It scares me that it has to be adapted to every head model. eek crazy


"Now, was that civilized? No, clearly not. Fun, but in no sense civilized" ~ Braingremlin
Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
His name written in elvish is an excellent point! To me, that's what an Easter egg is. It's not going to be something everyone will see and know. It reminds me of the Trespasser DLC for Dragon Age. It's a *huge* moment, and a good portion of it is spoken in elvish between a romanced lavellan and Solas without translation. It's then left to fans to decide what they're saying to each other and the underlying meaning. But it's still a pivotal moment in the story. For me, that's what the spawn/spouse thing is. It gives you all the factual data: Tavs "symptoms", Tavs transformation, and Astarion's references to them ("consort"). It's up to us to decipher. Which I personally really love! Would be a shame to lose that. Though I'm encouraged by others mention of fang mods. Couldn't visualize how that would play out. But if it's doable without looking crazy, cool!

Last edited by Natasy; 24/10/24 02:38 PM.
Joined: Nov 2023
J
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
J
Joined: Nov 2023
If I may briefly be very pedantic and go on an irrelevant tangent- it's written in Thorass, which is the common (so, clasically human) alphabet (the language itself is technically just English, so you don't need to know any languages to decipher it, just have the alphabet next to a screenshot). Elvish would be written in Espruar. And some nuances of his name (the accent in Ancunín) were only found out throughout datamines because of the limitations of the Thorass alphabet, as well, since it doesn't accommodate for accents. I'm not completely sure I would call it an Easter Egg, necessarily, since it's just the way they write things in that universe (for shop signs in the game and stuff as well), but it does require an extra amount of effort to figure out the transcription.

EDIT: However, his back is indeed written in infernal -which is both a made up alphabet and Latin, real language wise- I remember the transcription being something like "This soul cannot speak in the realm of the dead".

Last edited by jinetemoranco; 24/10/24 03:57 PM.
Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
If I may briefly be very pedantic and go on an irrelevant tangent- it's written in Thorass, which is the common (so, clasically human) alphabet (the language itself is technically just English, so you don't need to know any languages to decipher it, just have the alphabet next to a screenshot). Elvish would be written in Espruar. And some nuances of his name (the accent in Ancunín) were only found out throughout datamines because of the limitations of the Thorass alphabet, as well, since it doesn't accommodate for accents. I'm not completely sure I would call it an Easter Egg, necessarily, since it's just the way they write things in that universe (for shop signs in the game and stuff as well), but it does require an extra amount of effort to figure out the transcription.

EDIT: However, his back is indeed written in infernal -which is both a made up alphabet and Latin, real language wise- I remember the transcription being something like "This soul cannot speak in the realm of the dead".

The fact that you can even differentiate is impressive ngl. Admittedly jealous of your lore knowledge lol. The more I know the more I realize I don't know. That said,

>"but it does require an extra amount of effort to figure out the transcription"

That really my only point. I think my Dragon Age comparison is a bit more apt. Especially given your lore drop. But my point is, it's not uncommon for games games to put things in that beg further knowledge and aren't just 'outright' or even directly in game. Sometimes Easter eggs are even nods to other games or literature entirely.

Joined: Dec 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2023
Originally Posted by Natasy
His name written in elvish is an excellent point! To me, that's what an Easter egg is. It's not going to be something everyone will see and know. It reminds me of the Trespasser DLC for Dragon Age. It's a *huge* moment, and a good portion of it is spoken in elvish between a romanced lavellan and Solas without translation. It's then left to fans to decide what they're saying to each other and the underlying meaning. But it's still a pivotal moment in the story. For me, that's what the spawn/spouse thing is. It gives you all the factual data: Tavs "symptoms", Tavs transformation, and Astarion's references to them ("consort"). It's up to us to decipher. Which I personally really love! Would be a shame to lose that. Though I'm encouraged by others mention of fang mods. Couldn't visualize how that would play out. But if it's doable without looking crazy, cool!

Yes, it is when the “symptoms” add up and there is this feeling of “Eureka!”, which is what all the fun of “Easter eggs” is all about! To be honest, I wouldn't like to have everything “chewed up” and explained in games, like children, it's much more interesting to get intellectual pleasure from “deciphering” such moments as our bride theory or the mentioned dialog of lovers in Elvish.

Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
If I may briefly be very pedantic and go on an irrelevant tangent- it's written in Thorass, which is the common (so, clasically human) alphabet (the language itself is technically just English, so you don't need to know any languages to decipher it, just have the alphabet next to a screenshot). Elvish would be written in Espruar. And some nuances of his name (the accent in Ancunín) were only found out throughout datamines because of the limitations of the Thorass alphabet, as well, since it doesn't accommodate for accents. I'm not completely sure I would call it an Easter Egg, necessarily, since it's just the way they write things in that universe (for shop signs in the game and stuff as well), but it does require an extra amount of effort to figure out the transcription.

EDIT: However, his back is indeed written in infernal -which is both a made up alphabet and Latin, real language wise- I remember the transcription being something like "This soul cannot speak in the realm of the dead".

Thank you very much for the very interesting information! Especially for the transcription of the infernal. Regarding the store signs in the game - these signs also have the usual description, and don't need to be deciphered, while the grave inscription has no description in English, and requires effort to decipher on the player's part. That's why it looks like an “easter egg”.


One life, one love - until the world falls down.
Joined: Nov 2023
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Nov 2023
Originally Posted by Kurophina
The same channel also has a video comparing some scenes with Ascended Astarion on the friendship vs romance path, I find that to be really interesting too as you see a different side of the same character.

For sure! Strange to hear these lines too, once you're used to something different.

Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
However, his back is indeed written in infernal -which is both a made up alphabet and Latin, real language wise- I remember the transcription being something like "This soul cannot speak in the realm of the dead".

What a dour meaning... frown I always wondered what was actually written in there. Thanks for sharing!

Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Marielle
Yes, it is when the “symptoms” add up and there is this feeling of “Eureka!”, which is what all the fun of “Easter eggs” is all about! To be honest, I wouldn't like to have everything “chewed up” and explained in games, like children, it's much more interesting to get intellectual pleasure from “deciphering” such moments as our bride theory or the mentioned dialog of lovers in Elvish.

I think it's much better practice to have things that are vital to the interpretation of the game, explained in the actual game itself. It has nothing to do with childishness. Astarion's last name is nice to know, but not actually vital to anything. We view him exactly the same before and after knowing his last name. I find it hard to believe that this vampire bride theory is intended. It would completely change how this route is interpreted...yet Larian didn't think it should be mentioned in a game book or explicitly said? And Tav/Durge is called a spawn everywhere in the game and dev notes? That's why I don't see the vampire bride theory as an easter egg. I see it as a coincidence, which again only even partially matches the sourcebook.

Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
Volunteer Moderator
Offline
Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
Location: UK
Hi folks, please bear in mind the topic of this thread. The odd digression is fine, but please don’t derail the thread by going round in circles on side topics.

Let’s bring it back to the point of the thread.


"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
Joined: Sep 2024
A
stranger
Offline
stranger
A
Joined: Sep 2024
I’ve been lurking on this thread for some days now and just wanted to give my two cents. I hope I’m not coming off as attacking anyone‘s narrative, I just want to express my thoughts. There are currently two threads both discussing Astarions romance I hope it’s okay if I post it on both as it has to do with both threads.

I tend to agree less on the bride theory, and more on something similar like a special bond between AA and his partner, there are clues that support it in the game already. I don’t think it was intentionally made to fit the bride theory that was discussed earlier from the book from the 90s, but I can see how it could fit that as well. I think the way it is now is done very tastefully that the player has enough clues to be able to HC the full bride / groom ritual. On the other hand, I think it’s also enough to just see it as AA turning his partner into a normal spawn. I think it fits both HCs. In the end in the tavern scene, the player has the options also to play out both HCs. You either are fully with AA and support him as his bride / groom, or have the option to attempt a break up where he reveals that you can’t which would support a normal spawn path (whether he is lying or not doesn’t matter since we only know what he tells us). Since you can only choose one option / path (bride or spawn) it doesn’t matter that the other exists, you just don’t choose it and roleplay the way that fits your narrative. If you think his partner is a bride / groom, choose the supportive option, if you think his partner is a spawn, choose break up option (or don’t, of course, you can still be supportive as a spawn as well). Similarly with the epilogue. Choose the options that fit your narrative. It’s clear that AA is annoyed when his partner asks for freedom in the epilogue, but a bride / groom wouldn’t ask, so just don’t choose the option. Since you only get to choose one (I think) of the options in that dialogue tree, it makes more sense to choose something that would fit your narrative instead of „wasting“ that choice on something you don’t even believe. I think it’s done very well to accommodate All HCs for his romance.

What I want to say with this in general, I don’t think any changes should be made to AA‘s romance except for maybe the facial expressions. I think it’s already incredibly in-depth and offers the most options for HC out of all companions.

Joined: May 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: May 2024
Originally Posted by Natasy
(...) I agree, there are a lot of 'wedded' allusions between AA and his LI. He even mentions a dowry. So I think you make a very good point! The dynamic between the PC and Astarion is observably different than when he was a spawn. So, to me it makes sense that it's reflected in Tavs minimal appearance change and lack of typical vampire weaknesses. It lines up with other aspects present in the game. I understand others might want more! But I don't think it takes away from the story or is necessarily a plot hole if things stay the same.

I see it this way for sure, him constantly using the word "consort" for Tav/Durge and then mentioning a dowry has always seemed to me like it's alluding to a marriage of some kind - the two of them completely unified and closely bonded.

Never does he treat Tav/Durge like a slave in this partnership. He says "I'm with you my dear wherever this leads." He says to ask him for anything, and he'll give it. During the epilogue he reveals how much he does for them. If anything, he's the one spoiling Tav/Durge and making an effort to try giving them what they want and making them happy.
He says both of them are sovereigns - together.

The MC losing their reflection in the mirror wouldn't make sense to me because they were created by the first Ascendant vampire in the world - a Larian homebrew who can see his own reflection. It makes sense that the spawn or vampire spouse he makes would be given these same benefits, especially if he gave them some of his blood.
The term "spawn" would still make sense imo, because even a vampire bride/groom is still created by Astarion. They most likely just wouldn't be the typical kind of spawn. AA says Tav/Durge will have certain benefits (stronger, swifter, etc.) but they won't be different. We see later on that this appears to be true.

Joined: Sep 2024
B
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
B
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by AnjaBb
I tend to agree less on the bride theory, and more on something similar like a special bond between AA and his partner, there are clues that support it in the game already. I don’t think it was intentionally made to fit the bride theory that was discussed earlier from the book from the 90s, but I can see how it could fit that as well. I think the way it is now is done very tastefully that the player has enough clues to be able to HC the full bride / groom ritual. On the other hand, I think it’s also enough to just see it as AA turning his partner into a normal spawn. I think it fits both HCs.

What I want to say with this in general, I don’t think any changes should be made to AA‘s romance except for maybe the facial expressions. I think it’s already incredibly in-depth and offers the most options for HC out of all companions.

I can agree with that. I don’t personally subscribe to the bride theory, but I’m fine with the HC of a bride or some other special bond that hasn’t been seen before with an ascendant. Since fans already see parallels to the theory, I think it’s safe to say that the game had enough clues about it to make sense for them. Just like it also leaves room for other interpretations, which would fit other HCs more. Also agree on the facial expressions, just to add the aspect of RP there as well since it got lost with the new patch (as it was also odd with the other patch before).

Joined: Aug 2024
E
member
Offline
member
E
Joined: Aug 2024
I think red eyes, fangs and bite marks at least would fit both interpretations.
Astarion mentions he will miss Tav's warm skin, and in the epilogue, you can ask God Gale if it would be possible for you to ascend too. There is also party banter with Shadowheart about Tav's eyes having changed. I think these strongly indicate that Tav is supposed to have at least those spawn qualities. Another indicator is the bite attack the player gains, because it means Tav is supposed to have fangs, even if they are not currently visible on their character model.

Originally Posted by BlueScaliesxx98
Also agree on the facial expressions, just to add the aspect of RP there as well since it got lost with the new patch (as it was also odd with the other patch before).

I agree with this too.

Joined: Nov 2023
J
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
J
Joined: Nov 2023
Ah, I suppose that's a good point. Although SH doesn't specifically say "red eyes" but haunted complexion does seem to imply they're paler now. I guess you can technically bite without fangs particularly with super strength, but I feel like the implication is still present.

If I might raise another point for why I think the bite scar should be present... I'm pretty sure it's meant to be the reason why during one of the AA kisses he looks at Tav's neck for a couple seconds, particularly where he bit them. Looks like him going "that's right, I did that".

Joined: Aug 2024
E
member
Offline
member
E
Joined: Aug 2024
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
Although SH doesn't specifically say "red eyes" but haunted complexion does seem to imply they're paler now.

Oh, that's true, I looked it up again and it was only "hungry look in their eyes". Thank you!
Overall I think the banter implies some physical changes to Tav's appearance, because of Shadowheart's joking that 'something' is different and the teasing 'what could it mean'.

Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
If I might raise another point for why I think the bite scar should be present... I'm pretty sure it's meant to be the reason why during one of the AA kisses he looks at Tav's neck for a couple seconds, particularly where he bit them. Looks like him going "that's right, I did that".

I think so too!

Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Celesti4
Never does he treat Tav/Durge like a slave in this partnership. He says "I'm with you my dear wherever this leads." He says to ask him for anything, and he'll give it.

He says that, but if Tav/Durge asks to break up or asks for their freedom after the tadpoles are gone, AA refuses. So he isn't actually willing to give them anything and everything.

Originally Posted by Elly
Astarion mentions he will miss Tav's warm skin, and in the epilogue, you can ask God Gale if it would be possible for you to ascend too. There is also party banter with Shadowheart about Tav's eyes having changed. I think these strongly indicate that Tav is supposed to have at least those spawn qualities. Another indicator is the bite attack the player gains, because it means Tav is supposed to have fangs, even if they are not currently visible on their character model.

Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
Although SH doesn't specifically say "red eyes" but haunted complexion does seem to imply they're paler now. ...

If I might raise another point for why I think the bite scar should be present... I'm pretty sure it's meant to be the reason why during one of the AA kisses he looks at Tav's neck for a couple seconds, particularly where he bit them. Looks like him going "that's right, I did that".

All great points that show or imply something changed with Tav/Durge!

Joined: Feb 2024
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Feb 2024
Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
He says that, but if Tav/Durge asks to break up or asks for their freedom after the tadpoles are gone, AA refuses. So he isn't actually willing to give them anything and everything.

Which again may point to the bride theory. If we assume that Tav didn't like it, but he continued to be with Astarion, Tav has been in a relationship with Astarion for so long that he simply can't leave because Astarion convinces with his words that Tav is nothing without him. But the vampire lord from the 2nd edition, from the description of turning into a vampire's bride, says that the Vampire cannot influence the bride magically, he can only convince his spouse that without him she is nothing, pure manipulation. And in the end, if you try to break off relations with the lord, Astarion threatens Tav in every possible way in words, and Tav does not experience mental pain, as from magic, but simply sadly obeys, precisely because of the conviction that he really cannot do without Astarion. This also confirms that he is purely manipulating the bride, I mean with words, no mind control, this is that we can go to the Astral plane, to Avernus,or being converted, break off relations with Astaion before the end, and he does nothing about it, because there is no magical control over Tav, and when we meet at a party, he again speaks purely with words, trying to convince that it was he who allowed her to leave, go have fun while you can. And this is such an obvious lie that you just need to understand Astarion very well, when he is honest and when he is not.
A quote from the 2nd edition, just in case someone is too lazy to read:
"Although there are some folk tales that describe the bride of a vampire as its slave, in much the same way that offspring are slaves, a bride is free-willed from the moment of her creation. The creator vampire does have great influence over the bride, however, although this control is totally nonmagical. When a vampire is created in the traditional manner - that is, when a victim's life energy is completely drained away - the new fledgling instinctively understands much about the vampiric way of unlife, and about its own strengths. weaknesses, and needs. Not so the bride. Newly-created brides are generally ignorant of their own capabilities. If in life they heard folk tales and myths about vampires, they might have some vague conception, but often these tales are totally wrong. The bride is effectively dependent - totally dependent - on her creator, to learn how to survive as a vampire. This obviously gives the creator great power over the bride. By lying to her or bending the truth, he can convince her that she must obey his every order or suffer horrible consequences. With time, and through experimentation, the bride might find out the true level of control her creator has over her - that is, none. She is still in a very inferior position, of course, because she is a Fledgling and her creator is at least an Ancient. Some creator vampires - particularly those who created the bride out of love - will be totally honest with their creation, depending on loyalty, friendship and even reciprocated love, to stop the bride from trying to bring about their destruction. This is probably the most beneficial situation for both vampires, because two creatures cooperating are much more effective than two creatures involved in machinations against each other. A vampire and bride who truly love and trust each other make a team that is exceptionally difficult to defeat!"
If Tav is completely with Astarion, accepts him, then Astarion has no reason to manipulate. two happy consort vampires. My option.
even if it's an outdated edition, it's still part of the dnd lore.

Yes, you say, this is all your headcanon. Maybe so, but the game has such obvious hints that it is simply impossible to ignore.

Last edited by illeaillas-san; 26/10/24 04:36 AM.
Joined: Sep 2024
B
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
B
Joined: Sep 2024
@ illeaillas-san --- honestly, i am not sure i understand your point completely, but i think this is what @AnjaBb was speaking of as well. from what you said, i understand you think he does manipulate tav? sure, not because he has control over them from the bond between a vampire creator and his spawn, but using his words is still manipulation. this doesnt really speak to AA as being a loving partner either, which i personally tend to agree with, but dont know if that is what you were saying...


Quote
I tend to agree less on the bride theory, and more on something similar like a special bond between AA and his partner, there are clues that support it in the game already. I don’t think it was intentionally made to fit the bride theory that was discussed earlier from the book from the 90s, but I can see how it could fit that as well. I think the way it is now is done very tastefully that the player has enough clues to be able to HC the full bride / groom ritual. On the other hand, I think it’s also enough to just see it as AA turning his partner into a normal spawn. I think it fits both HCs. In the end in the tavern scene, the player has the options also to play out both HCs. You either are fully with AA and support him as his bride / groom, or have the option to attempt a break up where he reveals that you can’t which would support a normal spawn path (whether he is lying or not doesn’t matter since we only know what he tells us). Since you can only choose one option / path (bride or spawn) it doesn’t matter that the other exists, you just don’t choose it and roleplay the way that fits your narrative. If you think his partner is a bride / groom, choose the supportive option, if you think his partner is a spawn, choose break up option (or don’t, of course, you can still be supportive as a spawn as well). Similarly with the epilogue. Choose the options that fit your narrative. It’s clear that AA is annoyed when his partner asks for freedom in the epilogue, but a bride / groom wouldn’t ask, so just don’t choose the option. Since you only get to choose one (I think) of the options in that dialogue tree, it makes more sense to choose something that would fit your narrative instead of „wasting“ that choice on something you don’t even believe. I think it’s done very well to accommodate All HCs for his romance.


whether or not Astarion does have control of his spawn tav or not, we dont know completely, because there is no manual for it. it could be a bride / groom situation, or a normal spawn since AA is a new being as an ascendant, not only a vampire master like the book says. while the vampire master in the book can create a bride he does not have full control over, an ascendant could create a bride he DOES have control over. so everything about this is still a HC, which you can play as you like. you can HC a bride like in the book, free of control, or spawn under his control. as for being able to break up with him before the ending scene: he cant do anything against it, if he does have control of his spawn tav, because they still have the tadpoles. same reason cazador cant control astarion. the bride theory clearly says "Some creator vampires - particularly those who created the bride out of love - will be totally honest with their creation, depending on loyalty, friendship and even reciprocated love", so why does he lie? if he loves his spawn tav - his bride - why does he lie to manipulate them? like you said yourself, he does manipulate with words.

either way, like AnjaBb said, I can agree that you could see parallels to the book from the 90s, or not. both paths could be headcanoned without much effort. i just dont agree that the bride theory is the only way to see this relationship. it leaves a lot to RP which i think is good.

Last edited by BlueScaliesxx98; 26/10/24 11:18 PM.
Joined: May 2023
B
old hand
Offline
old hand
B
Joined: May 2023
Wall of text without caps - so did not read!

Joined: Sep 2024
P
stranger
Offline
stranger
P
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by BlueScaliesxx98
either way, like AnjaBb said, I can agree that you could see parallels to the book from the 90s, or not. both paths could be headcanoned without much effort. i just dont agree that the bride theory is the only way to see this relationship. it leaves a lot to RP which i think is good.

I agree with this as well. For the sake of RP I don’t think any changes should be made either to confirm or deny the bride theory. Since there are clearly two camps about this, I think it speaks more to the RP aspect and that it can be seen either way. One change I would like though is the facial expression during the kisses to change to something more neutral altogether or give us the option to choose between smiling or not. For example I play a durge who loves AA but struggles with dominance since he just rejected Bhaal. So during the game, he would struggle with the kisses, but I’m sure he will be fine in time. I just want to represent that as well. AA’s kiss animations (kneeling, biting and the neck thing) are amazing though and I would never want to change them. I’m glad they exist for AA and nobody else, especially UA. I don’t think their kisses are interchangeable at all.

Last edited by Purples20; 27/10/24 01:31 PM.
Joined: Dec 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2023
And I think we shouldn't misuse this thread to start a new discussion about facial expressions, which then escalates the forum again. This is about external vampire characteristics on Tav yes/no for and against.

Thank you.

Last edited by Sini; 27/10/24 01:50 PM.

"Now, was that civilized? No, clearly not. Fun, but in no sense civilized" ~ Braingremlin
Joined: Feb 2024
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Feb 2024
Quote
So during the game, he would struggle with the kisses, but I’m sure he will be fine in time. I just want to represent that as well. AA’s kiss animations (kneeling, biting and the neck thing) are amazing though and I would never want to change them. I’m glad they exist for AA and nobody else, especially UA. I don’t think their kisses are interchangeable at all.

I completely disagree with the notion that the Ascended Astarion would have non-consensual kisses that would cause discomfort for Tav. Kisses that would require Tav to "struggle," as you put it, imply that Tav is being coerced. From the very beginning, the game establishes an important aspect: he does not force Tav to kneel through power or fear, so Tav should not have to do so if they don't want to. The issue is that the kiss animations are simply cyclical and not tied to the main narrative.

Additionally, the scene where Astarion grabs Tav by the throat is based on Tav's initiative; it only happened because they expressed a desire for that kind of interaction. Astarion does not refuse to be gentle with Tav if that's what they want. He does not show aggression; on the contrary, he responds to Tav's request, so there shouldn't be any discord in their kisses.

I don't understand why Astarion's kisses are seen as magnificent, yet there's an assumption that they should invoke disagreement or discomfort. In my opinion, that doesn't make sense.

I'm sorry that the kisses of the Ascended Astarion don't take into account earlier interactions, but I disagree that the kiss mechanics, which are simply cyclical animations and a gameplay convention by their nature, provide a valid reason to overlook important aspects of his character for the sake of someone’s role-playing opportunity.

Joined: Sep 2024
P
stranger
Offline
stranger
P
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Denis999
I completely disagree with the notion that the Ascended Astarion would have non-consensual kisses that would cause discomfort for Tav. Kisses that would require Tav to "struggle," as you put it, imply that Tav is being coerced. From the very beginning, the game establishes an important aspect: he does not force Tav to kneel through power or fear, so Tav should not have to do so if they don't want to. The issue is that the kiss animations are simply cyclical and not tied to the main narrative


What are you saying? Don’t put words in my mouth! I never said anything about non consensual! My Tav asks for the kisses and goes on their knees of their own free will, I never said AA is forcing or coercing them to. For my RP this is an internal struggle, they WANT to do everything for Astarion and they DO. There is nothing wrong with internal struggle, they still kneel and let AA kiss them however he likes, because Tav also likes it. But they don’t have to smile from ear to ear for it. Please stop putting words into my mouth, especially since there is no non-con in this at all!!


(If you’d like you could compare this to Astarion and the drow twins. He still goes with Tav to them and then realizes he doesn’t like it that much. But he still did go)

Last edited by Purples20; 27/10/24 03:58 PM.
Joined: Mar 2024
member
Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2024
I disagree the faces aren't overall neutral enough for AA kisses.

https://ibb.co/72Vw7Mh

They look extremely neutral to me outside of like one weird goofy smile while kneeling
If that went, that's fine. But overall the kisses are perfectly neutral imo.

I think the other person is referencing the patch 6 faces. Which looked like Tav wasn't consenting. Which is problematic, and a lot of people don't want to see them return. I can't tell if that's what you're referencing when you say 'make it a choice'. But that's my guess.

That being said, this is a thread about Tav's vampire traits. Hoping we don't see another massive derail into this topic.

Last edited by Natasy; 27/10/24 06:02 PM.
Joined: Feb 2024
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Feb 2024
What you described just doesn’t seem consensual to me. Tav's "stone face" during kisses with the Ascended Astarion doesn't seem appropriate to me. It can lead to a number of negative interpretations, such as creating a sense of dissociation for Tav. Furthermore, it seems unfair compared to other characters. Currently, Tav has a rather neutral expression during the kissing scenes, even while kneeling, where it conveys restrained pleasure. This is especially noticeable when compared to the mod I've been playing with. The only clear smile appears during the throat grab — and that moment aligns with the script's dynamics. Tav enjoys this interaction, and that atmosphere should be maintained during kisses; otherwise, Astarion simply wouldn't engage in such actions.

I believe that the Ascended Astarion would be well-suited for the standard kiss animation from patch 5, which would match the moment when the player chooses tenderness, and Astarion gently kisses Tav's hand. It would be great if a new animation were added where Tav could kiss his hand — although I'm not really holding my breath for that and will probably have to rely on mods. By the way, a mod for neutral facial expressions has existed for quite some time.

Joined: Sep 2024
B
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
B
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Denis999
Currently, Tav has a rather neutral expression during the kissing scenes, even while kneeling, where it conveys restrained pleasure. This is especially noticeable when compared to the mod I've been playing with.

Exactly, compared to the smiling mod, the new expressions seem less enthusiastic. But in and of themselves they are absolutely not.


Now, since it has been pointed out, you can stop replying to this topic. This is not the topic of the thread, however much it is connected to AA and spawn Tav and I personally think it should be discussed.

Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Denis999
he does not force Tav to kneel through power or fear, so Tav should not have to do so if they don't want to.

This is untrue. Actually, AA coerces the player character to kneel to him by threatening to break up with them otherwise. If you tell him no repeatedly, he just keeps telling you yes and insisting you do it. Until you either give in or break up. The text of the turning scene kneel option even says "give in and kneel". Consent under coercion is NOT proper consent. It is dubious consent at best. "There’s no room for ambiguity or assumptions when it comes to consent." "Consent should be given freely and willingly. Repeatedly asking someone to engage in a sexual act until they eventually say yes is not consent, it’s coercion. Consent is required for everyone, including people who are in a committed relationship or married." "Coercion happens when someone wants you to consent when you’ve already said no or otherwise expressed disinterest. They might use threats, persuasion, and other tactics to get the outcome they want."

Some Tavs might enthusiastically consent to kneeling, but other Tavs may be reluctant. This is a role-play supported in the game options. And there is an element of AA coercing Tav regardless of how enthusiastic they are.

Quote
Additionally, the scene where Astarion grabs Tav by the throat is based on Tav's initiative; it only happened because they expressed a desire for that kind of interaction. Astarion does not refuse to be gentle with Tav if that's what they want. He does not show aggression; on the contrary, he responds to Tav's request.

This is not true. It happens to every Tav who asks for a kiss, whether or not they asked AA to be gentle or harsh in the past. And asking for a kiss is NOT the same thing as asking for harsh treatment.

Originally Posted by Natasy
I think the other person is referencing the patch 6 faces. Which looked like Tav wasn't consenting. Which is problematic, and a lot of people don't want to see them return.

It is problematic that my character is forced to look like they enjoy this treatment that they would not. It is triggering, makes me feel violated, and I have cried many many many times after seeing the new expressions. Among other negative effects. A lot of people have said similar things. Yet I haven't seen anyone pushing Larian to remove the patch 7 expressions. Besides, the AA romance already has problematic elements. One of which I described above. Removing all of the problematic elements would take a rewrite of the romance.

Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
Location: England
Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
This is untrue. Actually, AA coerces the player character to kneel to him by threatening to break up with them otherwise. If you tell him no repeatedly, he just keeps telling you yes and insisting you do it. Until you either give in or break up.
He doesn't "threaten" to break up with the player if you refuse to kneel. He says "yes", but nothing else that comes across as a threat of breaking up. Refusing a second time does end the relationship, but there is no dialogue where you can tell him that you changed your mind. So you can't repeatedly say no and continue the romance.

Joined: Nov 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
Originally Posted by Denis999
What you described just doesn’t seem consensual to me. Tav's "stone face" during kisses with the Ascended Astarion doesn't seem appropriate to me. It can lead to a number of negative interpretations, such as creating a sense of dissociation for Tav. Furthermore, it seems unfair compared to other characters. Currently, Tav has a rather neutral expression during the kissing scenes, even while kneeling, where it conveys restrained pleasure. This is especially noticeable when compared to the mod I've been playing with. The only clear smile appears during the throat grab — and that moment aligns with the script's dynamics. Tav enjoys this interaction, and that atmosphere should be maintained during kisses; otherwise, Astarion simply wouldn't engage in such actions.

I believe that the Ascended Astarion would be well-suited for the standard kiss animation from patch 5, which would match the moment when the player chooses tenderness, and Astarion gently kisses Tav's hand. It would be great if a new animation were added where Tav could kiss his hand — although I'm not really holding my breath for that and will probably have to rely on mods. By the way, a mod for neutral facial expressions has existed for quite some time.


I agree with Denis - "neutral faces" - it would just look like an eomtional barrier, a desocialisation. That's why I'm against any kind of opition.

As opitions for this - are just as much damage to the character and story that was Valentine's Day with fear and questioning Tav's consent and enjoyment.
Larian orignally had an approach to romance and kissing, with Astarion in the path of evil included. It was all about enjoyment and consent when it came to intimacy.

Trigger moments like grabbing the neck are relevant. For this, in the night of the treatment of the Ascended Astarion, there was the opition ‘gently’ - I have no reason why Larian decided to do what they did ignoring the whole atmosphere of romance with the character, taking away choice and enjoyment on Valentine's Day.

An RPG where the player character is this victimised in an intimacy - was never a story Larain wrote, adding such was a rewrite.
That time is over, bless, ruinous to the character and problematic that this even happened.

Trigger moments are solved by adding opition "gently," this is already there for romance with Astarion in the path of evil. Also he kisses Tav not so extravagantly in the new evil ending so I think it's a good solution.

Mutual enjoyment is what was original. This matches the patch 7 animation.

Joined: Sep 2024
?
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
?
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Kurophina
Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
This is untrue. Actually, AA coerces the player character to kneel to him by threatening to break up with them otherwise. If you tell him no repeatedly, he just keeps telling you yes and insisting you do it. Until you either give in or break up.
He doesn't "threaten" to break up with the player if you refuse to kneel. He says "yes", but nothing else that comes across as a threat of breaking up. Refusing a second time does end the relationship, but there is no dialogue where you can tell him that you changed your mind. So you can't repeatedly say no and continue the romance.

AA tells Tav they're "not worthy" if they don't want to become his spawn to continue the relationship. And after they say no to kneeling he says "Yes", then if Tav says no again, he breaks up with them. If Tav says no to kneeling, AA will not accept that for an answer and let Tav continue the relationship. It matches the definition of coercion.

Originally Posted by LiryFire
Mutual enjoyment is what was original. This matches the patch 7 animation.

The original expressions for these kisses were perturbed/unhappy, indicating a lack of mutual enjoyment. Forcing my character to look like they're enjoying these actions, triggers me and does not resolve my trigger moment. It creates it.

Joined: Nov 2023
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
Originally Posted by 🌸Yume🌸
Originally Posted by LiryFire
Mutual enjoyment is what was original. This matches the patch 7 animation.

The original expressions for these kisses were perturbed/unhappy, indicating a lack of mutual enjoyment. Forcing my character to look like they're enjoying these actions, triggers me and does not resolve my trigger moment. It creates it.

Nonsense that this face of fear ever existed in the first place.

Those kisses, the character's reactions to them - were a rewrite of everything.
And the very essence of the romance with Astarion, in the way of evil included.
In the path of evil, he gains freedom and partner, they are both in love.

We have a script.
Which automatically implies Tav's pleasure and consent if they saying "yes" and it was Tav's initiative “come on, let's get rough”.
So canonically, Tav gets high when they're grabbed by the throat and choked.
That's what Larian's attitude toward intimacy with Astarion was.
6 patch “love flies in the air” is that a good fit for what you're talking about, in any way?
Non-consent in kissing on February 14 is a mistake. Larian presented a noncon for Love Day? (contradicting not only the rpg, but the whole story) Yuck.

The Ascended Astarion had an option gentle as well, kissing was common style too, in patch 7 too.
This is the solution I'm suggesting, no one will do the rough in a kiss if the character feels better that way - there's no need to add noncon reactions.

One day a little before February Larian attitude to romances gone insane, and victimized the player character.
They don't like kneeling (if "yes", the script and atmosphere that was worked on indicating consent and enjoyment while Tav is being choked on their knees), don't like face grabbing (kissing with Karlach, 2 act, Karlach liked it), don't like anything in general - all of this happened on Valentine's Day.
There's still no sense making a character's reaction that implies not full consent, optionally too.

Last edited by LiryFire; 27/10/24 11:41 PM.
Joined: Feb 2024
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Feb 2024
Quote
But in and of themselves they are absolutely not.

At least now they’re much more canonical than before.

Quote
Consent under coercion is NOT proper consent.

No, it’s not coercion when you have the option to leave that room without being forced to do anything you don’t want. When he says “no,” it’s still a game. He says it playfully and with a smile; personally, I always choose the “no” option first. When you say “no” a second time, he realizes you’re serious and backs off. Even if he resorts to manipulation, it’s in the form of seducing Tav so that Tav wants to do it on their own. I believe the topic of why he doesn’t agree to continue the relationship without consent to become his spawn, yet agrees at the finale, is a separate discussion. But in the scene of turning into a spawn, no one is forcing you. You have complete freedom to agree or refuse. If you consider his single playful, seductive “no” to be some kind of elaborate coercive tactic, then I have nothing to say to you I find this absurd and a major stretch. It seems you very much want to be coerced in a relationship with Ascended Astarion, but that wasn’t canon until patch 6. In patch 6, Tav kneels, trembling with fear, as if they never had or don't have a choice, which is non-canon.


Quote
Some Tavs might enthusiastically consent to kneeling, but other Tavs may be reluctant. This is a role-play supported in the game options. And there is an element of AA coercing Tav regardless of how enthusiastic they are.

At what point in the transformation scene does Tav do this because they’re scared and feel they have no way out?

Quote
This is not true. It happens to every Tav who asks for a kiss, whether or not they asked AA to be gentle or harsh in the past. And asking for a kiss is NOT the same thing as asking for harsh treatment.

I already mentioned that the kisses are a looped animation. It’s a gameplay convention. And a gameplay convention cannot be a reason to introduce out-of-character behavior for someone who, when Tav was given a choice, did not act with unsolicited harshness, like grabbing them by the throat, unless it was something Tav specifically asked for. What was initiated by my character was turned into an act of violence in patch 6, when in the original script it was stated that both characters enjoyed it. And the very fact that Tav chose this and showed initiative made that clear. So you can’t use gameplay conventions to push your narrative under the guise of “freedom of role-playing choices.” The kisses in patch 7 are canon, aligning with the script and original intent. They could expand role-play options by adding the standard kisses from patch 5 for AA, but not by bringing back fear expressions. Don’t make me repeat myself.

Quote
The original expressions for these kisses were perturbed/unhappy, indicating a lack of mutual enjoyment.

What was done six months later, contradicting the original script and replacing other kisses, cannot be considered original.

Quote
Forcing my character to look like they're enjoying these actions, triggers me and does not resolve my trigger moment. It creates it.

I can say the same about when my favorite character is rewritten to fit someone else's desired narrative, destroying the character as I’ve known them from the beginning. Larian, don’t kill the character for whom I bought this game.

Last edited by Denis999; 28/10/24 06:21 AM.
Joined: Sep 2024
P
stranger
Offline
stranger
P
Joined: Sep 2024
Originally Posted by Denis999
What was done six months later, contradicting the original script and replacing other kisses, cannot be considered original.

So what was added 6 months later is not original but what was added over a year later is? How does that make sense? There are plenty of people who liked patch 6 because it aligned with their view and RP. Why do you insist on taking this away from them when they play with spawn Tav? Nobody wants to take the smiling faces away from you, but why do you not want the same for others?

Quote
I can say the same about when my favorite character is rewritten to fit someone else's desired narrative, destroying the character as I’ve known them from the beginning. Larian, don’t kill the character for whom I bought this game.

Exactly the point. With patch 7 many people also feel like larian rewrote the narrative that doesn’t align with their view anymore. Why is it okay to rewrite him to fit your narrative but not others when the character is already so complex it makes sense that his character can be viewed from many perspectives? If you bought the game for Astarion and didn’t like him before patch 7, may I ask why you continued to play? Obviously it didn’t fit your narrative. Honestly I find it rather insulting that you view this incredible game as nothing more than an Astarion dating sim. I could be wrong of course.

Joined: Jul 2022
Community Manager
Offline
Community Manager
Joined: Jul 2022
Closing this thread for repeated disregard of the rules and the moderation requests.

Please bear in mind that the moderation team has repeatedly requested that anyone participating in the discussion remain civil and respectful of all posters and that conversation stick to the topic of the post (interactions and mechanics surrounding a Tav that has made specific decisions during Act 3).

I would also like to remind everyone of the following forum rules:

- Be respectful towards all forum members.
- Please avoid engaging in sensitive topics such as religious and political discussions.
- Remain constructive and respectful of others' opinions and gameplay styles.
- Do not target any forum member, including the Development, Community, and Moderator teams, with harassment, abuse, threats, or toxicity. This extends to previous forum members, moderators, and ex-employees.
- If a Moderator has asked users to drop a topic, please do not double down or continue discussing it.

Healthy discussion is absolutely encouraged on these forums. However, due to several recent threads that have escalated into rule-breaking and the inability to follow our moderation team's requests, additional levels of moderation are being introduced.

For the time being, the Moderator Team have been asked to close any new discussions or debates involving Astarion's character ending (Ascension vs. Non-Ascension). This measure will remain in place for the foreseeable and will be re-evaluated at a later date. Discussing the character and the general narratives surrounding him is acceptable as long as the discussion remains civil and respectful of all forum members.

Please remember that this is a public space that facilitates discussion where you may see opinions that oppose your own. Should any conversation fail to remain respectful, moderation action may be taken. To read the full Forums rules, please click here: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=boardrules&v=1

Thank you all for your understanding.

Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5