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Re: skill check dice rolls, a really shit idea. [Re: KillerRabbit] #736567
19/11/20 10:11 PM
19/11/20 10:11 PM
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Bossk_Hogg Online content
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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
. It's hard to avoid killing Nettie without metagaming.


Getting to pass 3 checks to save yourself from overlooking some major red flags is pretty generous IMO. Nettie cant even heal a fucking bird, so not sure why people would think she could deal with the tadpole. There's a dead drow that she says was infected, so not a great patient recovery rate. Her demeanor changes and she's very obviously hiding something and if you bother to ask questions on the cure her rather than letting some random stranger stab you with a branch you will catch on that something is up. Gygax would have killed Tav with no saving throw allowed lol.

Also if you fail your check you can make the cure yourself in the cauldron with herbs you picked up.

Re: skill check dice rolls, a really shit idea (turned savescumming into a core game mechanic) [Re: Lightzy] #736595
19/11/20 11:05 PM
19/11/20 11:05 PM
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1varangian Offline
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I'm afraid Larian's solution for this will be the loaded dice Swen mentioned.

But the swingy d20 is only one part of the problem. And it's not about succeeding every check to begin with. Loaded dice would let everyone succeed more while the actual problem remains the same.

The actual problem is that if I make an intelligent and highly charismatic character with a Criminal background and put every point into Deception I possibly can, I expect this character to be very deceptive and manipulative. But they are not. That amounts to a +5 modifier to any checks which is a 25%. It's simply not significant enough. Someone who put nothing into Deception or Charisma can beat me at my own game. And with loaded dice it could actually get even worse.

It's Larian's own fault how they design these checks, really. They could open up passive Deceptive dialogue options at +1, +2, +3, +4 , +5.. and only make you roll d20 if you are under pressure or in some extreme situation. Or they could make the consequences of a failed roll much less severe for skilled characters.

Somehow the difference between 0 and +5 has to be much more significant than a 25% difference in success rate. Especially for a specialized skill like Arcana or History, that should require proficiency to even be allowed to roll in the first place. An uneducated Barbarian with 8 Int will not remember details of the Netherese hierarchy structure, natural 20 or not.

I think Larian need to rethink how skills work in BG3. Bring thresholds into the mix to make skill levels more impactful. And be very careful where to use the d20 rolls.

Re: skill check dice rolls, a really shit idea. [Re: 1varangian] #736644
20/11/20 01:41 AM
20/11/20 01:41 AM
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Firesnakearies Offline
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Originally Posted by 1varangian


The point is, using a swingy d20 with only minor modifiers even for "skilled" characters completely undermines character building.

It's not about failing. It's about the check results being too random and too little influenced by character skill.

2d10 or 3d6 would create bell curve results which is the cool thing dice CAN do over flat percentages. But D&D is stuck on using the "iconic" d20.

If they insist on using 1d20, the skill modifiers need to be twice as significant as they are now.



Thissssssssssssssssss.

+9999

Re: skill check dice rolls, a really shit idea. [Re: Firesnakearies] #736868
20/11/20 03:30 PM
20/11/20 03:30 PM
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Zefhyr Offline
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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by 1varangian


The point is, using a swingy d20 with only minor modifiers even for "skilled" characters completely undermines character building.

It's not about failing. It's about the check results being too random and too little influenced by character skill.

2d10 or 3d6 would create bell curve results which is the cool thing dice CAN do over flat percentages. But D&D is stuck on using the "iconic" d20.

If they insist on using 1d20, the skill modifiers need to be twice as significant as they are now.



Thissssssssssssssssss.

+9999


+1

Re: skill check dice rolls, a really shit idea. [Re: Lightzy] #736898
20/11/20 04:45 PM
20/11/20 04:45 PM
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Shepherd81 Offline
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It was a shit idea and Larian already acknowledged the feedback and is aware of many people not liking it. But they are a bit stubborn, they will let it in the game and maybe add an option to disable it or change it to a different system.
Thats at least something.

Re: skill check dice rolls, a really shit idea. [Re: Shepherd81] #736918
20/11/20 05:31 PM
20/11/20 05:31 PM
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1varangian Offline
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Originally Posted by Shepherd81
It was a shit idea and Larian already acknowledged the feedback and is aware of many people not liking it. But they are a bit stubborn, they will let it in the game and maybe add an option to disable it or change it to a different system.
Thats at least something.

Swen mentioned loaded dice.

Basically meaning everyone would succeed more regardless of character skill. A horrible fix for a bad system that makes it even worse.

We don't want to succeed every check, we want our character builds to matter. If skilless characters succeed with loaded dice, our character builds do not matter.

Re: skill check dice rolls, a really shit idea. [Re: Firesnakearies] #736981
20/11/20 08:05 PM
20/11/20 08:05 PM
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Bossk_Hogg Online content
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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by 1varangian


The point is, using a swingy d20 with only minor modifiers even for "skilled" characters completely undermines character building.

It's not about failing. It's about the check results being too random and too little influenced by character skill.

2d10 or 3d6 would create bell curve results which is the cool thing dice CAN do over flat percentages. But D&D is stuck on using the "iconic" d20.

If they insist on using 1d20, the skill modifiers need to be twice as significant as they are now.



Thissssssssssssssssss.

+9999

Or simply lower the DC's. 10 is the standard per the D&D rules, which results in a 20% failure rate for those with a 16 stat and proficiency. People who cant stand any chance of failure can install the inevitable mod.

Incidentally, it doesn't appear as though spells like friends, charm person, etc do anything.

Lets fix those, and the clearly bugged dice rolls (average result of of 5 on a d20!) before throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Re: skill check dice rolls, a really shit idea. [Re: 1varangian] #736983
20/11/20 08:06 PM
20/11/20 08:06 PM
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Posts: 114
Bossk_Hogg Online content
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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Shepherd81
It was a shit idea and Larian already acknowledged the feedback and is aware of many people not liking it. But they are a bit stubborn, they will let it in the game and maybe add an option to disable it or change it to a different system.
Thats at least something.

Swen mentioned loaded dice.

Basically meaning everyone would succeed more regardless of character skill. A horrible fix for a bad system that makes it even worse.

We don't want to succeed every check, we want our character builds to matter. If skilless characters succeed with loaded dice, our character builds do not matter.


Oh, the dice are loaded... against the players. Track your rolls, the average is god awful.

Re: skill check dice rolls, a really shit idea. [Re: 1varangian] #736989
20/11/20 08:18 PM
20/11/20 08:18 PM
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KillerRabbit Offline
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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Shepherd81
It was a shit idea and Larian already acknowledged the feedback and is aware of many people not liking it. But they are a bit stubborn, they will let it in the game and maybe add an option to disable it or change it to a different system.
Thats at least something.

Swen mentioned loaded dice.

Basically meaning everyone would succeed more regardless of character skill. A horrible fix for a bad system that makes it even worse.

We don't want to succeed every check, we want our character builds to matter. If skilless characters succeed with loaded dice, our character builds do not matter.


I'm with you on the second point but to be fair he also said that the unaltered dice always be an option in the game. Which is how I will play.

BG2 had loaded dice for PCs who rolled for hit points -- if you got two bad rolls in a row you would get a good roll on the third level up. This prevented people from walking around with a high level mage with 10 hp because of some unlucky rolls.

Re: skill check dice rolls, a really shit idea. [Re: Bossk_Hogg] #736998
20/11/20 08:27 PM
20/11/20 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg

Oh, the dice are loaded... against the players. Track your rolls, the average is god awful.


Nonsense.

Re: skill check dice rolls, a really shit idea. [Re: Lightzy] #737028
20/11/20 09:26 PM
20/11/20 09:26 PM
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fallenj Offline
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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by 1varangian
These checks are the biggest flaw in 5e imo and I hope the next edition fixes this.


Actually it would be more like d&d as a whole is the biggest flaw, ability checks and skill checks have been in the game for each version as far as I can recall. But I've only played 3.5 & 4. Maybe you can surprise me and prove me wrong...Ability checks and skill checks lead to one thing people don't like, Failing. That's why the guy before you was so supportive to say the game leads to save scumming being a requirement. When you play a game and you don't get your way, what do you do? People need that perfect play, probably goes well with the perfect barbie doll they dressed up as there character.

I've failed perception checks, bluff checks, diplomacy, and so on. What happens next? you move on, lady luck wasn't with you that day. There's no dm to make you feel better or cave when he/she feels sorry for you.

Rolling isn't perfect, it is a game after all, but rolls for ability checks and skills has always been in d&d.

There's rolling and then there's rolling.

The point is, using a swingy d20 with only minor modifiers even for "skilled" characters completely undermines character building.

It's not about failing. It's about the check results being too random and too little influenced by character skill.

2d10 or 3d6 would create bell curve results which is the cool thing dice CAN do over flat percentages. But D&D is stuck on using the "iconic" d20.

If they insist on using 1d20, the skill modifiers need to be twice as significant as they are now.


Oh I missed this reply, my bad. So your saying the D20 is not being influenced enough for rolls to matter. If anything this would be a complaint about 5e or BG3, so lets break down social skills for this edition, start with a level one character.

BG3:
Based off BG3 you can't get any better than a 17 for ability score (doesn't matter if you have a +2, +1, or nothing), so ability modifier is going to be +3. There is no skill points in this edition only proficiency which can be gained via background, racial, or class. At level one for proficiency is a +2, generally any race/class can achieve this +5 right from character creation.

Leveling up you gain +1 ability score at: 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th. Proficiency goes up by one at: 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th.

level 1: Ability Mod:+3 Pro: +2 = +5
level 10: Ability Mod: +4 Pro: +4 = +8
level 20: Ability Mod: +6 Pro: +6 = +12

Social skill challenges don't normally go up, so the higher level you go the better you get at said skill. This also doesn't include spells or potions that can give you the upper hand at skill checks.

Now normally in a d&d game you don't cap at 17 so the ability mod for racials actually comes more into effect giving possibly a 18 or 20 ability score. Class features seem to be missing, off the freebe pdf you can get from d&d beyond rogues get a expertise feature at level one. Which doubles skill proficiencies for 2 skills or 1 skill plus thieves tools.

Probably more junk I'm missing but I hit my limit on researching. Over all you have a problem with BG3 and how they implemented the 5e rules, 5e rules period, or just d&d all together. I'd recommend go finding another game if you don't like the d20 system in d&d.

Edit* Oh I did forget about inspiration points where you can spend a point to give yourself advantage in a skill check.

Edit2* Digging through the PDF and looks like 5e does cap your ability scores at 17 at least for point buy (racial mods included) rolls still can be 18s, interesting

Last edited by fallenj; 20/11/20 09:53 PM.
Re: skill check dice rolls, a really shit idea. [Re: Lightzy] #737287
21/11/20 04:09 AM
21/11/20 04:09 AM
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urktheturtle Offline
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This is why I thikn there needs to be an optional rule (one that can be turned off) to roll lock, locking rolles for all skill checks permanently in that profile for that character, so when you reload its always that same number.

Re: skill check dice rolls, a really shit idea. [Re: Lightzy] #737346
21/11/20 11:17 AM
21/11/20 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Lightzy
I can prove it to you.

1) In your statistical analysis, check how many times players reloaded just after a failed roll.
I guarantee you will see that a significant portion of people's playtime is spent in the load-save screen, concentrated wherever you have a skill check roll.
Also publish this information if you got balls.

2) In forum discussions about certain encounters and quests, people often give advice on how to get the best roll chances in order to have to load-save the least amount of times.

3) YOU, LARIAN, had to put out an official message asking people to please not reload constantly and to "let failure happen".
And of course, that doesn't work. That's not how human nature works. Definitely not gamer human nature.


So my advice is, trash that whole system. It works for tabletop, but not here.
Use the (much better) skill-threshold system from D:OS, where if you cross a certain threshold of ability-score/class/race/proficiency/item in party inventory/prepared spells and cantrips and abilities/etc or a combination thereof, you automatically pass the check.





Totaly agree, nothing more to say.

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