Larian Banner: Baldur's Gate Patch 9
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 5 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Joined: Mar 2024
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2024
Hugely agree with OP. The first time I played I thought it was so strange that everyone was looking to the PC for his decisions. I get it's an RPG. I'm flashing on choices we can make to sway people like Leliana in Dragon Age, or Garrus in ME. But still, somehow with Wyll it feels so odd and different. Like...it's not us trying to help them or sway their own choices, but the PC is quite literally given the responsibility of making his decisions. It could've been done better. Give him a stronger sense of his own preferences and desires. Make it a choice for *him.

Tldr; +1 for OP. Give Wyll a stronger feeling of agency.

Joined: Dec 2020
fylimar Offline OP
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
Plus now his greetings are broken, which is quite frankly a bit annoying.
And I noticed something, don't know, if it is still a thing in patch 7, but just in case, I mention it: Wyll can talk to Florrick about Ansur and gets the book after we talked her out of attacking us, because Mizora poisoned her mind. And then, he has the exact same conversation with his dad: Maybe give at least the option to tell Duke Ravenguard, that we talked to Florrick and she gave us the info and the book. Instead Wyll and PC are making surprised Pikachu faces a second time. It would only need one or two more lines of dialogue.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

Doctor Who
Joined: Feb 2024
S
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
S
Joined: Feb 2024
Speaking of unfortunate patch changes, I was very sad to discover that I can't turn Mizora to stone anymore. wyllcry

Joined: Dec 2020
fylimar Offline OP
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
Originally Posted by SteelTempest
Speaking of unfortunate patch changes, I was very sad to discover that I can't turn Mizora to stone anymore. wyllcry

Since Larian has no wish to make a DLC, we should be able to kill Mizora to give Wyll some closure. I always thought, that they were planning to making her a plot point in a DLC or so, together with fixing Karlachs heart, but since that is out the window, it would be nice to get rid of the second pescy cambion in our lifes. I can't see Mizoras fight being as entertaining as Raphaels, but still.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

Doctor Who
Joined: Dec 2020
fylimar Offline OP
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
I want to bump this thread again in the hopes, that this can still be addressed.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

Doctor Who
Joined: Nov 2024
Volunteer Moderator
Offline
Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Nov 2024
Originally Posted by fylimar
I want to bump this thread again in the hopes, that this can still be addressed.

Hi there! Please refrain from "bumping" threads, it is against the rules.
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=boardrules&v=1

Joined: Aug 2023
P
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
P
Joined: Aug 2023
If I want to add to this discussion rather than starting a new thread, that does not count as "bumping" right?

I also think Wyll needs a lot more agency added to him. The other origins have a lot of situations where they act entirely on their own motivations. They may leave if the player seriously disrepsects or breaks their trust, they require persuasion or a high level of trust to be steered towards different choices. The only point where Wyll follows his own agenda is if you raid the grove, and that is early in the plot that it doesn't create the same tense and impactful moment as in act 2 or 3 when it feels like a true bond or connection is being tested.

Wyll is set up as the perfect opponent to a player that plans to use or give up the crown for evil purposes. Clashing with them about their decision and even going as far as going behind their back to overthrow their plans in the end. The Blade of Frontiers seeing themselves as the one who has to make the hard choices and sacrifices when no one else will.

Joined: Nov 2023
A
old hand
Offline
old hand
A
Joined: Nov 2023
Talking about Wyll's agenda, I was recently reminded how odd I find his lack of one in Moonrise. You can chat with him about where his father might be kept, which is fine, but it is never elaborated on further. The same goes for "Zariel's asset" which should also hold some importance for Wyll.

I am mentioning this not just as a "Wyll needs more content" example but because the lack of dialogue can cause some unnecessary (and I assume unintentional) gameplay frustration. I for my part stalled quite a bit before going down into the colony on my first play-through because I had not found the asset yet, which is a life-or-eternal-damnation situation for Wyll. When I hopped down the hole, it happened with some frustration and the hope that I had not just missed the asset somewhere upstairs. So it would be nice, if you could talk with Wyll about your progress in his two endeavours (or the lack of it) and get his blessing for passing the point of no return. I mean this must be very stressful for him as well.

Joined: Dec 2020
fylimar Offline OP
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
I agree, his quests feel rushed sometimes and he has a lot less agenda than any of the other origins. While I like his story and premise, he should also decide by himself to break the pact or not, depending on what we talked with him about it. Similar to Gales dilemma for example. The companions for sure act as if he made his own decision.

While Wyll and Karlach have done special dialogues, if you approach the one with the other and in fact talking their problems out on their own, when you just send Wyll to approach Karlach, in other scenes he has a lot less agency.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

Doctor Who
Joined: Dec 2020
fylimar Offline OP
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
I had an interesting discussion with friends and there are some more things, that I think, Wyll is missing.
A lot of characters have trauma due to not being free , yet here is Wyll, still literally being a slave to Mizora and he gets not much to say. Same with his physical changes - he did literally suffer through all torments of hell, which I doubt even Abdirak would find amusing, and his whole body gets changed in the process and he doesn't get a scene around it, just a bit of dialogue, which mostly makes fun of it. Menawhile we have a whole scene with Astarion over his looks and Shadowheart over a changed hair colour. And before those two fangroups jump at me: I don't want to say, take that away, I just think, it's sad, that we literally see, what a companion goes through and there is not a similar moving scene for him afterwards. I know Wyll is the stoic type and shrugs a lot of stuff away, but I think, he just had the worst day imaginable and should have had more than a short comment afterwards. What he experienced, should traumatize everyone.

I just put it out here in case, there is the slightest of chances, there might be something to be done about it.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

Doctor Who
Joined: Nov 2023
A
old hand
Offline
old hand
A
Joined: Nov 2023
That would even be a good topic for banter between him and Karlach. For two characters who have their stories linked to each other so tightly, they have surprisingly little to say to each other - and being modified against their will is an experience the both share.

Joined: Dec 2020
fylimar Offline OP
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
Originally Posted by Anska
That would even be a good topic for banter between him and Karlach. For two characters who have their stories linked to each other so tightly, they have surprisingly little to say to each other - and being modified against their will is an experience the both share.

That is true. They have a unique feature, that if you talk to Karlach as Wyll or vice versa, they have unique banter with each other, but I still think, they are pretty much get glossed over over their experiences.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

Doctor Who
Joined: Feb 2024
S
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
S
Joined: Feb 2024
Originally Posted by fylimar
I had an interesting discussion with friends and there are some more things, that I think, Wyll is missing.
A lot of characters have trauma due to not being free , yet here is Wyll, still literally being a slave to Mizora and he gets not much to say. Same with his physical changes - he did literally suffer through all torments of hell, which I doubt even Abdirak would find amusing, and his whole body gets changed in the process and he doesn't get a scene around it, just a bit of dialogue, which mostly makes fun of it. Menawhile we have a whole scene with Astarion over his looks and Shadowheart over a changed hair colour. And before those two fangroups jump at me: I don't want to say, take that away, I just think, it's sad, that we literally see, what a companion goes through and there is not a similar moving scene for him afterwards. I know Wyll is the stoic type and shrugs a lot of stuff away, but I think, he just had the worst day imaginable and should have had more than a short comment afterwards. What he experienced, should traumatize everyone.

I just put it out here in case, there is the slightest of chances, there might be something to be done about it.
I'm glad you brought up him going through the torments of the hells. "Wyll burns in the fires of Avernus; the lightning storms of Dis strike his flesh. His soul passes through each layer of the Hells, gaining their essence - and their torment."

People really downplay what Mizora puts him through. She doesn't just permanently change his body against his will, she physically tortures him. You're right, he really needed a scene or 2 more where he gets to talk about his feelings.

Joined: Dec 2020
fylimar Offline OP
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
Originally Posted by SteelTempest
Originally Posted by fylimar
I had an interesting discussion with friends and there are some more things, that I think, Wyll is missing.
A lot of characters have trauma due to not being free , yet here is Wyll, still literally being a slave to Mizora and he gets not much to say. Same with his physical changes - he did literally suffer through all torments of hell, which I doubt even Abdirak would find amusing, and his whole body gets changed in the process and he doesn't get a scene around it, just a bit of dialogue, which mostly makes fun of it. Menawhile we have a whole scene with Astarion over his looks and Shadowheart over a changed hair colour. And before those two fangroups jump at me: I don't want to say, take that away, I just think, it's sad, that we literally see, what a companion goes through and there is not a similar moving scene for him afterwards. I know Wyll is the stoic type and shrugs a lot of stuff away, but I think, he just had the worst day imaginable and should have had more than a short comment afterwards. What he experienced, should traumatize everyone.

I just put it out here in case, there is the slightest of chances, there might be something to be done about it.
I'm glad you brought up him going through the torments of the hells. "Wyll burns in the fires of Avernus; the lightning storms of Dis strike his flesh. His soul passes through each layer of the Hells, gaining their essence - and their torment."

People really downplay what Mizora puts him through. She doesn't just permanently change his body against his will, she physically tortures him. You're right, he really needed a scene or 2 more where he gets to talk about his feelings.

Exactly, I think in terms of torment and horrible experience there is not much worse than going through all the torments of hell. It is implied, that it was a moment for us, but Wyll really felt it for like an eternity, so yeah, everyone gets their trauma moment, so he should too. Even Karlach had her meltdown after killing Gortash (one of the best acted scenes in the game for me), but not Wyll.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

Doctor Who
Joined: Nov 2023
A
old hand
Offline
old hand
A
Joined: Nov 2023
It's probably what he talks about with Lae'zel when she is trying to make a conquest for the evening ... I am jesting. I wish the tiefling party conversation with him was a little deeper if you save Karlach too, but I probably already wrote somewhere in this thread how much I like the chat you can have with him, if he follows Mizora's orders. It's a bit of a shame that we never get to explore what having defied Mizora and feeling the consequences - trauma aside - means for him. Wyll, similar to Astarion and Gale, has this thing going on that he on some level thinks he needs the warlock powers to get things done, even though they conflict with his ideals - and it just annoys me how much this theme gets buried if you keep Karlach around.

Edit: What I mean is - and please correct me if I missed something - if you have Karlach around you are suggesting to him that he needs to get out of his contract, but he never has a "this arrangement isn't working for me anymore" moment, does he?

Last edited by Anska; 09/02/25 07:56 PM.
Joined: Dec 2020
fylimar Offline OP
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
Originally Posted by Anska
It's probably what he talks about with Lae'zel when she is trying to make a conquest for the evening ... I am jesting. I wish the tiefling party conversation with him was a little deeper if you save Karlach too, but I probably already wrote somewhere in this thread how much I like the chat you can have with him, if he follows Mizora's orders. It's a bit of a shame that we never get to explore what having defied Mizora and feeling the consequences - trauma aside - means for him. Wyll, similar to Astarion and Gale, has this thing going on that he on some level thinks he needs the warlock powers to get things done, even though they conflict with his ideals - and it just annoys me how much this theme gets buried if you keep Karlach around.

Edit: What I mean is - and please correct me if I missed something - if you have Karlach around you are suggesting to him that he needs to get out of his contract, but he never has a "this arrangement isn't working for me anymore" moment, does he?

He is weary of Mizora and mad that she tricked him into going after an innocent and he wants to get out of the pact, but he doesn't talk in length about it. He is a bit melancholic, but nowhere where he should be given, what he went through.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

Doctor Who
Joined: Mar 2024
T
member
Offline
member
T
Joined: Mar 2024
Originally Posted by SteelTempest
Originally Posted by fylimar
I had an interesting discussion with friends and there are some more things, that I think, Wyll is missing.
A lot of characters have trauma due to not being free , yet here is Wyll, still literally being a slave to Mizora and he gets not much to say. Same with his physical changes - he did literally suffer through all torments of hell, which I doubt even Abdirak would find amusing, and his whole body gets changed in the process and he doesn't get a scene around it, just a bit of dialogue, which mostly makes fun of it. Menawhile we have a whole scene with Astarion over his looks and Shadowheart over a changed hair colour. And before those two fangroups jump at me: I don't want to say, take that away, I just think, it's sad, that we literally see, what a companion goes through and there is not a similar moving scene for him afterwards. I know Wyll is the stoic type and shrugs a lot of stuff away, but I think, he just had the worst day imaginable and should have had more than a short comment afterwards. What he experienced, should traumatize everyone.

I just put it out here in case, there is the slightest of chances, there might be something to be done about it.
I'm glad you brought up him going through the torments of the hells. "Wyll burns in the fires of Avernus; the lightning storms of Dis strike his flesh. His soul passes through each layer of the Hells, gaining their essence - and their torment."

People really downplay what Mizora puts him through. She doesn't just permanently change his body against his will, she physically tortures him. You're right, he really needed a scene or 2 more where he gets to talk about his feelings.

I never thought about how little is said about Wyll's disfigurement, possibly because it happened before I really got to know him. It is pretty much just people blaming him for it, isn't it?
I noticed Shadowheart's divine favour one-off spell (or whatever it's called). I never used that, so in my head she prayed to Selûne to have Wyll put back at the end of the campaign

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Online Embarrased
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
I admit that i didnt really read the topic ...
So sory, if anyone allready pointed this out, or provided some proof that im wrong.

But honestly i cant help but feel like no companion made any own decision whatsoever ...
They are allways (cleverly hidden i give Larian that) just reflection of our Tav. frown

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 10/02/25 01:32 AM.

I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. frown
Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are! frown
Joined: Nov 2023
A
old hand
Offline
old hand
A
Joined: Nov 2023
The player is of course the only one who has real agency in the game and the game and it's characters react to the player's actions, so you can look up guides to plan out your companions' reactions. Taken to the extreme, you can save-scum, reload or use mods to alter the world to your liking.

This here is more about that the other companions have an opinion on how their story is supposed to play out, a set path which they favour unless your interactions with them sway them from it or confirm their believes. For example you can get an accidental God-Gale/ Dead Gale if you did not notice that you pushed him too much towards ambition or didn't do anything about his quest at all, or Shadowheart might not save her parents because you haven't restored enough of her memories. In Wyll's case you can't just say "You do you" when he has to make a choice about whether to break his pact with Mizora, you have to make the decision for him and he is ok with either. It is not even framed as an impossible choice he can't make on his own through conversation, it's just casually slipped into the scene.

Joined: Dec 2020
fylimar Offline OP
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
Originally Posted by Trantion
Originally Posted by SteelTempest
Originally Posted by fylimar
I had an interesting discussion with friends and there are some more things, that I think, Wyll is missing.
A lot of characters have trauma due to not being free , yet here is Wyll, still literally being a slave to Mizora and he gets not much to say. Same with his physical changes - he did literally suffer through all torments of hell, which I doubt even Abdirak would find amusing, and his whole body gets changed in the process and he doesn't get a scene around it, just a bit of dialogue, which mostly makes fun of it. Menawhile we have a whole scene with Astarion over his looks and Shadowheart over a changed hair colour. And before those two fangroups jump at me: I don't want to say, take that away, I just think, it's sad, that we literally see, what a companion goes through and there is not a similar moving scene for him afterwards. I know Wyll is the stoic type and shrugs a lot of stuff away, but I think, he just had the worst day imaginable and should have had more than a short comment afterwards. What he experienced, should traumatize everyone.

I just put it out here in case, there is the slightest of chances, there might be something to be done about it.
I'm glad you brought up him going through the torments of the hells. "Wyll burns in the fires of Avernus; the lightning storms of Dis strike his flesh. His soul passes through each layer of the Hells, gaining their essence - and their torment."

People really downplay what Mizora puts him through. She doesn't just permanently change his body against his will, she physically tortures him. You're right, he really needed a scene or 2 more where he gets to talk about his feelings.

I never thought about how little is said about Wyll's disfigurement, possibly because it happened before I really got to know him. It is pretty much just people blaming him for it, isn't it?
I noticed Shadowheart's divine favour one-off spell (or whatever it's called). I never used that, so in my head she prayed to Selûne to have Wyll put back at the end of the campaign

Shadowheart comments that she find him dashing with the horns. I wouldn't call it disfirgurment, but it was a change, he didn't agree too, so a violation.
I think, Mizora mentioned, that the physical changes can't be undone, so I don't think, a Divine Intervention can help. Maybe a True Ressurection. But that spell is not really in the game. I firt thought, Gales revival protocol would be TR, but then he might not have the Netherese Orb - or that too was to powerful to just heal away.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

Doctor Who
Page 5 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5