Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

I strongly disagree with the statement that the same approvals don't make sense — they definitely make sense to me. And not just for me. As Neil said, Ascended Astarion and Spawn are only different in circumstance and level of power. They are the same person, not two different ones. Ascended Astarion is not the ‘evil twin’ of the spawn. Lord did not become a soulless monster, and the spawn remains neutrally evil because it is part of his vampiric nature, not to mention his inherent personality traits.

When Stephen Rooney was asked what qualities Astarion should have to "still be him," he replied: "He has a certain appreciation for violence, I guess? A bit of a murdery streak." "He’s a vampire, he’s all about blood, and he’s all about, kind of, those darker sides of humanity." "He’s gonna stab you with a smile on his face? Well, I guess so. That’s kind of him in a nutshell. And he might apologize for it afterwards, depending on how the conversation goes. Yeah, maybe." "He’s a bit terrible consistently throughout the game; he’s awful in a whole lot of ways." Even in the good ending, when he kills the "right" people, he does it not out of moral considerations, but because it is beneficial for him in the given circumstances.

Moreover, it’s been discussed many times on the forum how problematic it is to drastically change a character long after the game’s release, when players have already formed certain perceptions. Making such changes a year after release is too much. Essentially, with every patch, we would get a different character with this approach.

The Ascended Astarion and the spawn react differently to the affair with Mizora or the evil ending, and that makes sense in my opinion. The spawn rejected power, so when Tav or the Dark Urge choose power, it feels like a betrayal to him — you convinced him to give up power, and then you took it yourself, nullifying the climax of his good path.

Ascended, on the other hand, reacts calmly to Tav's affair with Mizora because, as in the case of Halsin, he is confident in his relationship: "You are mine. No one can change that."

The spawn, however, is more insecure about the relationship, more vulnerable. In the finale, he asks twice if Tav really wants to continue their relationship. This shows that he is in a state of uncertainty throughout the game, unlike the Ascended version of himself.

I don’t see this as a mistake. I’m not against adding new content to the game, but I am against replacing existing elements that many consider canon. The same thing happened with Ascended’s kisses — the dynamic suddenly changed six months later, which is not normal.

Eh, I definitely think the approval regarding Aylin doesn't make sense- It directly contradicts what he says, and I really don't think Spawn is trying to pander to the player with his statement(s) there or anything like that, and at that point he has proven empathy for people in similar situations like his comments after Karlach kills Gortash. (And, in all fairness- AA has exactly the same thing to say there, the only difference in dialogue is in the aftermath if you side with Aylin.)

I don't exactly remember the Durge one mentioned earlier by I believe jessie, but it also sounds weird.

That being said- this is not the hugest of issues to me. It's pretty easy for me to ignore, when the text itself seems to go against it and I'm aware the act 3 approvals seem kind of rushed. (And approval mistakes do happen- I've seen people praise Act 1's approvals as being watertight but in EA I remember some approvals being changed to the opposite thing sometimes after a patch, and I never knew if it was originally an accident, a bug, or if they just chose to change it)

That's what makes it muddy to me. If AA didn't say the same thing I'd wonder if the approval in that instance was a bug. But since it's identical, to me it comes off as something to roleplay with. Of course that's just my opinion.

Ultimately just from my perspective it's not something thats world/game breaking. There are a lot of different ways I could think to roleplay with it. But I also like things that make me do a double take at a character and wonder more about them. To me, that's fun.

@Natasy I wouldn't say it's a bug, but rather, maybe poorly thought out, in the vein of a few other approvals across that act (doesn't only apply to him). It'd also be possible to argue that that approval contradicts what AA says, but I do think both AA and pre-ritual Spawn are fixated on power so it's not asking a lot of me to see it as possible. With Spawn I do believe he has started deconstructing his relationship with power, and even if that's not the case, what Lorroakan offers isn't particularly enticing (I mean, I guess money can be power, but even then we can make an argument for AA's approval being weird too- what does he need 5k for now?) or benefits him all that greatly for me not to think he wouldn't lean towards his understanding of Aylin's predicament.

This conversation reminded me of something that stuck out to me in EA, that being that he approved of helping (the then non-recruitable placeholder model with a different voice actress) Karlach, which was unexpected of him. People talked a bit about why that could be. I guess it's because she was in a similar situation and also happens to not be a gnome.

EDIT: Come to think of it, it could've been a similar situation in that it was a power vs compassion for those in similar circumstances kind of thing. I can't remember if the paladins of Tyr offered you anything back then, and can't be arsed to check. They had a different story they would tell you, I remember that.

Why would you decide that? This is the first time I've heard of a player judging a character solely on their approvals, of course, I don't rule out that this is also possible, but as a rule, there are a lot of other, more important criteria, thanks to which the player forms his attitude to this or that character. By the way, as a rule of thumb, in act 3 approval and so already 100. It would make sense, perhaps, to allow the player to gain approval above 100, so that you don't have to “postpone” situations in which you can get “extra” approval, so that you can get back the “beautiful 100” later if necessary.


There is no healing in Spawn's path. It's not in the game. The only option for healing the suffering associated with vampirism that is in the game is the Ritual of Ascension. Failure to perform the ritual is a poorly performed quest by Astarion, which carries legitimately bad consequences for Astarion. Completing Astarion's quest by choosing to abandon the ritual may look good for a “good” walkthrough or it may fit the player's worldview and desires, Astarion does not become anyone from this, Astarion remains at the same zero coordinate point he was at the beginning of his journey, of course, having gained experience and knowledge over the past adventure, he remains a spawn. After Ascension, Astarion becomes something - an Ascended vampire. This gives him great powers, but doesn't make him a “terrible” person.


Totally agree. It's one character, it's one person who either got the Ascension or got nothing. It's not two twin brothers.


The full quote goes like this:

“About Astarion, um, about him as a character, or about the experience of the character, or, sure, I just love the fact that his incessant drive and desire to be utterly and free for unshackled by other people's opinions of it, uh, still with the capacity of being able to be a friend, or fall in love, or be a terrible-terrible person.”



(18:38)

Neil said “terrible-terrible person” as a joke. This has nothing to do with Astarion's Ascension. There is no hint in Neil's words that the Ascension is what makes Astarion “terrible”, or even more so that Astarion is magically torn in two, like one is friendly and loving and the other is “terrible”. Also Neil said of him, “desire to be utterly and unshackled by other people's opinions of him”. Literally from the first meeting with him, Astarion begins to periodically show his flamboyant character, regardless of other people's opinions of him. And after the Ascension, he throws off all the masks and finally frees himself from any dependence on other people's opinions of him.


That's a very accurate description.


Neil compared UA to “theater.” “Theatricality” is also ‘performance’, a kind of play, masks. If not a lie, then at least a concealment of one's true self.

https://www.tumblr.com/yo-yoringle/741172577018494976/test


About this disapproval, I completely agree, it's inappropriate whether Astarion performed the ritual or not. What we really see here is a variant in which the character's approval is not appropriate to the character or the situation, but is done in an evil-alignment-evil-disapproval fashion. This is a more blatant mismatch here than in the case of Night Song.


I agree. In the case of Mizora, Tav indoctrinated Astarion with the ideas of “not being selfish”, forced him to give up his dream, and he himself acted selfishly and nastily and showed a rather unsavory side. Of course, Astarion will be hurt by this and angry at Tav, realizing that their motives were not sincere at all. Capturing the Brain is the same way. Tav prevents Astarion from gaining power, while taking everything himself, against all his previous “ideals”. How else can one react to that? It's really a betrayal. About UA's insecurity in the relationship - very true. In addition, if Tav takes control of Brain, it puts UA in a dependent, vulnerable position relative to the powerful Tav, who had previously prevented Astarion himself from gaining power.


I can assume that Astarion may view Lorroakan as a potential ally in the coming battle or may not want to risk for Night Song, many of Astarion's “evil” disapproval is due to his caution and unwillingness to take unnecessary risks for the sake of others. UA and AA have different capabilities, AA has more, and while the motivation for UA's disapproval may be precisely caution, AA may see Lorroakan as a useful piece on the board of his coming intrigue (not for the sake of the 5k specifically now, but for the possible benefit of using that familiarity in the future). But this approval does contradict his lines, so that's a bit odd. But in my opinion, it's still a far less glaring inconsistency than in the case of his disapproval of Tav's desire to reject Bhaal's influence.

Though on the subject of caution - there's this weird endorsement of Astarion in Act 1. When you take Lathander's mace “foolishly”, just grabbing it without going through the puzzle, which clearly looks like a careless and reckless act, Astarion approves it, and then he himself suffers from the consequences of your act and yells at you emotionally after resurrection. Why he yells is more than understandable, why he approves of the deed itself is the question. This approval prevents me from doing the “Astarion approves” walkthrough by going through the game entirely on Astarion's approval, because I don't want Astarion taking terrible radiant damage because of that mace. Clearly, these are completely unimportant little things, but this approval is also pretty odd given Astarion's caution in other situations.

To be honest, I don't consider approval/disapproval as something super significant, they matter in Act 1 when you want to establish a warmer relationship with Astarion faster and start a romance with him sooner, but afterwards 100 quietly builds up by itself without any special efforts and is maintained solely “for the sake of beauty”, in Act 3 it doesn't affect your relationship or the plot of the game, it doesn't affect anything at all. But I am very glad that Larian didn't cut Astarion like a pie, “in two parts” and create two twins, “good” and “evil”, out of one person. That would be a rather primitive, “childish” scripting move, simplifying Astarion's story to the level of a fantasy written by a schoolboy. Of course, Larian could generally still work on the character's approvals to make them more in line with his character and situation rather than trivial alignment, but first of all, Stephen Rooney doesn't work for Larian anymore, and there's no one to do that, and without the character's author it's best not to touch that at all. Secondly, Larian are generally unlikely to be doing this sort of thing now that they've pretty much finished the game.

Hm, to me, it makes me think of his approvals for Sovereign Glut in act 1/2. Astarion approves regardless of player choice. He seems to approve of overall...subversion of expectations? Or treachery and chaos. That interaction was sort of pivotal for me in understanding what he approves of. And imo I see it reflected in the act 3 Nighstong choice. It's interesting to see his approval in terms of power there. It never struck me as a commentary on his relationship with power. But only because I never saw betraying the Nightsong as something that would offer a tactical advantage in that way. The reward offered is gold. Which just feels...idk measly to me? Especially at that point in the game. So I personally wouldn't equate that with a conversation about power. Astarions approval there comes across as sort of "lol I can't believe you just did that, how fun." I am curious if my read can coincide with the read he has a morphing relationship with power, though. Is it possible for him to shift in that way, while also maintaining his enjoyment of subversion and chaos, even at the expense of others? I do wonder.

The Karlach thing would be interesting to discuss. The paladin of Tyr to memory doesn't offer you anything until after, if you side with them. My assumption for Astarion's approval was simply that it was pro-killing, and going back on a deal. Subversion and treachery and all. Maybe even seeing her as a powerful ally to protect him. Still, I'm sure there are a lot of different ways to roleplay that. I'm a bit cynical and would be hard-pressed to say it was due to compassion. But that's just me.

I think that a powerful wizard, moreover, as greedy and evil as Lorroakan, may well be seen by Astarion as one of those figures that he can use in the future, in his plans to seize power over the city. The fact that Rolan (a generally familiar character who owes us a debt, and that could also be considered a useful connection) will become master of the tower after Lorroakan's death is unknown to Astarion at this point. So we're removing a possible useful ally for the sake of the Night Song, which will definitely not benefit Lord Astarion. If this were DnD and we could have a dialog with Astarion, we could hint to him about the chaos and a good opportunity to loot the tower and take Lorroakan's artifacts after killing him, then maybe he would change his disapproval to the opposite reaction. About the insignificance of gold - I also find it a bit petty that Ascended Astarion gives disapproval for giving to beggars, he has enough gold to not grumble about such little things and let his consort have fun that way, of course he wouldn't approve of it either, but I think he would have more of an indifferent, neutral reaction.


I think in this situation, Astarion approves of helping Karlach because she's called an “evil” that needs to be killed. And a paladin of Tyr is doing it. The same paladin could say the same thing about Astarion. Astarion may feel sympathy for Karlach, who finds himself in the same situation of an outcast being hunted as he is. Astarion may also approve of Tav's decision because it shows how the leader of the group treats the statements of the paladins, doesn't take them on faith, looks into the situation on his own, and takes the side of the one, whom the paladin has declared “evil”. Such a Tav would rather support Astarion himself in a similar situation.

With Astarion and his approval, you shouldn't forget that he sees a lot of things simply as entertainment. It doesn't have to serve any purpose other than to entertain him. If the deed also provides additional gold and/or power, all the better. He is a voyeur, if he can watch others being cruel from a safe distance, he totally approves of it. If you torture Liam as Dark Urge, he gives his consent several times, he agrees to let Auntie Ethel escape with Vanya in act 3, etc.

As Astarion says "To hell with them all", he simply doesn't care about them.

Karlach is a Tiefling and he thinks that Tieflings are devils.

I think we can keep discussing that over DMs, if you'd like, to keep from derailing (although I'm visiting the forums a bit less these days, so I might not reply quickly). I do think it can coincide without issues, IMO. I do disagree that, at least in Spawn's case, it'd be something he approves of for the fun of it. Maybe it's just vibes-based, and this isn't the strongest argument- but in act 2 I remember how he wanted to kill the surgeon Thorm for reminding him of Cazador in his tortures (although I'm wary of some lines that are clearly put there to instruct the player in some way- while these are technically canon I feel like lines like him warning the player about accidentally killing the child in the Hag's belly aren't there out of real character writing but out of a need to have someone warn the player about a mechanic, so I'm less keen on considering them for my characterisation of him. I suppose this isn't really the case for that Thorm, though?)

The issue with EA Karlach is that it was long ago and I don't have the greatest memory (although it is better, when it comes to remembering stuff from this game). I remember people discussing it, and seeing it as an example of him empathising, for once. So at least I don't think it was a too out there interpretation. I do think Astarion has the potential for compassion, even if it's kind of buried, and he only knows how to apply it if he relates to it really hard, which is overall not a great demonstration of compassion, all in all.

This is a really good and I actually agree. I could see his approval here being a safety thing for him. Seeing that the leader of the group will not jump at the chance to "kill because evil", I imagine would make him feel safer. Especially knowing he is hunted by monster hunters himself. Could be a sigh of relief for him in the moment.

@jinetemoranco sounds good. I think it's worth a discussion but acknowledge it's off topic for the thread.

Your all too regular reminder that it is a forum rule to respect others' game narratives and character preferences. It should be perfectly possible to make the positive case for character choices that lead to Astarion's ascension without taking digs at player choices that lead a different route. Both are perfectly valid, so please let's try not to antagonise each other by implying differently. Or indeed derail the thread by so doing, as why Astarion ascends or not is only potentially very tangentially related to the thread topic so if you're going to do that.

I'm not going to call out a specific user or quote, though hopefully the person whose post prompted this intervention knows who they are. But it can't hurt for everyone to be careful, though I do think most people are being constructive here.

I think everyone's points are valid! but I also like to say that I don't find him siding with Lorroakan even if he is AA fits him as well. Like what Marielle said about the dark urge line, I think him siding with him Lorroakan is just for the sake of him being evil. But that's my opinion:).

There are a lot of instances Astarion does find empathy for those who suffered in his similar plight (except for the gnomes lol) & to be totally honest if the whole thing was about power I would think Astarion would much rather side with a child of a goddess then a measly wizard. Perhaps with the wizard he could use power over in the future but as he said before "We pissed off enough gods already" I don't think he'd want to piss anymore off lol.

To be honest for it to be totally in character for him I think approval should be for both ways like he's done in the past like with Glut, in this instance he is prob more like "lol whatever happens idc as long as theres killing involved" or something like that lol.


I agree with this it could be bugged?? But also this isn't breaking & I can just go do something afterwards that will bring him back to 100. Really the only disapproval that does bother me is the dark urge one.

I think this is a good explanation for just the approval Astarion gives in Lathander's temple if you grab the mace in a reckless way. Perhaps it amuses him at that moment, and he's interested to see what happens.


Astarion's potential for compassion is well revealed in his relationship with the DU, he sympathizes with the DU and understands them far more than anyone else (I'm sure it would be the same with Tav, it's just that Tav doesn't have any particular problems in the game and there's nothing to be compassionate about). As for the companions, he has compassion for Karlach in Act 3, regrets Gale's death if he explodes in the finale, gives disapproval for cruel choices towards other companions (unfortunately, I've rarely made such choices except for Jaheira's handing over to Sarevok, so I can't give enough examples, but I think other instances can be found as well). Astarion also approves of defending other companions, such as Tav's aggressive retort towards Mizora, with the clear intention of attacking her, when she first shows up at the camp and torments Wyll (though he may also approve of showing strength of character here). He approves of rescuing Minthara in Moonrise Towers and when you invite her to camp after the rescue. He approves helping Shadowheart with the trials in Gauntlet of Shar. He sympathizes with the hyena being tormented by the goblin at the beginning of Act 2 (approval for helping the hyena and approval for killing the goblin). He sympathizes with animals (two approvals for being nice to His Majesty's cat). Astarion also gives approval when you feed a baby owlbear and approval when you pet the little one after he has a nightmare. He approves of helping Yenna (the orphan girl in Act 3), though he grumbles afterward when she comes to your camp. Also your example of Malus Thorm. He approves of helping the spirit of the cursed monk (with the amulet). He approves when you extract the child alive from Ethel's belly.


By the way, Astarion doesn't like gods and he has his reasons (“I tried them all. None of them answered.”). He doesn't approve if you donate money to the gods in the temple. But, in general, Lorroakan's endorsement, yes, looks more like the standard “evil” approval, you can try to determine the motive, but it's largely more of a fantasy, besides, Astarion isn't much of a planner (you can see this if you ask him about his plans, “And how are we going to do that?” when he suggests you lead the Absolute cult in the future). Approval in both cases would really suit his character better.

I agree with this. This moment seems like a mismatch to the total character of Astarion, regardless of path. I personally wouldn't agree it constitutes a separation of approval between the ascension decision. I don't see Astarion approving of this for a wide variety of reasons.


Double this! Marielle has a point on how to role-play it still landing him with power. But off the bat, the entire thing feels so...weirdly pointless imo? Like, a major thing, that bore very little weight in the story. For no real reason. There was no lead up, or story rich relevancy to the situation. It didn't fit well at all imo. So it's less of an approval discrepancy here and more of a just...weird writing in general moment for me.

Both of these are certainly weird, but I don't think it requires an entire rework of the approval system for Astarion. These could be changed for both imo.

I agree with Natasy! I think changing just two disapproval to approvals is all that needs to be done with Astarion's approvals. It would be a nice improvement that wouldn't require any special cost or labor, just make the game more realistic.

One of my issues with splitting his character approval/disapproval based on his two paths is taking into account that the pre-ritual Spawn and post-ritual Spawn won't be "exactly" the same in regards to their views on power. Spawn only rejects power post-ritual when he stays on that path. So I think if you wanted different approvals/disapprovals to reflect the change in his character after his quest, what about the Astarion before his quest conclusion?

I also think with Shadowheart, it's much easier to have the approval/disapproval systems to be split since Shadowheart will already be set on either her Selune or Shar path at the END of act 2. So once you enter act 3, she's already on one of her two paths.

TBF, through the system that was shown earlier for SH, it would be possible to flag certain approvals as only for post-ritual Astarion. To separate the character they tend to use two flags: BecameVampireLord (or something like that) or StayedVampireSpawn. If the latter is marked as false, it means he either never killed Cazador or that he did but ascended, it can be either.

For example: in the endgame, throughout most of his banter, they will check BecameVampireLord, so pre-ritual and post-ritual Spawn have the same things to say. However, during the final choice to conquer the brain or not, the game will instead check whether or not he chose to stay a Spawn, so pre-ritual Spawn and Ascended Astarion have the same thing to say.

Yeah, I just think if you're going to make alterations to his approvals based on his character paths, you can't just look at it from "Spawn vs Ascendant", it'd probably make more sense for pre-ritual Spawn to have the same approval/disapprovals with the Ascendant Astarion, not stayed-spawn Astarion.

I do think the stayed-spawn Astarion changes in terms of his goals (he's no longer seeking power like he was before). However, I don't think he's suddenly a changed person overnight, I think it's going to take time for him to grow into the Astarion you see at the epilogue for example. So I don't think a huge overhaul on the approval system is necessary to show the differences, maybe a few adjustments at the most.

I think that makes sense! IMO it depends on the situation that Pre-ritual Spawn is going to be most like AA or Spawn. For example, for Mizora, they chose to have both versions of Spawn have the same reaction and that feels right to me. For the "conquer the brain" dialogue, it makes more sense to me that Pre-Ritual Spawn reacts like AA.

It really looks like they didn't pay too much attention to what they were doing with pre-Ritual Astarion in the evil endings. In the Durge evil ending he is only okay with it if he is Ascended, while in Tav's evil ending he is okay with it as AA and pre-ritual.
Also, the same contradictions like with Aylin are all over the place in his approvals (and not only his), like, for example, Orin killing her victim (which he voiced he wanted to save, especially when it's Yenna) or approving of Durge accepting Bhaal. Astarion voices out loud that we can't trust Gortash to share power, why he approves of sharing it with him suddenly?
Unfortunately, for Act 3 approval system to make sense, it needs to get a proper revision. It's a complete and utter mess, even if you don't account for Astarion's different paths at all.
But especially after Spawn in post-Mizora scene saying he was selfish and he is trying to be better? His most vile approvals became just straight up unbelievable and nonsensical for me. He NEVER acts evil as Spawn in Act 3. He straight up becomes a hero in his Spawn epilogue and even worries about gnomes potentially getting killed without him overlooking other spawns, so it's canon he doesn't kill innocents (also confirmed by Gurs and other different good characters like Minsc, Karlach, Wyll and Jaheira) and he doesn't want to bring any suffering to innocents, even when it's not him, but other spawns. Such person can't have any approvals for killing innocents.
So, Larian, please, be consistent. These scenes is your doing and your message.

This thread is for his BOTH paths, as you can see in the title. It's not solely about Spawn.

And honestly, I'm tired of folks here attacking me with this "fake AA fan" accusation. This forum definitely isn't welcoming to any fans who think that Ascended Astarion is evil and who love him for that. Even though Larian straight up confirmed him being evil themselves.
I want to see Larian's writing of both paths being represented in Act 3 approvals and I'm not gonna feel ashamed of that, no matter what you say.

It doesn't need to be that much complicated. I'm not saying we need to completely change his character in his approvals. Just assign the most evil and vile ones to AA only. Because it makes no sense that Spawn Astarion first approves of Tav saying they want to take over the Absoulte and then we get that evil Tav ending where they need to enthrall Spawn because otherwise he isn't okay with them dominating the Brain: "So you chose this... Over your friends, over Baldur's Gate, over us... You chose THIS".
Also, some evil ones need to be eliminated entirely, because it completely contradicts his dialogue, like when he wants to warn Aylin about Lorroakan. He and Minthara share this nonsensical thing where they voice their support to Aylin and then suddenly approve of Tav betraying Aylin. It feels like people who assigned a lot of Act 3 approvals didn't even read the script: "Let's see, who are evil companions? Oh, Minthara and Astarion! They would approve of any evil choice!"

I'm not saying he is an angel and I don't want to see him as one in his Spawn path, but I've already named a ton of evidence that his Spawn path is his redemption path. I'm not gonna repeat myself or other good characters who think so.
If you don't interpret it this way, it's fine, but his new after-Mizora scene and the new Tav/Durge evil endings cemented to me that Spawn is his redemption path and he is definitely isn't supposed to be as evil as AA. Otherwise I see no point in these two different paths, if he is the same evil in them, and honestly, I don't believe it was Larian's intention, which was, again, confimed by them and their datamined files directly. Larian saying that refusing the ritual brings no change to him would be a terrible message, like saying victims of torture and sexual abuse like him are irredeemable and can't become a better person no matter what they do, so I really don't believe Larian would ever suggest such a thing.
The only thing still telling Spawn is evil is ONLY this messed up approvals system and this is saying a lot about it.
Also, thank you very much for proving my point.