Every other rpg I played only gathered the audience of either from RPG fans, RPG veterans, old-school gamers, etc.
But baldurs gate 3 managed to interested not only rpg players but also people who normally do not play RPGs.
Same as World of Warcraft who managed to garner interest from people who are not MMO players.
I played wow with people who are into video whatsoever. They only played wow because their kid played wow. I met girls in wow who only played wow because their boyfriend played it. And so on.
BG3 is kinda similar, it somehow managed to convince casual gamers to try this game and stick with it. RPGs and casual gamers usually do not work well usually.
One time I saw a Twitch streamer who bought bg3 and refunded it just because she learned it is turn-based game. The inclination to buy it was there.
What caused this game to go mainstream?
I cannot categorize myself since I am kinda mix of everything. I am filthy casual because I do not care about score, achievements, etc. I am rpg gamer since I love those types of games. I played RPGs because they usually offer the best price to time spent investment. The same goes for MMOs, I enjoy them because I create a character who is always evolving.
As a rpg player bg3 doesn't tick the right boxes. The kingmaker: wrath of the righteous does.
Bg3 offers dumbed down dnd ruleset aka dnd 5e combat dnd 3e or 3.5e.
It is turn-based compared to rtwp. I tried D:OS 2, solasta, wasteland 2&3, XCOM enemy unknown, XCOM2. Neither of them grabbed me. I tried giving these games a shot. I own all of them.
People who love nwn and dnd 3.0 are playing nwn ee or nwn diamond and their multiplayer servers. People who love rtwp are playing Wotr, tyranny. People who love wh40k are playing rogue trader.
Those games never garner large appeal that this game have, I spend countless hours watching youtube videos, reading twitter, etc., to find THE thing that gave it mainstream appeal but I cannot find it.
Maybe I am missing something. I really want to discover the thing gave it mass market appeal.
Thanks for the info,
Cheers
Live or die as long is battle is worthy and honor is gained.
Simple Larian prioritized making it fun and entertaining, and they were brilliant at marketing those aspects. They also created characters and storylines that people cared about.
It's a similar thing how Dragon Age: Origins made waves, Morrigan being sexy (Also apparently Alistair) draws in the general population.
Add a dash of simplicity (DA:O did this via Warrior and Rogue classes being 90% "I auto attack the bad guy") through watered down 5e ruleset and you don't drive off the players who aren't interested in hardcore RPG's.
Originally Posted by Radamenes
It is turn-based compared to rtwp.
Personally, that's a benefit for me. I abhor RTWP as it often feels like it just combines all the worst aspects of TB and RT into one awful system.
Simple Larian prioritized making it fun and entertaining, and they were brilliant at marketing those aspects. They also created characters and storylines that people cared about.
Fun and entertainment is rather a broad term. It means different things to different people. Characters, storylines, etc., yes they are important but mostly RPGs audience, mostly.
A lot of people play world of warcraft do not know anything about the lore and characters involved in it.
I learned about bg3 from a channel that makes info about general gaming news.
I am more interested why people who are not normally interested in playing RPGs decided to pick this game.
Originally Posted by Taril
Marketing and sexy companions.
It's a similar thing how Dragon Age: Origins made waves, Morrigan being sexy (Also apparently Alistair) draws in the general population.
Add a dash of simplicity (DA:O did this via Warrior and Rogue classes being 90% "I auto attack the bad guy") through watered down 5e ruleset and you don't drive off the players who aren't interested in hardcore RPG's.
Originally Posted by Radamenes
It is turn-based compared to rtwp.
Personally, that's a benefit for me. I abhor RTWP as it often feels like it just combines all the worst aspects of TB and RT into one awful system.
DAO was far more simpler when it comes to games mechanics then bg3 or any dnd is.
I doubt it matters to general populous if the game has turn-based or rtwp system. You not liking rtwp is your prerogative, same as me not liking turn-based combat.
Something about this game caused to appeal to non-rpg minded gamer. At the start you hinted that the popularity of dao was Morrigan and Allister.
When I look on bg3 companions none of them provoke the same feeling as allister or Morrigan from dao. Maybe I just loved Claudia Black performance in Stargate.
Live or die as long is battle is worthy and honor is gained.
Ooh. Interesting question. Certainly hype is a major factor. It just snowballs. When everyone is talking about a thing, more people want to see what the fuss is all about.
The resurgence of D&D popularity probably helped a lot. (Thank you, Stranger Things).
You call 5E “dumbed down”, and maybe it is by tabletop standards. But by video game standards, incorporating all they did (with a little tweaking) and the way they did it is very far from dumb.
Other games might have pulled off similar levels of complexity, but not usually with all the high quality voiced cinematic dialogue and cut scenes.
The trend for AAA games has been making everything more and more accessible for ages. Larian didn’t strip it down to the bare minimum, they included as much as they could. The game doesn’t hold your hand much by telling you where to go and what to do. It rewards you for finding clever ways to approach things, and sometimes it rewards you for trying something really stupid just to see what happens.
It’s not a perfect game. I can think of some things I think they could have done better, but it’s a game that respects the player for figuring out how it works. And they’ve shown that there is actually a big market for that. I hope other developers will get the message.
Or maybe that’s all bollox, and it’s just because there’s sex.
DAO was far more simpler when it comes to games mechanics then bg3 or any dnd is.
I don't dispute that.
But being simple tends to help non-RPG fans stick with a game. So, once they get into the game for whatever reason (Such as, because of sexy characters) they stay around because it's not overwhelmingly complex to actually play the game.
Originally Posted by Radamenes
I doubt it matters to general populous if the game has turn-based or rtwp system. You not liking rtwp is your prerogative, same as me not liking turn-based combat.
For the most part, no (Though TB can help some people because it gives you more time to think through your actions which provides a buffer for learning RPG mechanics)
My comment about that was more interjecting my opinion about that particular facet than it being a reasoning for BG3's popularity.
Originally Posted by Radamenes
Something about this game caused to appeal to non-rpg minded gamer. At the start you hinted that the popularity of dao was Morrigan and Allister.
When I look on bg3 companions none of them provoke the same feeling as allister or Morrigan from dao. Maybe I just loved Claudia Black performance in Stargate.
Companions generally seem to be a key factor in an RPG's popularity with the masses. In DAO it was Morrigan and Alistair. In ME it was Miranda (With Tali and Garrus coming in big once people played ME2). In BG3 it's Shadowheart, Karlach and Astarion.
It's interesting to note that DA2 and DAI which featured less sexy companions also had less mass appeal (Also, the upcoming Veilguard is not getting much love and its characters are being memed about for how awful they look)
There is definitely a trend with modern RPG's that have more detailed character models and thus sexy characters being more mass marketable than CRPG's that usually have less detailed character models and PNG portraits.
On a side note, if you liked Claudia Black's performance in Stargate, you should definitely check out Farscape if you haven't already. Her performance in that was amazing (Also, Ben Browder's performance was also top notch there too)
Honestly I dont get why theres always these D&D players around that dizz the latest iteration of D&D.
Thats was already the case when AD&D was the previous system and D&D3 came around.
And now people act as if D&D3 is the good system and D&D5 is somehow "bad".
(D&D4 was really bad, as in it wasnt actually D&D, but thats another topic; and by the way 3.5 was basically 3.0 with only very minor changes and not even good changes)
No D&D5 is still not perfect. But it solved a lot of problems that D&D3 had.
Just an example, D&D had from version 1 to 3 always the problem that attack rates would get up and up, while armor improved much less.
In BG2 you would in the end absolutely not care anymore what your AC is. Unless you would manage to build very special characters, opponents would hit you all the time anyway. Only countermeasure was to have Improved Speed so you would kill opponents quickly, and to have Regeneration so you would heal enormously every round.
Or in "Star Wars: Knights in the Old Republic", which was based on d20, which was a simplified version of D&D3 that didnt require to pay Wizards of the Coast to use, I just gave up trying to build up defenses - even if you went all in on defenses, you still would get hit all the time anyway. Instead I went for maximum offense, combined with crowd control where that was possible, and found this much stronger.
D&D5 finally fixed that. Now you only improve your attacks with the proficiency bonus, which starts at 2 and increases by 1 every four level after the first.
All in all D&D5 is easier and more elegant, just like D&D3 was easier and more elegant than AD&D. Except the step from AD&D to D&D3 was a lot bigger.
So yeah, D&D5 is great. Its also the most successful version of D&D ever. They did something right there.
Why BG3 was so successful well I'll have to list a lot to fully explain but bottom line, its a passion project. For example I saw a statistic that only 3% of Steam players actually finished the ironman mode. And yet the game has one. The game is full of details, great storylines, etc. And they are only expanding on this now.
I think it is less about “the thing” BG3 or Larian did, but variety of smaller bits that made the game attractive to a variety of potential players. Mass appeal titles have less to do with being exceptional, and more with offering something to more demographics.
Using well respected IP D&D game Making a big budget RPG during an AAA RPG drought Characters (with them I take issues as far as long term storytelling) but are very evocative and compelling on surface level Game mechanics and story situations fitting nicely for social media A lot of good will from EA, good buzz. Game that can be played solo, and in multiplayer, promising scone magic story driven experience and interactive sandbox.
IMO the most important thing that BG3 did was high quality motion capture and very good voice acting. Larian did other things well too, but its the unprecedented scale of the fully voice acted script and the acting that really sells it. I say this even though I actually prefer games that are not voice acted.
The hype for the game only really started with the presentation of that scene floodes tiktok. Before that only rpg gamer were really interested because of the ip.
And Larian kept the hype going by focusing on the sexual content in marketing, making it seem more explicit than it was, and designing the companion to be thirst traps, more like characters in a visual novel, than a rpg. And Larian then reworked the game so that you can experience everything in one playthrough.
And the simplicity and full voiceover also helped. You could read a lot of variations of "After BG3 I tried out <other rpg>, but its so much reading/math/complicated so I stopped playing."
Its quite interesting how full vo made PoE2 into a failure but helped BG3 immensely because of the different target groups.
Companions generally seem to be a key factor in an RPG's popularity with the masses. In DAO it was Morrigan and Alistair. In ME it was Miranda (With Tali and Garrus coming in big once people played ME2). In BG3 it's Shadowheart, Karlach and Astarion.
It's interesting to note that DA2 and DAI which featured less sexy companions also had less mass appeal (Also, the upcoming Veilguard is not getting much love and its characters are being memed about for how awful they look)
There is definitely a trend with modern RPG's that have more detailed character models and thus sexy characters being more mass marketable than CRPG's that usually have less detailed character models and PNG portraits.
On a side note, if you liked Claudia Black's performance in Stargate, you should definitely check out Farscape if you haven't already. Her performance in that was amazing (Also, Ben Browder's performance was also top notch there too)
Strange that you mention that shadowheart, Karlach and Astarion since on most bg3 videos Lae'zel is the thumbnail.
I tried listening to the Karlach on youtube, didn't enjoy her voice maybe it is just me.
In dao I loved leliana and Loghain ; I love Simon Templeman performance especially for his voice in Legacy of kain series. Not to mention his performance as Doctor Doom in 90's version of Fantastic Four.
I loved da2 because of Jo Wyatt performance as female hawke.
Mass effect it was jennifer hale as female shepard ; Jennifer hale is a legend since she voiced bastilla shan in kotor 1; teasing bastila was the best part of kotor 1. Kaiden was voiced by the same actor who voiced Carth onasi in kotor 1.
Mass effect 2 has awesome voice actors roster: Claudia Black, Tricia Helfer (Number Six in battlestar reboot, kerrigan in starcraft 2), Michael Hogan, Jennifer Hale, Carrie-Anne Moss, Martin Sheen.
I never heard of Farscape, I will check it out.
Live or die as long is battle is worthy and honor is gained.
Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, sex and how attractive characters are matter to the average gamer. Things like waifus in games are a big deal. People complain that Aloy in the Horizon games is ugly.
Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, sex and how attractive characters are matter to the average gamer. Things like waifus in games are a big deal. People complain that Aloy in the Horizon games is ugly.
Which is sadly, why we didn't got small race companions, because obviously people don't think, they are waifu material enough. Aloy is s very pretty btw, I never understood the complaints.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, sex and how attractive characters are matter to the average gamer. Things like waifus in games are a big deal. People complain that Aloy in the Horizon games is ugly.
Which is sadly, why we didn't got small race companions, because obviously people don't think, they are waifu material enough. Aloy is s very pretty btw, I never understood the complaints.
Even though the shorty models turned out really nice, Helsik and Korilla easily make it into the prettiest NPC lists for me. Anyway, came for the immersive sim elements, stayed for the wizard - you are nice too Lae'zel.
I think it's a first game Aloy versus second game Aloy debate.
Even though the shorty models turned out really nice, Helsik and Korilla easily make it into the prettiest NPC lists for me. Anyway, came for the immersive sim elements, stayed for the wizard - you are nice too Lae'zel.
Don't agree on Helsik, but Korrilla is so beautiful! That head is fantastic.
Marketing and lack of serious bad press, rival franchises going downhill, video games becoming mainstream as a whole. It helps that almost everything is voiced. A video game these days doesn't need to be perfect, it needs to fail to be off-putting. Most non-RPG fans find reading too much massively off putting, for example, so you need to work around that. Bg3 became popular for most of the same reasons the Witcher 3 did. All around competence > being exceptional in one or two aspects, and downright bad in others.
If you're going to go the extra mile, make the world "alive"... something both games also committed to. Truthfully, a lot of people want to play. The fewer you scare away, the bigger your success. It's as simple as that.
Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, sex and how attractive characters are matter to the average gamer. Things like waifus in games are a big deal. People complain that Aloy in the Horizon games is ugly.
Which is sadly, why we didn't got small race companions, because obviously people don't think, they are waifu material enough. Aloy is s very pretty btw, I never understood the complaints.
Even though the shorty models turned out really nice, Helsik and Korilla easily make it into the prettiest NPC lists for me. Anyway, came for the immersive sim elements, stayed for the wizard - you are nice too Lae'zel.
I think it's a first game Aloy versus second game Aloy debate.
Dwarf females have the most beautiful heads in the game and I die on that hill. Hope is very pretty too. I love gnomes too - I think, I might have a crush on Philomeen. And of course our fauvourite Barcus.
It's still a shame, we don't have shorty companions.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
