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Re: Remove Height and Backstab as Sources of Advantage/Disadvantage [Re: etonbears] #734763
15/11/20 06:21 PM
15/11/20 06:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,856
Stabbey Offline
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Stabbey  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,856
Originally Posted by etonbears
The purpose of EA is largely for them to experiment to see what works and what doesn't in the context of the video game they are making. If you wan't to convince them to make changes, you'll have a better chance by showing how particular game experiences would be improved, rather than engaging in statistical analysis of a ruleset that doesn't actually cover all the elements of their game.


That's how this thread started out - by pointing out that Larian's "simple change" breaks a ton of features and spells in the game. When you break a ton of features and spells, that makes the game experience worse because there are fewer options which are effective for combat. Fewer options leads to repetitive, boring gameplay.

The same goes for many of their other changes: the changes to increase HP and lower AC have made Attack Rolls better, but things which require saving throws are relatively worse because enemy saving throws remain the same. Spells which target HP and AoE spells are also relatively worse, because they are less effective due to higher HP and unchanged enemy saving throws. That reduces the options effective for combat, which leads to repetitive, boring gameplay.

It's the same thing with many other changes they've made - they lead to more repetitive gameplay than there would be without the change.

Don't use the "you just want a totally RAW experience" strawman. You won't find many people who are demanding a 1:1 completely pure no rules tweaked at all in any way game mode. That's just false and shows you are not paying any attention to the actual arguments.

Larian might have changed things which in their opinion did not make for a good videogame. But a lot of their changes are objectively making for a worse videogame, because their changes have reduced the number of options which are effective, compared to the tabletop game. This is NOT a case of the rules being too difficult to translate to a videogame.

Last edited by Stabbey; 16/11/20 05:44 AM.
Re: Remove Height and Backstab as Sources of Advantage/Disadvantage [Re: Leuenherz] #734886
16/11/20 01:24 AM
16/11/20 01:24 AM
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 231
Isaac Springsong Offline OP
enthusiast
Isaac Springsong  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 231
Originally Posted by Leuenherz
The truth is somewhere between what Isaac and SacredWitness are trying to argue. Advantage does not always grant the same bonus, true. But it remains significant pretty much always because bounded accuracy ensures that the target roll on the d20 stays around the middle third or so of the bell curve in the vast majority of situations. This is especially true for the low level content that BG3 features so prominently.

Regardless, as pointed out in the OP, easily accessible advantage devalues too many class features. Larian can choose to change or replace them of course, but that's ultimately creating more work for themselves and also too many potential balance issues from further homebrew.

The solution, as has been pointed out multiple times on these boards, is pretty easy. Because 5e hasn't actually done away with all flat modifiers to rolls (see: cover system, which is currently missing from the game). All Larian has to do is replace the adv/disadv on height with flat modifiers akin to that subsystem.


+12

Re: Remove Height and Backstab as Sources of Advantage/Disadvantage [Re: Isaac Springsong] #734964
16/11/20 06:22 AM
16/11/20 06:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 37
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DarkRob316 Offline
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DarkRob316  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 37
I'm not a D&D expert by any means, but I read the OP's first post and it does correspond with alot of what I'm seeing in the game. I've got about 200 hours logged in this game so far, and the high ground is the single most powerful strategy in the game.

And it's everywhere. From the moment you encounter the hill outside the Druid Grove and snipe the goblins relentlessly below, to the rooftops of the blighted village, the high ridge in the eastern part of the goblin camp, and the ramparts outside Dror Ragzlins throne room, there is no encounter I've yet found that doesn't yield this overwhelming advantage.

Fights that your party could never win in a straight up fight are made trivial by the high ground.
I have neither the experience or expertise in 5e D&D rules to speak on possible solutions to this issue in an educated manner, and I don't intend to try.

But I do recognize overwhelming strategic advantage when I see it, and in this game the high ground is it.

The OP is right.

Last edited by DarkRob316; 16/11/20 06:23 AM.
Re: Remove Height and Backstab as Sources of Advantage/Disadvantage [Re: Isaac Springsong] #735581
17/11/20 03:20 PM
17/11/20 03:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 2
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darkcharl Offline
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darkcharl  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 2
Excellent write up! Totally support the statement here!

Re: Remove Height and Backstab as Sources of Advantage/Disadvantage [Re: Isaac Springsong] #735944
18/11/20 02:24 PM
18/11/20 02:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 16
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jmos Offline
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jmos  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 16
Agree - the high ground and backstab mechanic as implemented is too powerful. Maybe a +1 or +2, but it shouldn't be full advantage.

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