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How is it possible that the Dark Urge just lets Ascended Astarion walk all over them? Seriously, why in Faerun would
the child of the god of murder—a notorious villain—
be so submissive? It’s ridiculous and makes no sense! It ruins my immersion and ruins what I have going on with my character. If anything, Dark Urge should be the more dominant one in the relationship based on what we know. This is the same person who can
rip off Gale's hand, for Bhaal's sake.


If you’re playing Dark Urge, Larian needs to add an option to dominate Ascended Astarion during the romance scene and kisses. Astarion should be the one kneeling. It can be through a one time Intimidation check during the romance scene. It's cute that Astarion thinks he's the one in charge, but it’s time for the Dark Urge to show who's really in control.


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Hm, could be fun. I always saw AA as a lot of talk. A bit more bratty. He's the bark, Durge is the bite. And to be perfectly fair...they *did* add what you request (a chance to make him kneel) though maybe not in the way that you're imagining.

On the opposite side, there are a handful of times Durge (and even Tav) can demonstrate there, ah, proclivity for pain. I tend to RP self-loathing Durge. And once my Durge learns of their origins, they seek someone powerful enough to control them, for fear of themselves. But it could be compelling to have an intimidation check for the kneel kiss. Not necessarily to make him kneel in return, but to come back with some of Durge's notorious bite in response.

Interesting proposal. Excited to see where this discussion goes!

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I think rewriting the entire story, so that the Dark Urge dominates AA is asking too much. There should be a line after you accept being Bhaal's chosen one where you can kill your romance. So you could break your relationship at an early stage, especially when Astarion starts talking about dowry and "nicley sitting in my lab" or you don't like the kisses or the kneeling down. That's the way a Dark Urge who is Bhaal's Chosen breaks with his romance.

I would have liked a kiss that my Durge bites back, but ok. I have accepted that there is no separation between Durge and Tav as there are many things where a Durge is not Tav and the story of the Durge suffers.

Last edited by Sini; 07/10/24 05:41 PM.

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Categorically opposed. It completely contradicts the story of Ascended Astarion, it doesn't fit the conversion scene or the plot. I am against the game being allowed to ab*se a person who survived slavery, sexual ab*se, and all the things Astarion went through in his life in such a way. Right now the D/s romance in the game has a consensual dynamic, and it should stay that way. It's quite enough that there's the “I want your body” line. Adding content like this while ignoring the requests of players who love this character, and yet have no way to even tell him, “I love you”, no adequate lines in the post-Ascension scene, no kiss in the epilogue - I hope the esteemed developers won't be so cruel to their own fans.

If you don't like Astarion's dominance, there is Gale and Wyll in the game. If you like bringing companions to their knees, there are mods made for that, you can find that if you google it. Let Larian rather not add anything to romance at all and do other things just to avoid adding this.

Last edited by Marielle; 07/10/24 06:48 PM.

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Originally Posted by Natasy
Hm, could be fun. I always saw AA as a lot of talk. A bit more bratty. He's the bark, Durge is the bite. And to be perfectly fair...they *did* add what you request (a chance to make him kneel) though maybe not in the way that you're imagining.

Oh, I forgot about that, thank you for reminding me. It is a good scene though I think it was negative in the scene? If I remember right. In my suggestion it wouldn't be so negative. Thanks for sharing about your RP.

Originally Posted by Sini
I think rewriting the entire story, so that the Dark Urge dominates AA is asking too much. There should be a line after you accept being Bhaal's chosen one where you can kill your romance. So you could break your relationship at an early stage, especially when Astarion starts talking about dowry and "nicley sitting in my lab" or you don't like the kisses or the kneeling down. That's the way a Dark Urge who is Bhaal's Chosen breaks with his romance.

I don't want to break the romance though? I don't really see killing or breaking up as a fix to the Dark Urge characterization here. But thanks for sharing your idea.

Originally Posted by Marielle
Categorically opposed. It completely contradicts the story of Ascended Astarion, it doesn't fit the conversion scene or the plot. I am against the game being allowed to ab*se a person who survived slavery, sexual ab*se, and all the things Astarion went through in his life in such a way. Right now the D/s romance in the game has a consensual dynamic, and it should stay that way.

It doesn't contradicts his character at all. Ascended Astarion is open about wanting to make his consort happy and give her what she wants. What if his consort is the more dominant one? It makes perfect sense especially for Dark Urge. I don't like that you're implying flipping the roles would somehow make it not consensual. Connecting being dominant to being the same thing as sexual ab*se is wrong. If you're saying being in the dominant role is abuse, then is Astarion is abusing Dark Urge right now? Come on.


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No it's not a good scene. It lacks the romantic, consensual context I'm sure you're looking for. And the patch 7 kneel is not something I would pursue personally. My favorite pair is resist Durge+AA, I've always played as the more dominant of the pair as well. So the kneeling kiss made me roll my eyes. I think the kneeling is perfect and symbolic during the transformation scene. But for the kiss... Yeah, hard sell for me that my neutral evil, noble Durge would get her knees dirty. But I can still roll with it for roleplay. My PC does like to spoil him. I think there's a mod that reverses roles for the AA kisses. With the new patch 7 expressions, so Astarion doesn't look scared, I might try it out once it hits console! The writing for the game is overall pretty inconsistent in a lot of ways. I just add this to the growing list and try to roll with it.

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Romantic, yeah that's a good way to describe what I'm asking for. The new ending is cool but doesn't fit my RP.
Yeah, the kneeling kiss is hard to believe Dark Urge would accept! It's fun to play an evil power couple but takes me out of it when Astarion is acting higher and mightier than a demigod, lol. It will be cool if your mod makes it to console.


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As Chosen, I cannot let any of my romanced partners kneel in front of me, and AA is no exception. If kneeling during AA's one kiss bothers you, you'll need to adjust your personal RP. Fortunately, the terrible facial expressions are gone and I can avoid the rest with my story in which both are dominant and have fun, whoever emerges as the winner in the situation. The Durge can certainly kneel with a smile.

Dominating Ascended Astarion in general I reject as it doesn't fit with their shared history as their deep, if strange, love is based on mutual understanding as they are both victims. I find some things to be written inappropriately for the situation, but there are a lot of them in the game and they are based more on my personal view than I would think a change is necessary.

I don't think AA is able to dominate the Durge and I wouldn't judge that based on the one kiss that applies to everyone else and it's more of a personal preference. As I said, I would also like the possibility of killing my romance after becoming Bhaal's Chosen, but it is also based on my personal preferences. The question would then not be whether the Durge should be able to dominate AA, as that would then apply to all possible partners, but rather whether one should generally change AA's kisses so that this situation does not arise.

I have to accept that in many places in the game the Durge is not treated like the Durge.I can play the Durge in many ways and it is impossible to adapt it to every style of play, so I have to take action myself and adapt my own story to the circumstances. You can leave Larian feedback and see if your suggestion matches with Larian's visions.

In this sense

Last edited by Sini; 08/10/24 12:31 AM.

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Originally Posted by IronRaven
It doesn't contradicts his character at all. Ascended Astarion is open about wanting to make his consort happy and give her what she wants. What if his consort is the more dominant one? It makes perfect sense especially for Dark Urge. I don't like that you're implying flipping the roles would somehow make it not consensual. Connecting being dominant to being the same thing as sexual ab*se is wrong. If you're saying being in the dominant role is abuse, then is Astarion is abusing Dark Urge right now? Come on.

Astarion experienced two hundred years of slavery, torture and humiliation. The last thing a loving partner would do is try to dominate someone with that kind of trauma (through intimidation, yep). Intimidation and consent, in my opinion, somehow don't go together. Even if we imagine a situation in which Astarion could agree to this (which is unlikely, Astarion is unlikely to want to kneel in front of anyone again), he would feel bad in this kind of “romance”, and inevitably triggers that provoke trauma. What Astarion says about wanting to make his consort happy and give her what she wants is yes, there are certain inconsistencies at play between those lines and the lack of option to not kneel and opt for, for example, classic romantic kissing. Of course, it would have been better if Larian had made two lines - one for those who like the D/s romance and want to be submissive, and a second line with classic romance. As it stands, there is nowhere and no way in the game you can tell Astarion that the D/U doesn't want to be submissive, those lines simply don't exist. You automatically sign up for it in the conversion scene when you kneel after passing the check (the only check in the entire game that yields no results and no additional lines) and agree that “you like degrading yourself”. It's not Astarion putting the DU into submission, it's in the game script that any partner of the Ascended Astarion is a submissive. And Astarion, for his part, is sure that the DU enjoys it. For interest's sake, you can just look at this not from your character's eyes, but from Astarion's eyes, seeing from the outside what lines and reactions are available to the DU, what Astarion hears and sees. Kneeling the DU was the romance author's decision, Astarion would have acted differently if there was a chance to talk to him about it. But Astarion himself is not, in my opinion, a character that is acceptable to dominate. Maybe softer options, elements of possessive dynamics, without humiliation, might appeal to him. Grabbing and pulling him to you for a kiss, or a hug, a firmer and stronger hug, so that you literally cling to him, that might be passionate and appropriate, but definitely not knees. His past and his injuries should not be forgotten. And in terms of other companions, I think Halsin would be a good fit as a submissive, he's pretty easygoing about various sexual games. I am in no way associating domination with sexual violence, I don't think it's acceptable to do that with a character who has experienced trauma, especially through intimidation. With someone else, without that kind of trauma, yes, it can be sexy. And Astarion doesn't force DU, DU does it completely voluntarily. It could be said that the romance scenario forces the player to play that way, the plot offers only one specific rigid framework, with no possibility of other roleplay, but Astarion himself, in any case, doesn't force anything. And at the very least, for such a dynamic in a story, there should be full dialog with discussion, not intimidation. Yes, the author hasn't done that for the player, and you can't discuss anything with Astarion, so the player may get the false impression that Astarion is abu*sing the DU.


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Originally Posted by IronRaven
Romantic, yeah that's a good way to describe what I'm asking for. The new ending is cool but doesn't fit my RP.
Yeah, the kneeling kiss is hard to believe Dark Urge would accept! It's fun to play an evil power couple but takes me out of it when Astarion is acting higher and mightier than a demigod, lol. It will be cool if your mod makes it to console.

If I notice the mod show up on console I'll drop you a line! I agree, I love the evil couple dynamic. I think it's definitely possible to roleplay the way you want. Durge is strong enough to handle a little pushback without breaking stride, and may even revel in their LI exercising their newfound autonomy in such a wonderfully evil way. Also, kind of fitting that the kid of the god of murder would fall in love with a demigod level mega brat XD but for me, Astarion is pretty consistently catty/arrogant/evil humored throughout the game, so it would just be the same cheek for Durge to smirk and shake their head at with AA. Not something that would intimidate a Bhaal spawn in the slightest. Wouldn't say it's AA walking all over them. Durge is pretty depraved. A romanced Durge (imo) would kneel to indulge AA in exercising his willpower and autonomy for the first time in two hundered years and feel a bit of pride in him for it, for being so deliciously evil about it >:)

Also I was assuming the intimidation check would be run against the player, whether or not AA could successfully intimate them by having the player roll. Not a roll to intimidate AA. I don't see Larian implementing that. Though I enjoy discussing the suggestion and roleplay nonetheless!

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Have you tried the Nightingale's Lord Astarion mod?

It has the Minthara kisses reversed, so your Tav/DUrge is doing them to AA. It fits them so well, in my opinion. Just the right amount of dominance, and one really romantic one.

Your Tav has to be body type 1 though I believe, I assume it's because Minthara has that type. And it is random what kiss animation you get so it's not always Minthara's animations.

Edit: I just saw you where on console. I really hope Larian/Sony whomever adds it as a mod for you guys.

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Is this out on console yet?? Who do I have to beg to have it updated/ported? 😭

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Originally Posted by Natasy
Is this out on console yet?? Who do I have to beg to have it updated/ported? 😭

Nightingale's Lord Astarion is such a good mod. galehearteyes If you need me to vote for you guys to get this on console I'll be there! I hope you all get it eventually.

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@Sini Thanks, I send some feedback. I have to make up too much in my head for Astarion dominating Dark Urge to make sense to me. But it is cool to see everyone's opinions on how to make it work.

@Marielle But Dark Urge endured much trauma too and is still being dominated by Astarion. That doesn't mean Astarion isn't a loving partner. In my suggestion it is a romantic and consensual role switch. It can be healing for some vicims to try submission with a loving partner. Obviously Dark Urge won't hurt him, so there is nothing abusive. The intimidation check was supposed to be against Dark Urge maybe I wrote my suggestion too fast. It can make it too complicated and bring up problems. Instead Dark Urge can just ask to switch roles.

@KiraMira I didn't know about that mod, modders really are the best! I'm on console but I hope Larian adds it. Thanks!!


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@IronRaven I apologize, I misunderstood you at first. It's just that the game already has so much bad content for Astarion, the video with the evil ending, where Tav brings him to his knees is really painful to watch, and the ending for the evil DU was made so that now for me personally the possibility of playing as a DU without rejecting Bhaal is just destroyed by that ending. Even in a romantic scene, where you can't discuss the topic of “humiliating yourself” in any way, there's such a disgusting “option” as “kick him in the balls”, which causes a flurry of negative emotions on first playthrough and a desire to finally force myself to start understanding the game code at least a little bit to find out if it's possible to cleanse my own game of that text, on subsequent playthroughs/replays of that scene. But the way in which you explain this possibility of domination is certainly another matter, if one believes that the developers can somehow adequately implement it.

About Astarion's dominance over DU, that requires some sort of “internal roleplay” to explain it for yourself. I like several variations for such a roleplay. One, the DU is showing care for Astarion in this way, not “degrading herself” but elevating him, thus helping him to heal the trauma, to feel “on top”, to feel in control and safe, which allows Astarion to open up sexually, to really enjoy it, and to trust his partner when the DU shows him acceptance and gives him the opportunity for dominance and control. Second, the DU thus shows those around him how to treat the Lord in this way. For example, Wyll (if he is alive in this playthrough), calls Astarion a “degenerate”, flies into a wall (or something else along those lines, various spells can be cast on companions), then the DU kisses Astarion on her knees, and when she gets up, Wyll goes flying again to cement it. smile Third, the DU can be obsessed by Astarion and enjoy everything he does, which in no way prevents the DU from behaving dominantly and aggressively towards everyone else, because only Astarion is the object of their obsession and their attitude towards him is radically different from that of the world at large. Suitable for a somewhat insane Joker-style DU. The DU can show everyone who is really the top predator here, it's just that this predator only allows one person in the world to do whatever he wants.


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I'm completely against it.
It goes against all that AA represents.
People already aren't happy that Larian is watering down AA. Dear Larian, please, go and read places that represent people's opinions better - Reddit community, for example, has 2.5 mil members.
As AA fan who loves this route BECAUSE he is evil and abusive, I don't need to see him being submissive to Durge, because it goes against everything this character represents. This would be an assassination of AA character. His entire point is that HE NEEDS to be in control. He breaks up with Tav/Durge who doesn't want to become his spawn exactly for this reason. He would never EVER agree to submit to anyone again. Even with 99 intimidation check. This is the entire point of his character.
Dear Larian, please, stay true to your vision of this character and focus on his much more important present problems like lacking the endgame kiss and having the same approvals as Spawn Astarion. He also has bugged epilogues with Illithid Tav.

Number one priority, in my opinion, should be giving us an option to choose Tav's expressions in AA kisses before any other possible fix to his romantic scenes - I'm on console and I can't even mod away those (awful for me) happy expressions which trigger me so much that I can't play this romance anymore.
These are much more important issues to fix, in my opinion. Abuse is not the topic you can simply and easily dismiss. You need to deal with it responsibly. Enough people are already saying that Larian romanticized and normalized abuse by making Tav look happy in AA's kisses. I don't want to see my favorite gaming studio get cancelled in the future because of it.
Dear Larian, you need to deal with the problem of AA's kisses animations ASAP, please, don't make it even worse than it already is for a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by Rote90
Enough people are already saying that Larian romanticized and normalized abuse by making Tav look happy in AA's kisses. I don't want to see my favorite gaming studio get cancelled in the future because of it.
I don't understand how this works? The happy expression on the main character's face during the kiss, Astarion is pleased, the kiss is done voluntarily, Tav is pleased and doesn't mind, is this called romanticizing violence? And the fear on the main character's face and Astarion's smile at the same time, is that then the norm? In my opinion, the logic is broken.

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Please let’s not have another thread unnecessarily bringing up difficult and potentially triggering topics. Our forum rules permit that within reason where required to make a valid point and ***within spoiler tags*** but that is not the topic of this thread. Please exercise consideration for other forum members, particularly when you know you’ve raised similar points in multiple other threads, and don’t derail topics with discussion that many forum members are likely to find both provocative and upsetting.

Let’s draw a line under any discussion of abuse on this thread, which doesn’t seem relevant to the OP’s point.


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