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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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Similar to the other thread about companions, here the same for NPCs. How did your view about them change?
I begin with a few ( more later for sure)
Barcus Wroot I thought him pretty cranky in early access and did free him, but never really cared for him. Now with all the background and him becoming a friend over the course of the game, he became my favourite character in the game. I especially love, how he steps up and takes control of a situation against his friend and to save the day. He is the normal person that gets thrown into chaos and somehow makes it. Totally reliable and a good story.
Zevlor I was sure, he would betray us at some point in early access, however his actual arc is more complicated and that made me like him more. He is faulty, he had a panic attack, that did cost some of his people their lives, but he owns up and pledges himself to our course. The hellriders are actually one of the best summon in the final fight. I like, that Zevlor is this complicated being, who wants to do good, but has seen too much shit and therefore makes bad decisions.
Korilla In EA she was just a hench woman of Raphael to save you and spy on you, but I actually did grow to care for her and her sister Hope. I want to know more about their backgrounds and what made Korilla going from being the overprotective sister to despising Hope and not caring for her sister to get tortured. Of course, Raphael probably has a lot to do with that, but still, it would have been interesting to explore.
Raphael At first, he was this quirky devil, not trustworthy, but I thought him more likeable than Mizora. Turned out, that he was the biggest piece of crap out there and that you really shouldn't do that deal. His treatment of Hope, including the implied rape, was the nail in the coffin: I hate the guy and his stupid incubus. But he is well acted and the creepiness of him hits hard, so I would say, he is one of the best villains - vain, cruel, entitled.
Alfira I found her bland and boring, the song was nice though. I started to care more for her in the full game. Love her little love story with Lakrissa.
Voss Didn't like him, but after knowing more about Githyanki, I appreciate, that he could just have outright attacked us at the bridge. I guess on top of being a rebel, he is also more thoughtful. Nowadays it looks, as if he just wants to give Lae'zel a way out in the bridge conversion ( the deception roll for Lae'zel seems to be pretty low, I never not made it so far).
Wulbren I really didn't like him for being so mean to my bestie Barcus. But reading his journal, I came to think, that he is mean to his friend to drive him away and out of danger. He is right in seeing Gortash and the Steelwatchers as the main problem, but totally wrong in wanting to committ genocide. Still, if stopped and exiled, I do think he can change.
With a lot of characters, I didn't change my opinion.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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My opinions also haven’t changed much between playthroughs, here are a few though:
Barth, one of Aradin’s gang with a vile temper. After I managed to resolve the situation with the locket amicably, I now think that he needs better friends, less wine, and some anger management training but ultimately, I take extra care to save his skin at the gate now.
Wulbren, what a horrible person. His diary made me think he was ok once, but prisonbreaking him and the tieflings by getting myself arrested made the difference. I still think he’s a tiny pile of spite but he makes you feel like he is a reliable person to know when you are in a pickle, so I can now understand why the gnomes follow him.
Cal & Lia, I thought they were lovely but ultimately side characters to their brother’s quest. Meeting them from inside a jail cell made me appreciate them more as characters and just made me wish they had a bit more content.
Valeria, shitey little elephant. Reading her diary didn’t change much about that opinion but it also makes me feel sorry for her. That I once forgot to free her from the temple for about a week, seems to have been a good choice in hindsight, gave her some time to dry out.
Figaro, I thought he was ok, had a bit of a squabble with his sister, but that’s siblings for you. Then I managed to kill Dolor before he made it to Facemaker’s Boutique and Figaro instantly became obnoxious. Robbing his cellar also made me discover that he forged his father’s testament and cheated his sister out of her inheritance. I feel much better robbing him now. His one saving grace is that he apparently helped Leon with his plan to save Victoria - but I assume that he didn’t do this out of the goodness of his heart either.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2025
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I don't think I can do this without getting into colossal spoilers for the whole game, so I'm just going to lump it all in one massive spoiler block. Alfira: I thought she had a sort of "writer's pet" energy, everything from her outfit to her song and everything else. It's like the game felt desperate to make me like her. I found her to be sickly sweet. And then I did a Durge playthrough. In spite of less than stellar initial impressions, this writer's pet has grown on me quite a lot.
Ethel: I wasm't sure what to make of her at all, I couldn't make up my mind if that bland granny energy was just setting her up to make you paranoid about how nice she is or what! I like her now, absolutely reprehensible person but I enjoy her Vicious Mockery and "playing pirate captain".
Barcus: I thought he was whiny, annoying, and an idiot. I probably would be too if I had been strapped to a windmill for hours. I still think he's a bit dense for not seeing Wulbren for what he is but he's grown on me.
Gortash: He's so very creep coded, I instantly didn't like him. My opinion of him shifted slightly when he appeared to follow through on his deal, then I laughed at his betrayal and the Absolute NOPE-ing him. Garbage person, written and presented well enough to instantly come across as garbage. In a way though, I wish he was pretty. I think there's some really unfortunate implications about a band of supermodels killing sll the ugly people. Otoh, ew lol. Sexy Gortash is not something I want lol.
Isobel: Felt too much like we were supposed to like her at first, which was a little offputting for me. I grew to like her more when she joined the camp though
Kagha: I found her annoyingly "video game-y" and as I've been through more dialogue options with her, she's been less and less sympathetic to me. She was radicalized by a LETTER! "Dear mistress druid, you should become a racist piece of garbage. Hugs and kisses, your local evil druids." I mostly try to save her still, but fml with that kind of gullibility, Halsin should examine her head and make sure there isn't an open hole for her brain to fall out! I did like how she is tied to the Absolute plot by a book in Moonrise, though.
Ketheric: Complete consistency here. His backstory is a reason he turned evil, not an excuse or justification for it. He ultimately made the conscious choice to spread his pain to others. Sucks for him, sure, but empathy=/=sympathy. Talking to Isobel made my opinion of him slightly worse, as there's some decidedly queerphobic undertones to her version of the story, and we all love our moon lesbians, right?
Mayrina: I figured out the broad strokes of her situation instantly, but in act 3 I was annoyed by how the other hag survivors viewed her as a leader. It felt like childish writing to me, like the way a lot of poorly written things push the main character as a leader because they are the main character and being in charge sounds good to the writers. In both of her appearances, she's a literal damsel in distress with no agency of her own, and she was willing to sacrifice her own child. What part of that makes her a good leader?
Mizora: No change, she's a flat evil character we're supposed to hate, and she works in that role just fine. There's nothing wrong with a character being one dimensional and unambiguous if it fits in the story.
Raphael: Instantly charmed by and suspicious of him. After finally taking his deal and NOT murdering him, I was honestly disappointed that he was an honest devil. It's just kind of weird to me. Reminds me of that Lucifer show(which btw is really good if you can tolerate the copaganda), but I think honesty was a poor fit for him. I mean honest regarding your deal, specifically.
Scratch: I had such a ridiculously wrong read of him, it's actually kind of funny. I assumed that in a world where literal devils roam, that a dog possessing a name reminiscent of a devil pacing around a corpse was going to be the devil, or at least a hellhound. I was waiting for that reveal all the way until Rivington, and then the rest of his story happened.
Zevlor: He evoked no feelings whatsoever intially, even in act 2. "Oh, thing happened with that guy. Ok then." I liked him after fighting alongside him in later playthroughs, though. He felt more sympathetic with his speeches in the equation, his status as a refugee and traitor was more heartbreaking knowing the he cared so much yet was swayed so easily. Summoning him in the final battle feels pretty cool now, like you're giving him redemption.
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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There is one of the tiefling kids, I never paid much attention to: Silfy. She is such a sweetheart and nowadays, I always try to help her in act 3.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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I will just stick to talking about one of my personal favourites.
Wulbren Yes, the fuck Wulbren. First of all, I like small bald guys, so he instantly scores a couple of points there together with Barcus (along with the duergar Morghal at the Grymforge welcoming party, short bald girls are also cute).
I also like flawed characters and Wulbren has an abundance of flaws. And I really enjoy and like the development that there is no fixing him. Through the loyal and sensible character of Barcus, the story makes you hope and think that there is a redemption for Wulbren at the end. But every time he shows up and you think you might be able to talk some sense into him this time, he gives you a big middle finger right in your face. I guess there's no real development happening, but I still changed my view several times through the lack of development. From finding him an ungrafeful bastard at first, to embracing some hope for redemption to finding him just awesome at the end because he is still the same ungrafeful bastard he was when you first met him. I think he is a great example of a well-written character that has a great character arc, without the need for some profound change or sudden revelation. Wulbren is gonna Wulbren and there's nothing you can do about it.
So yes, fuck Wulbren, both literally and figuratively!
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2024
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I knew the meme of people hating Wulbren, but he actually made a decent first impression on me, because he wanted to free the Tiefling prisoners. I was then surprised with how dismissive he was of Barcus, and I saw red in act 3, when he said, "Quiet, Barcus. The adults are talking." I found your diary, Wulbren. I know you used to be friends.
I really liked their story. It's very satisfying to take down Wulbren, and Barcus has such a great arc for someone who's just a side character.
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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I knew the meme of people hating Wulbren, but he actually made a decent first impression on me, because he wanted to free the Tiefling prisoners. I was then surprised with how dismissive he was of Barcus, and I saw red in act 3, when he said, "Quiet, Barcus. The adults are talking." I found your diary, Wulbren. I know you used to be friends.
I really liked their story. It's very satisfying to take down Wulbren, and Barcus has such a great arc for someone who's just a side character. I always thought, that Wulbren being mean to Barcus was to drive him away and out of danger. I do think he is annoyed that Barcus is so adamant against killing the Gondians, but I also think he still does like his friend. And yes, he was honourable towards the tieflings, when he just could have ran away. I don't get the hate for Wulbren either, when people like Gortash, Raphael,Orin etc are right there. But I guess people find all kind of excuses for characters that are 'hot'.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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t, that Wulbren being mean to Barcus was to drive him away and out of danger. I do think he is annoyed that Barcus is so adamant against killing the Gondians, but I also think he still does like his friend. I thought it was because he is trying to distance himself from his former self and Barcus is sort of ruining the image of the strong, tough leader he's trying to project to the Ironhand Gnomes. Like if someone is trying to be the toughest guy on the block but their mom keeps taling about how they saved little birds as a child.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2024
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t, that Wulbren being mean to Barcus was to drive him away and out of danger. I do think he is annoyed that Barcus is so adamant against killing the Gondians, but I also think he still does like his friend. I thought it was because he is trying to distance himself from his former self and Barcus is sort of ruining the image of the strong, tough leader he's trying to project to the Ironhand Gnomes. Like if someone is trying to be the toughest guy on the block but their mom keeps taling about how they saved little birds as a child. Oh, interesting! These ideas got me curious. I found some interesting devnotes. If the player tells Wulbren in the prison that Barcus sent them, he says, " ...Barcus is out here? Didn't think he had the stones." The devnote says " a beat - surprise. Barcus is an old friend - one he's had disagreements with." After you meet up again with Wulbren after escaping, he can say, " You're good to have humoured Barcus for so long. The poor fellow is like creeping moss, if you know what I mean." That line has the devnote, " Wulbren sees Barcus as a fly in his soup and is trying to bond with the player over it." Total misread in my case, since I love Barcus :P They must have a very complicated relationship. I think my opinion is changing again, to dislike Wulbren even more, lol. He's also hypocritical for wanting to kill the Gondians forced to work for Gortash, considering he calls his forebears working with Sarevok "nothing more than foolishness." On the other hand, his group seems to be the only ones to recognize that Gortash and the Steel Watch are a threat, and they're trying to do something about it. The Ironhand Gnomes plot lasts through every act, and it's one of my favourite stories in the game.
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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I love everything tied to Barcus. His story is pretty engaging. I still think, he should have been a companion.
I thought about other NPCs and came up with those:
Abdirak: On my very first playthrough of early access bback in 2020, I was creeped out, when I've met him and when he offered his penance, I gave the very rude answer about him loosing a hand, if he tries. He took it like a pro, made a joke and then just said, he will be here a while and I can come back if I change my mind and wished me a good day. That really changed my mind about him. He really is not yout typical Loviatan and I came to liek this character (even put him in a backstory for one of my characters).
The seven original spawns, especially Leon and Dalyria: Leon is the father of Victoria and tries to protect her.It seems that he succeeded and the body we can find is in fact not his daughter, but an urchin. I do feel with him to want to keep his daughter save and I'm glad, Victoria seemed to have made it. But pulling an innocent urchin into the mix and letting her get killed put a damper again on my pity for him. Still, there is probably not much, he could have done and it seemed, he tried to keep the urchin safe too by putting that curse on her. I now am even more motivated to save him, so that his daughter can be reunited with her dad. Dalyria was the one, who killed the child. I felt bad for her in my first playthrough, before I discovered, what she did. She might have done a lot of bad stuff on Cazadors orders and that is nothing, she can be held accountable for, since she couldn't refuse, but killing the girl was her decision and that made me really dislike her. I have read, you can disrupt Cazadors ritual by killing one of the spawn - didn't do that before, but I might rethink that, because I do think, Dalyria has all the makings of a mad scientist (she killed the girl, because she thought it will cure her). I don't have strong opinions about the other spawns (apart from the one, that is our companion of course), since we don't learn a whole lot about them.
Derryth Bonecloak: I thought she was a pretty mean lady at the beginning, until I learned her story and also talked to the deep rothé. She has my sympathy and I not only give her the noblestalk more often than not, but also make sure, her husband won't return and she gets a cute cat instead. We don't like abusers in this house, not even, if they lost their minds.
Last edited by fylimar; 25/01/25 05:35 PM.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2024
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I'm trying to stay in line with the question this time, so I'm grabbing the line-up from the OP: Barcus Wroot When I finally met him again, it took me a moment to realise that he was THE gnome we had saved at the blighted windmill. By the time I'd hit the Shadow-cursed lands, my first forages into the Wilderness were a bit of a blur, because I'd intended to play BG3 in multiplayer with some old mates whom I waited for, dallying around here and there, and I could only play on weekends. Coming from AD&D 2e, my first thought was probably "What's a Svirneblin doing up here, and how did he end up up there?" Over the course of the game I not only started to appreciate Barcus as a gnomish being, but also as a purveyor of nice wares and probably the gnome most faithful to the original vision of nice, good-natured deep delvers living in a cruel dark place.
Zevlor Tieflings in BG3 differed a lot from my 2e-expectations, although a lot of it could be explained by in-game developments that happened during the 120-year gap between editions. In original Planescape, they were quite rare on the Toril, and generally though often unfairly distrusted, so meeting a Tiefling paladin from a community on Toril was one of those things that felt like progress. Neither my Tav nor me could believe he would betray his people like that and expected a plot-twist.
Korilla When I first ran into Korilla, I wasn't sure the next morning if I had really seen someone sneaking around the campsite during the party or if I'd dreamt it or had a bugged animation. During that time I fully expected a Gur attack, Githyanki raiders or even random monster attacks in camp, so this really rang the alarm. But nothing happened, so I kind of forgot all about it. I postponed investigating the Mason's Guild with the reconnaissance team and returned with the battle squad, but she was gone. When we met her again in Act 3, it took me a moment to recognise her robes, and since we weren't friendly with Rafael, there wasn't much to talk about and the place became a fiery toxic mess. In the end, I really would have loved to save her, and if for Hope.
Raphael I always thought sending a powerful villain early in the game to tell PCs what to do can easily become railroading and should be done right. Sava didn't even want to think about why her eye was itching, and I thought that the last thing we need is some one-sided deal with a powerful Baatezu compromising us when we have a main goal already. One major reason why my Tav and Astarion didn't get along during Acts 1&2 was Rafael and what to do with his proposals. Due to some missed DCs we also never found out who build the Gauntlet, so while it all unravelled either pretty much as expected or retrospectively for me, I still think the character and his story are amazing!
Alfira There are some people who think better of you than yourself, and in BG3 Alfira is definitely one of them. When I met a Tiefling bard, it was once again a "Wow, things changed!"-moment, in a good way. I felt that her positivity towards my Tav was maybe a little over the top for how things went, but getting to be a celebrated hero of the hour was one part of the explanation why my mean-spirited githyanki necromancer softened up towards the Tieflings.
Voss Being able to play a githyanki was part of BG3's lure for me. I already had plenty of material on them but since my players don't like astral space, I never had any real use for them beyond being the red tape around really weird areas or not-quite-random encounters to hurry players along. Seeing how they'd work story-wise in a physical setting in 5e was therefore a nice inspiration for my own games and I also didn't sail without a map in this case. Knowing we should probably avoid githyanki patrols until we know more about our condition, running into them wasn't something I was looking forward to. Our first meeting happened when Lae'zel was in camp, but I thought it weird that he'd simply send Sava off to her Crèche and wouldn't implore further into the fishy mess of our story. After the meeting it was quite clear to me that we'd take the furthest route around Crèche Y'llek. Until his motives were revealed, I was never quite sure whose payroll he was on, but really got to like the beaten warrior wanting to do the right thing.
Wulbren I guess with this chap I went from thinking he's a silly megalomaniac and maybe not a gnome at all to fearing he could jeopardise all our carefully laid-out plans for taking out the Absolute, and if by trying something stupid with the forge. His hunger for power may not be quenched, so I wouldn't be surprised if he'd be BG4's main antagonist.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2025
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Nym & Sorn Orlith: Yes, the twin drow prostitutes. I found them pretty funny(hire Sorn and try guessing his fetish or go for the orgy!), but the more dialogue options I explored, the more I liked them. The writing for them is really considerate and humanizing, respectful of consent, boundaries, and sex workers. There's even respect for sensual ace kink, which isn't my thing but I'm honestly glad it's there. I don't think any piece of media I've consumed has been so respectful of sex workers, and that made me like them more.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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Nym & Sorn Orlith: Yes, the twin drow prostitutes. I found them pretty funny(hire Sorn and try guessing his fetish or go for the orgy!), but the more dialogue options I explored, the more I liked them. The writing for them is really considerate and humanizing, respectful of consent, boundaries, and sex workers. There's even respect for sensual ace kink, which isn't my thing but I'm honestly glad it's there. I don't think any piece of media I've consumed has been so respectful of sex workers, and that made me like them more. It's a realistic portrayal, but if you probe a little bit you can actually reveal some of the dark and ugly flip side which the game kind of just brushes away. Because humanizing themselves to you is part of the sell. They are sex workers who are actively working when they are talking to you. It is not a casual informal conversation. It is the same as when a car salesman tells you an emotional and romantic story that they had with their wife with this car. Not a single word of that story might be true. And you can actually expose that they are not from Menzoberranzan at all, so what else are they lying about just to excite you or put you at ease? But I do give credit that it's very realistically written, so realistic that most people fall for their act and don't question it. If the game really wanted to humanize the sex workers it would give you the chance to later learn how Mamzell Amira takes 80% of their profits and keeps them as forced labour under the threat of being thrown out of the city at the mercy of the army of the Absolute. I also think it's a missed opportunity that unlike the interactions you have with them one on one, the orgy has no discussion about boundaries. You can't stop at any point, even to check in on the partner that the game literally tells you is going through disassociation right before you.
Last edited by papercut_ninja; 28/01/25 09:59 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2025
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Thanks for the lecture that people that want my money will tell me things to get my money...?
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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If the game really wanted to humanize the sex workers it would give you the chance to later learn how Mamzell Amira takes 80% of their profits and keeps them as forced labour (...) You mean like the circus employees? When you enter the circus it's all fun & games in a slightly morbidly humorous way, but if you steal Lucretious's ledger and consider the implications of Dribble's quest, things look a little darker. The seven original spawns, especially Leon and Dalyria: Leon is the father of Victoria and tries to protect her.It seems that he succeeded and the body we can find is in fact not his daughter, but an urchin. I do feel with him to want to keep his daughter save and I'm glad, Victoria seemed to have made it. But pulling an innocent urchin into the mix and letting her get killed put a damper again on my pity for him. Still, there is probably not much, he could have done and it seemed, he tried to keep the urchin safe too by putting that curse on her. I now am even more motivated to save him, so that his daughter can be reunited with her dad. Dalyria was the one, who killed the child. I felt bad for her in my first playthrough, before I discovered, what she did. She might have done a lot of bad stuff on Cazadors orders and that is nothing, she can be held accountable for, since she couldn't refuse, but killing the girl was her decision and that made me really dislike her. I have read, you can disrupt Cazadors ritual by killing one of the spawn - didn't do that before, but I might rethink that, because I do think, Dalyria has all the makings of a mad scientist (she killed the girl, because she thought it will cure her). I don't have strong opinions about the other spawns (apart from the one, that is our companion of course), since we don't learn a whole lot about them. Interesting, though I think Victoria is dead and the curse was mostly meant for Cazador, who seems to have had plans for the girl. I do like that the other spawn aren't perfect victims. When I first met Dal, I wondered how she could have remained so sweet and caring as on of Cazador's spawn. When I found her journal it revealed another side, that she is also a proud of her original profession and station and that she didn not want to blindly follow Cazador into his ritual, but tried to find a way out before doomsday. The way out is of course cruel and I fear my vampire bookclub will have to deal with a bunch of inter personal issues, one resurrection and a generally rocky start. ^^ I think my opinion is changing again, to dislike Wulbren even more, lol. He's also hypocritical for wanting to kill the Gondians forced to work for Gortash, considering he calls his forebears working with Sarevok "nothing more than foolishness." I felt that he was maybe also a little bit jealous of the Gondian's achievement in a "they get funding for their project because they have no moral concerns, I on the other hand have to live in squalor without any recognition because I am righteous" sense. In the future, I have to pay more attention to the different reasonings the Ironhand Gnomes give for having joined the cause. Laridda and Lunkbug seem to be mostly in it for their significant others. Then, in my most recent game, Philomeen died and Laridda never learned the truth about Philomeen's feelings, and when I encountered Laridda again, she had become very eager and hoped that if the day ever came, she'd die just as bravely for the cause. It shocked me a little.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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Thanks for the lecture that people that want my money will tell me things to get my money...? Not aimed at lecturing you or anything directed at you personally. It was aimed at the how the game portrays sex work in a very lighthearted way just so people can go and have their lulz at Gale being uncomfortable or Halsin's wild escapades as a sex slave, rather than causing any sort of discomfort by having players have to consider the reality of a cynical industry that exploits people. To stay more on topic: I symphatize with the characters and I think they fit both in the world and their role and play their role well. But I would have liked to learn more about the real people behind the facade, not just their sex worker personas. And yes, they are still way better and more interesting than many other portrayals of sex workers since they have a realistic fake story and hook for setting up their customers and hints at there being more to them than they are letting on.
Last edited by papercut_ninja; 28/01/25 11:23 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jun 2022
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back in EA i considered Minthara a bat shit crazy drow turned on by blooding innocence/ non-believers but now that we can recruit her in our party i also think she has a sence of homour too 
Luke Skywalker: I don't, I don't believe it. Yoda: That is why you failed.
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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Anska: there is a letter from Leon, that he planned to smuggle Victoria out with the help of Figaro, the tailor. When you use Speak with Death on the corpse of the girl, she will tell you, that she is an orphan and doesn't know,why she is here.
And yes, I like, that do much detail is given to such small side characters like Dal and Leon. I don't like Dal, but I like her at the same time.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2024
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The Emperor... The more I see, the less I believe anything he says. I conclude that In the end, he's just another maniupulator not much better than Gortash.
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