Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 5 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: OneManArmy] #724418
31/10/20 09:50 PM
31/10/20 09:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 593
KillerRabbit Offline
addict
KillerRabbit  Offline
addict

Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 593
@abits, narrowly on this point:

[I assume it's a mistake because your character doesn't even know the tower exist by that point in the game regardless of your allies]


If your character is a drow the guards right before the grand hall with priestess gut will ask if you are one of those moonrise types and make it clear that the moonrise 'types' usually only deal with higher ups. Then if you get near the floating eye and then eavesdrop on the goblins before the worg pens they will complain about the eye reporting everything to moonrise and wondering why the uppity drow need to be checking in on you. So with a drow PC you can make a no conflict beeline to Minthara, find out that the real bosses are at moonrise and that Minthara is key to getting you in there.

Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: OneManArmy] #724559
01/11/20 02:09 AM
01/11/20 02:09 AM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 72
W
whalesecrets Offline
journeyman
whalesecrets  Offline
journeyman
W

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 72
I agree, even if a character doesn't wanto to choose the evil path I feel like it needs a little better motivation. Kill all the druids because the absolute says so technically works, but it feels hollow.
Even kill all the druid because they are delicious would be better, I feel like the enemy needs a more relatable motivation.
The absolute could still be involved, with promises of wealth and power, or by framing the druids as "the real bad guys, not us" but something a little more convincing.

Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: OneManArmy] #725291
01/11/20 07:39 PM
01/11/20 07:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 35
TimVanBeek Offline
apprentice
TimVanBeek  Offline
apprentice

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 35
Originally Posted by OneManArmy

The player is never told, even in the voice of the narrator, that the Absolute can be a solution, that there is some logic in taking the side of Minthara. Add either an explanation or the voice of the narrator, now it is completely incomprehensible why a player with a tadpole problem in his head should kill druids who have an understandable solution. The game does not give any reasons, no hints that we can make such a decision and it may be interesting and useful to us.


Yes, that is IMHO the main problem with the story right now. As a drow, you can basically walk up to Minthara and are told "kill everybody in the grove", without any hint at why Minthara is interested in this, and no hint at possible rewards for the MC for doing this. It does not seem to be hard to fix this, though. Compare this to the good path, where Halsin is pointed out as a healer who could possibly help with the tadpole situation. Simply insert somewhere that Minthara as a priestess could help you, too (she could simply say this herself). Halsin wants you to save the refugees by destroying the goblins first. Minthara wants you to destroy the grove first, because <insert reason here>: Prove your devotion to the absolute? Establish a local stronghold? Maybe the druids possess something important? And why kill random Tiefling refugees? Is it important to instill fear for the glory of the Absolute? Or, better, is she looking for a specific Tiefling for a specific reason?

(Also, I thought back in the days that the deviant art sex movies in ME were silly. I feel the same way here.)

Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: OneManArmy] #725417
01/11/20 09:58 PM
01/11/20 09:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 632
OneManArmy Offline OP
addict
OneManArmy  Offline OP
addict

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 632
Regarding the "equipment of the Absolute" which only work if we are branded by the absolute, it is so unclear that I learned about it only from a post on the forum. Why can't we buy them or receive a reward for our wonderful quest, but have to get them from the corpses of cultists? Why doesn't anyone explain this and the meaning of the brand of the Absolute (I avoided the priestess because she really wants to kill us, and Minthara does not give any answers at all), and it looks like an Easter egg again? What the hell is the point in that?

You need to put on yourself the brand of absolute and kill cultists to get the power of the Absolute to fight the Absolute ... who in their right mind would do that?

I thought that since I was helping Minthara, I was already completing the introductory quest to join the Absolute, and this is just a brand for goblins - not for leaders. Will this be a reason to show statistics that 1% of the players inflicted the stigma?

Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: OneManArmy] #726782
03/11/20 09:46 AM
03/11/20 09:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15
F
feedback_wizard Offline
stranger
feedback_wizard  Offline
stranger
F

Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15
Wonderful feedback. I fully agree. The evil playthrough lacks depth and most of all it lacks good rewards and an incentive. How about we meet the True Soul before visiting the grove and they promise us power and how to make use of our new powers? That would give you an incentive to side with the goblins.

When I played through EA, I only got the information that there is a possibility about raiding the grove after I was on my way to kill the goblin leaders. After I spoke to Draw Ragzlin in the Mindflayer ritual. That was when I first got a quest to raid the grove. However, this Quest should be added to the journal much earlier. Like I said, meet Mintharra or another True Soul earlier and have a promise of power.

The goblin leaders and Mintharra carry powerful magic items. If you decide to side with them, you end up killing Priestress Gut because you trust her to cure you (which she doesn't do). But you do not get Mintharras items and you do not get Ragzlins items. Instead, you just get worthless junk from refugees aswell as some trader inventory.

I suggest that the Goblin leaders should grant you their powerful articats for your service after raiding the grove. And mintharra should grant you her items aswell. After all they cannot successfully raid the grove without your help.

The whole "goblins turn against you" also makes little sense, and combined with the fact that you gain no strong items makes this playthrough feel terribly dissapointing. Just a day before, there were cowering in fear. You are a True Soul like the others, why should they trust someone else over you?

If I play evil, I expect to gain servants, followers, slaves who I rule over by fear. If you play a good guy, you gain followers who have similar goals and follow you because they trust you. This is how it works in Knights of the Old Republic for example. Playing evil still means you have loyal companions, but they are loyal because they fear you or because you made them devoted servants.

The evil path in this game offers nothing like this. Instead, you end up doing the dirty work by killing some refugees and then you get betrayed. This makes the player feel stupid. Especially since I went out of my way to actively pursue "evil" choices in dialogue. As OP and me explained, there needs to be an actual incentive to side with the Goblins, which there is not.


Also the Brand needs to be more clear. The player needs to learn that the powerful artifacts require the brand. And the fact that your character is branded should show up as a tag in the character sheet. There should be a choice to have your companions become branded aswell.

Another problem is the fact that your companions constantly dissaprove if you do anything for the Absolute. Everyone of my companions hated it. Even Astarion.

I will give a very nice example of how to salvage this poorly written playthrough, from a user on reddit:

[Making the Evil path feel more rewarding, by reddit user u/Crashen17]

Yeah, the main issue with an evil run is motivation. There isn't really any reason to side with the goblins besides fucking Minthara. The goblins turn on you if you help them, if you go to Priestess Gut about your worm, she turns on you and tries to kill you. If you talk to Rogzlin and don't pass a pursuasion check the Ilithid outs you and turns against you.

In the end, if you want to be evil, you have to kill men women and children for no reason and for no special personal gain. The gobbos betraying you is both predictable and kind of nonsensical for this particular story. Regular goblins and drow? Yeah makes perfect sense. But goblins and drow united under the Absolute and taking orders from True Souls have no reason to turn on you (a True Soul) who actually butchered an entire druid grove to complete their mission.

A better narrative arc would be to have two true souls at the grove. Have the drow be in the cage alive, and the girl gobbo be a true soul, dead in halsin's lab. When you talk to the imprisoned drow, you connect and he introduces you to the concept of true souls. He promises to take you to the gobbos where they will help you control your powers and grow strong, if you help him escape.

From there you either kill him, leave him, or help him. He meets you outside the Blighted Village and joins the party as a pet (same way Halsin does) and will get you into the camp and past the goblins if you are terrible at social skills or don't want to use the tadpole for some reason. Otherwise things proceed normally and you meet the three leaders. With him returned, Minthara now knows where the druid grove is and sends you to kill Liam the prisoner.

Meanwhile, Priestess Gut wont try to poison you and imprison you. She will promise to help you "harness your True Soul" but only after the Druid Grove is dealt with. If you do, she basically takes the place of Halsin in the story, directing you towards Moonrise Towers.

Next, if you decide to take out the druid grove, you can either lead the goblins right to them and kill everyone, or you can find some way to sneak back to camp and warn the tieflings to leave, possibly extorting them somehow. The druids stay and have to die however. Maybe you can use Liam to send a message to Zevlor and help him escape.

Reasons for giving the tieflings a chance to escape are simple. Either your character doesn't really care about them and removing them from the picture will make razing the grove easier. Or your character wants the goblin's help in controlling the tadpole, but doesn't want to kill a bunch of innocent refugees to do it. The druids so far are pretty shitty so killing them isn't so bad, but the tieflings haven't really wronged you at all.

Or you can just kill everyone.

After the raid, things progress as normal. Priestess Gut inspects you and determines something is different about you (the Tadpole in her head is probably creating a mental blindspot preventing her from realizing you guys have brain worms). She determines that you need to go to Moonrise Towers to speak to so-and-so. Or to present yourself before the Absolute itself. Whatever Larian plans on having there.

She can warn you that because your True Soul is damaged somehow that the Shadow Cursed areas might have unpredictable affects on you, and tell you to ask Minthara how to get there. Minthara can then set you on a path to the Underdark. The goblins then leave, being directed somewhere else. Maybe Minthara joins your camp in place of Halsin, or maybe you just lose that whole narrative thread for being a dick.

Later on, if you gave the tieflings a chance to escape, maybe you find their caravan slaughtered by gnolls bearing the Absolute's mark. Or maybe they make it to Baldur's Gate and have mixed feelings towards you. Maybe only some of them make it to Baldur's Gate and tell you the rest were killed on the road by goblins or drow or gnolls or whatever.

Either way, you still get a good chunk of refugees killed, you just don't necessarily get your hands dirty.

[End]

In my opinion, this is a much more interesting story and it would solve the issue of a lack of an incentive to side with the goblins.

Please remember, playing evil is NOT just murdering everyone mindlessly. Playing evil is ruling by fear, power and authority. Power and authority, exactly what we get to read in our dialogues when we can use our powers. But this is not reflected ingame at all! After raiding the grove we should have gained slaves and servants in our camp. For example those who will bring us items like the Dog does when we speak to them. And of course the rewards are currently garbage. I do not see myself pursuing the path of raiding the grove again even though I want to play evil, because it makes no sense to do so.

If I want the good rewards, I will have to go into the fort after the goblins are hostile and kill them myself. So in the end I end up having to kill both the grove AND the goblins. Thats not what I expect to do. You always have the option to kill everyone anyway. It shouldn't be required just to have an evil playthrough with similar rewards to a good playthrough.

Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: OneManArmy] #726788
03/11/20 09:58 AM
03/11/20 09:58 AM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 475
Netherlands
Vhaldez Offline
addict
Vhaldez  Offline
addict

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 475
Netherlands
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Regarding the "equipment of the Absolute" which only work if we are branded by the absolute, it is so unclear that I learned about it only from a post on the forum. Why can't we buy them or receive a reward for our wonderful quest, but have to get them from the corpses of cultists? Why doesn't anyone explain this and the meaning of the brand of the Absolute (I avoided the priestess because she really wants to kill us, and Minthara does not give any answers at all), and it looks like an Easter egg again? What the hell is the point in that?

You need to put on yourself the brand of absolute and kill cultists to get the power of the Absolute to fight the Absolute ... who in their right mind would do that?

I thought that since I was helping Minthara, I was already completing the introductory quest to join the Absolute, and this is just a brand for goblins - not for leaders. Will this be a reason to show statistics that 1% of the players inflicted the stigma?
The Absolute cult follows the ideology of social Darwinism and automatically assumes that branded cult members who kill other cultists for their weapons earned them by right of conquest.

Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: OneManArmy] #727092
03/11/20 07:48 PM
03/11/20 07:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 632
OneManArmy Offline OP
addict
OneManArmy  Offline OP
addict

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 632
There is one more small moment that I remembered.
In the scene where we need to free Sazza from the cage ... it's so sweet for an evil hero to shield a worthless minion with his body from a crossbow, and get Shadow Heart's approval. This is an act worthy of the drow Lolth! Willingness to sacrifice your life for the life of a goblin.
I think an additional line was needed, like "put your crossbow away, or I'll shove it up your ass, then I'll decide what to do with the goblin." Maybe it would lead to a non-fatal shot at Sazza if the check fails, but it would look more organic.

Personally, I would still choose the option that is currently in the game, but I know that there are people for whom this situation looks strange

By the way, I thought I would be given the opportunity to talk to Zevlor and ask him to release the goblin scout so that she can take us to the goblin leaders (double agent)

Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: OneManArmy] #727269
04/11/20 01:16 AM
04/11/20 01:16 AM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 72
W
whalesecrets Offline
journeyman
whalesecrets  Offline
journeyman
W

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 72
I haven't been able to bring myself to butcher the tiefling kids so have not actually gone evil, but I gotta say it was tempting after the tiefling camp.
Worst .. party .... ever.
Everyone is just standing around drinking by themselves. There are no games, not dancing, no chicken chasing. Nobody even talked to each other, just stood around in the dark, by themselves, drinking responsibly.
It was like being at a goth party.

Saza was right, even their cages are boring.

Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: feedback_wizard] #727480
04/11/20 10:04 AM
04/11/20 10:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 321
RagnarokCzD Offline
enthusiast
RagnarokCzD  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 321
Oh my ... few days i dont check, and this is what you create ... well, im too lazy to read it whole, but there is one thing i just need to react on:
Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
Please remember, playing evil is NOT just murdering everyone mindlessly. Playing evil is ruling by fear, power and authority. Power and authority, exactly what we get to read in our dialogues when we can use our powers. But this is not reflected ingame at all!

This is core of our problem ...
Everyone here seem to be sure that they are the only one who discovered and understanded the "only right way" of being evil, and everyone else is just doing it wrong ... but what if we all are right, just different? laugh

When you look at this game as whole, you can see that Larian took it in best way they could, they just give us options ... and is up to us what character we want to play.
Do you want murdering everyone midlessly? You can.
Do you want to rule by fear, power and autority? I believe you will be able when story will be complete. (i know that you cannot yet, but if you expect to be king of the universe after butchering few refugees that no one cares about .... i gues there is different misstake)


Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: RagnarokCzD] #727586
04/11/20 01:39 PM
04/11/20 01:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15
F
feedback_wizard Offline
stranger
feedback_wizard  Offline
stranger
F

Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15
[quote=RagnarokCzD]Oh my ... few days i dont check, and this is what you create ... well, im too lazy to read it whole, but there is one thing i just need to react on:
Please remember, playing evil is NOT just murdering everyone mindlessly. Playing evil is ruling by fear, power and authority. Power and authority, exactly what we get to read in our dialogues when we can use our powers. But this is not reflected ingame at all![/quote]
This is core of our problem ...
Everyone here seem to be sure that they are the only one who discovered and understanded the "only right way" of being evil, and everyone else is just doing it wrong ... but what if we all are right, just different? :D

When you look at this game as whole, you can see that Larian took it in best way they could, they just give us options ... and is up to us what character we want to play.
Do you want murdering everyone midlessly? You can.
Do you want to rule by fear, power and autority? I believe you will be able when story will be complete. (i know that you cannot yet, but if you expect to be king of the universe after butchering few refugees that no one cares about .... i gues there is different misstake)[/quote]


I posted my own feedback thread and my dissapointment about the evil playthrough aswell, with exactly the same criticism. There is no incentive to side witht the goblins, the player is informed about this possibility too late. Nothing is explained about the brand. How about telling us about the existence of powerful absolute artifacts before we can brand ourselves? We should be able to have our followers branded aswell. And it needs to show up in the character sheet so you can look it up if you open up the game again.

Now I got a similar response like yours: "Right now, it isn't worth it to play evil, but maybe it will later on."

However, there is my biggest point of criticism. Often times, making a deal with an evil person or entity offers you exactly that. Power, fast! Authority! The ability to do things which you were otherwise unable to. Its exactly why Wyll made a pact with a Cambion (even though he only learned about it later). This is exactly what Raphael promises us. An instant cure! WIth unknown drawbacks.

And now you look at how the evil storyline plays out: You butcher a bunch of innocents, you get worthless junk from most of them. The goblin leaders and Mintharra have much stronger magical items but they do not reward you at all with these items, even though they would have been unable to raid the grove without you.
So you get nothing of value, and in the end they even turn against you. This is the exact opposite of what I expect from an evil playthrough.

I was expecting powerful items, slaves, servants at my camp. Since I raided the grove I have 6 dead bodies laying around in my camp aswell as an Altar to the absolute which just sits there and does nothing.

The best rewards by far are from the dream sequences, the powers of the Absolute/Illithid powers. You can pick up another one in the Underdark after an interaction with your Tadpole. I would have expected similar rewards like this by siding with the Goblins.

Last edited by feedback_wizard; 04/11/20 01:41 PM.
Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: OneManArmy] #727594
04/11/20 01:46 PM
04/11/20 01:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 138
frequentic Offline
member
frequentic  Offline
member

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
There is one more small moment that I remembered.
In the scene where we need to free Sazza from the cage ... it's so sweet for an evil hero to shield a worthless minion with his body from a crossbow, and get Shadow Heart's approval. This is an act worthy of the drow Lolth! Willingness to sacrifice your life for the life of a goblin.
I think an additional line was needed, like "put your crossbow away, or I'll shove it up your ass, then I'll decide what to do with the goblin." Maybe it would lead to a non-fatal shot at Sazza if the check fails, but it would look more organic.

Personally, I would still choose the option that is currently in the game, but I know that there are people for whom this situation looks strange

By the way, I thought I would be given the opportunity to talk to Zevlor and ask him to release the goblin scout so that she can take us to the goblin leaders (double agent)


I can agree to some extent but felt that it msotly makes sense. I'm not protecting the goblin necessarily, but protecting an asset I need. I think it works out ok no matter if the intent is evil or altruistic.

Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: feedback_wizard] #727684
04/11/20 04:43 PM
04/11/20 04:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 321
RagnarokCzD Offline
enthusiast
RagnarokCzD  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 321
Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
I posted my own feedback thread and my dissapointment about the evil playthrough aswell, with exactly the same criticism.

I know ... we are talking even there. smile

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
There is no incentive to side witht the goblins, the player is informed about this possibility too late.

I just cant agree less ...
You find out in exactly the perfect time you need to know ... unless you attacked Dror Ragzlin and Gut allready. laugh
But if you talk to them, fiding what they can offer you, exactly as the evil character should have ... you find out about this possibility in best moment, meaning exactly the moment you created it.

True, its not like Minthara have posters of uncle Ragzlin in top hat telling: "I want YOU to plunger druid groove we even dont know about yet!" ...
Question here is: Do you even need them?
After all, you are the one who brings them information about that groove (or Sazza, but you bring Sazza, so it counts the same) ... as reward you are invited to this raid ... and you dont even need to participate.

I see you are a bit confused with the fact that goblins were attacking the gate ... but they was just following those humans, nothing more to see here. smile
It was barely scout patrol, or pursuing group ... certainly not siege, and certainly not raid. smile
If you see the rest of map, you find out there are two little towns, both raided and plundered by goblins (and one raided by Gnolls) ... meaning goblins obviously wish to take whole coast for themselves. And you just pointed to next target. smile

Personaly i more wonder if you can conceal the groove location ...
That would be interesting.

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
Nothing is explained about the brand.

Im not sure what is there to explain ...

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
How about telling us about the existence of powerful absolute artifacts before we can brand ourselves?

Its writen right there in description ...
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Gloves+of+Power

"Blessed by the Priestess Gut, these gauntlets aid any who bear the Absolute's mark upon their flesh - but woe any non-believer who hopes to steal their power."

I admit that i also didnt notice that at first ... but same as many others, it was just my own lazyness to read whole tooltip. laugh

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
We should be able to have our followers branded aswell.

Well ... i agree that there should be some extremely hard persuation diceroll ...
But on the other hand, since most of them disagree with you being market, it also makes sence as it is. :-/

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
And it needs to show up in the character sheet so you can look it up if you open up the game again.

Cant agree more!
There is many things that should be traceable easier ... or at all. This is certainly one of them.

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
Now I got a similar response like yours: "Right now, it isn't worth it to play evil, but maybe it will later on."

I dont recall when i said anything like this. laugh
Cant say its impossible ... but really dont recall. :-/

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
Often times, making a deal with an evil person or entity offers you exactly that. Power, fast! Authority! The ability to do things which you were otherwise unable to. Its exactly why Wyll made a pact with a Cambion (even though he only learned about it later). This is exactly what Raphael promises us. An instant cure! WIth unknown drawbacks.

True ... but lets see the crittical difference here:
God / Evil god / Cambion / Tadpole / Absolute (whatever it its) / Hag ... versus: Common goblin. laugh

See? You compare incompareable ...
What power should Goblins give you, since they dont have even any even for themselves? smile

Even if you are talking about Minthara, wich is litteraly the only person in whole goblin camp that is not just "common goblin" ... what power she have to share? Does she even have some real "powers"? Or is just standing on powerfull post, that is even not big enough to anyone else? laugh
Its just the same with Tieflings, or Druids ... you just pick a side of common mortals, and help them with their strugle ... dont search anything more behind it. smile

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
And now you look at how the evil storyline plays out: You butcher a bunch of innocents, you get worthless junk from most of them.

I dont see much difference from "good" storyline ...
You still butcher bunch of ... maybe not so innocents, but there are also woman, kids, and civilians ... and get worthless junk from most of them.
The only leaders drop something interesting: Minthara, Dror Ragzlin, and Gut ... anything else, is just junk as you say ... copmared to raid on groove, where you get magical items from: Zevlor, Kagha, Arabela's mother (dont remember the name) ...

So where exactly is difference? smile

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
The goblin leaders and Mintharra have much stronger magical items but they do not reward you at all with these items, even though they would have been unable to raid the grove without you.

I dont see any reason why should they ... its their items, your sucess or even survival is not crittical for this raid.
As i said, you dont even need to participate. smile

Did you give Minthara anything to make sure she will be sucesfull? laugh
So why you expect her to do the same?

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
So you get nothing of value, and in the end they even turn against you.

Its in their nature ...
We dont know for sure what is the reason for this ...

But i presume, since Minthara send those tree siblings to search for crash survivors, and kill them ... that she either dont want any competition, and hoped that you will be killed during the raid ... or your tadpole is somehow different, since everyone in goblin camp (read as: everyone who didnt get tadpole on this particular Nautiloid) seem to be unaware that they have parasite in their heads, and therefore you are potential threat to Absolute and "she" wants to kill you.

Wich kinda is even more reason to not give you any weapon ...
You have to understand in this scenario, you are not knight in shiny armor they was hoping and waiting for this whole time ... you are convenient asset that will be used, and get rid off the second you lost your usefullness. wink

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
This is the exact opposite of what I expect from an evil playthrough.

Then you probably have bad expectations. laugh

You seem to be used from other games, to see yourself as alfa predator, on top of food chain ... but so far you are tiny shrimp, that is trying to survive in the sea full of sharks. smile First you need to get there. wink

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
I was expecting powerful items, slaves, servants at my camp.

Well ...
Kinda big expectations for first few hours of gameplay ... i would expect those things much close to the end.

But i can relate ... partialy. smile
I would totally love (as i allready told here, multiple times) to have option to either knock out Tieflings, or have civilians cornered somewhere ... and then have some dialog with Minthara about "what will we do with them" ... personaly i imagine options like:
- Sacrifice them to the Absolute
- Let goblins kill (and possibly eat) them
- Sell them as slaves to Underdark
- Persuation (easy/medium) - Set them free, then send goblins after them
- Persuation (hard) - Set them free, so they can tell the world about power of the Absolute

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
Since I raided the grove I have 6 dead bodies laying around in my camp aswell as an Altar to the absolute which just sits there and does nothing.

True ... and if you kill goblin leaders, you have there one Elf that is repeating the same sentences, and second one dead on beach.
I dont see much difference once aggain. laugh

Originally Posted by feedback_wizard
The best rewards by far are from the dream sequences, the powers of the Absolute/Illithid powers. You can pick up another one in the Underdark after an interaction with your Tadpole. I would have expected similar rewards like this by siding with the Goblins.

That i allready comented. smile


Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: frequentic] #727848
04/11/20 08:26 PM
04/11/20 08:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 632
OneManArmy Offline OP
addict
OneManArmy  Offline OP
addict

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 632
Originally Posted by frequentic
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
There is one more small moment that I remembered.
In the scene where we need to free Sazza from the cage ... it's so sweet for an evil hero to shield a worthless minion with his body from a crossbow, and get Shadow Heart's approval. This is an act worthy of the drow Lolth! Willingness to sacrifice your life for the life of a goblin.
I think an additional line was needed, like "put your crossbow away, or I'll shove it up your ass, then I'll decide what to do with the goblin." Maybe it would lead to a non-fatal shot at Sazza if the check fails, but it would look more organic.

Personally, I would still choose the option that is currently in the game, but I know that there are people for whom this situation looks strange

By the way, I thought I would be given the opportunity to talk to Zevlor and ask him to release the goblin scout so that she can take us to the goblin leaders (double agent)


I can agree to some extent but felt that it msotly makes sense. I'm not protecting the goblin necessarily, but protecting an asset I need. I think it works out ok no matter if the intent is evil or altruistic.


I think this is a good dialogue option for good characters, or neutral ones who can be seduced by an evil root. Drow Lolths In most cases would not cover the goblin with their body, they would immediately start a bullying check

Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: Riandor] #731416
10/11/20 01:54 AM
10/11/20 01:54 AM
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 27
B
Bleeblegum Offline
apprentice
Bleeblegum  Offline
apprentice
B

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Riandor
I’m not sure we needed a separate thread, a lot of this is similar to the “did you like...” one.

That being said I disagree with a lot of the points regarding evil in FR. The Drow for example or the Illithids are per default, evil. Thus it is possible to have an “evil” play through by behaving in an evil manner.



Now after multiple attempts at the EA Act 1 you get a feel for how one could do it, but that again shows a missing narrative hook. Given the game isn’t doing alignment like in ye olden days of AD&D, the game should essentially treat you as neither good nor evil and entice you equally, or yeah, we will all end up playing the “good” story because it is simply the one that makes sense regardless of your morale compass. Again, I can do the grove story and still be a complete arse and murderhobo.



Playing a pure murderhobo and going solo is the only real way siding with the goblins makes sense, they are willing to assault the grove with you whereas you have to infiltrate the goblin camp by yourself. Now tricking Minthara into attacking and then betraying her is another option and I think they just need to change the language behind the whole "good" and "evil" dichotomy and that is why the old alignment system is so great.

In a lot of ways we are more choosing between chaos and lawfulness more so than good and evil also it is narratively impossible to keep a consistent alignment associated with any storyline when there are just so many ways of going about everything. They need to update their idea of what a good and evil playthrough really is before just labeling Grove=good and Goblin camp=evil . Fantasy stories have just gotten too complex for that way of thinking and in a lot of ways the old alignment systems were designed to handle these narrative complexities as they arise in a DMs campaign.

So Larian needs to either fully ditch this alignment labelling of each storyline altogether or bring back the old alignment systems and make companions sensitive to your choices to entice players to choose specific paths for specific party members. Much like we did in BG 1 and 2.

Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: OneManArmy] #731427
10/11/20 03:07 AM
10/11/20 03:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 167
N
N7Greenfire Offline
member
N7Greenfire  Offline
member
N

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 167
Tbh the Goblin path isn't even evil, its just Chaotic/Stupid. A head druid is going to be much more likely to be able to heal you than a crazy Goblin.

Imo the Evil path is rescuing Halsin while exterminating the goblins to the last, not just the leaders. Then extorting the teiflings

Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: OneManArmy] #731442
10/11/20 04:28 AM
10/11/20 04:28 AM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 20
Shad0wScale Offline
stranger
Shad0wScale  Offline
stranger

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 20
Yeah the evil path needs more motivation/reward/reason. Mind you, this is just early access. I expect the full path to have numerous "evil path" as well as good and neutral so it'll be interesting to see how those will work with the story and how we'll you'll be able to roleplay a diverse range of evil characters through those choices.


What is the colour of night? Sanguine, my brothers and sisters.
Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: OneManArmy] #733524
13/11/20 08:39 AM
13/11/20 08:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 5
M
miloment Offline
stranger
miloment  Offline
stranger
M

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
Tbh the Goblin path isn't even evil, its just Chaotic/Stupid. A head druid is going to be much more likely to be able to heal you than a crazy Goblin.

It can be both chaotic and evil, but I'd concede that it is chaotic/stupid primarily. During 50+ hours in multiple partial playthroughs I did not even consider once talking to, much less joining, the goblins and the Absolute. The beginning of the game makes it just so transparently clear (first fight is against goblins; first encounter with Absolute has a tadpole crawling out of someone) that this is a terrible option. And by "terrible" I don't mean evil, just bad/chaotic/leading nowhere. While I'm used to chaotic-evil dialogue options, it's imho very counter-intuitive to have a chaotic-evil quest line.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
You find out in exactly the perfect time you need to know ... unless you attacked Dror Ragzlin and Gut allready. laugh
But if you talk to them, fiding what they can offer you, exactly as the evil character should have ... you find out about this possibility in best moment, meaning exactly the moment you created it.

I think you mean to say "the last possible moment". Why would I just walk up to a ton of very-likely-to-be-enemies to see what they have to tell me? The perfect time to know that a transaction can take place is before entering the metaphorical dragon's lair, when I either find out what they have to offer me or what I have to offer them, whichever comes last.
As others have mentioned it is a fallacy to assume that just because my character is evil and the goblins are too, we friends and I just walk up to them. In my mind they (and especially their mindflayer overlords) were a threat to me as established by the game regardless of my alignment.

Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: OneManArmy] #733555
13/11/20 10:07 AM
13/11/20 10:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 1,080
Abits Offline
old hand
Abits  Offline
old hand

Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 1,080
I think priestess gut storyline has the biggest potential. Firstly, there is a good set up for it. You can learn about her before you reach the camp, and moreover, you learn she is both a healer and has a knowledge of the absolute [incentive]. Other than that, her story has a lot of cool and unique bits (plus one the very few cases in the game where failing a dice roll is more interesting than succeeding). The problem is that it doesn't work in the context of the game. It ends by you killing her and, if you are lucky, no one ever mentions it again (unless you choose to kill all the goblin leaders)

Last edited by Abits; 13/11/20 10:07 AM.

Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: miloment] #733915
13/11/20 10:13 PM
13/11/20 10:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 321
RagnarokCzD Offline
enthusiast
RagnarokCzD  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 321
Originally Posted by miloment
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
You find out in exactly the perfect time you need to know ... unless you attacked Dror Ragzlin and Gut allready. laugh
But if you talk to them, fiding what they can offer you, exactly as the evil character should have ... you find out about this possibility in best moment, meaning exactly the moment you created it.

I think you mean to say "the last possible moment". Why would I just walk up to a ton of very-likely-to-be-enemies to see what they have to tell me? The perfect time to know that a transaction can take place is before entering the metaphorical dragon's lair, when I either find out what they have to offer me or what I have to offer them, whichever comes last.

Certainly not ... first mention of possibility of aliance is in talk with Sazza, in Druid prison, so certainly not "walk up to a ton of very-likely-to-be-enemies" ... but much, much sooner. :-/
Also you can presume they would be "very-likely-to-be-enemies" as you want ... but you cant ignore the fact that no one in camp (yes the gate is different) dont attack you, until you start ... hells, they dont attack you even if you masscre their guards, and those guard during fight will use alarm drum. :-/

What is so "very-likely-to-be-enemies" about that?


Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Re: Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path" [Re: RagnarokCzD] #736813
20/11/20 01:56 PM
20/11/20 01:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 5
M
miloment Offline
stranger
miloment  Offline
stranger
M

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by miloment
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
You find out in exactly the perfect time you need to know ... unless you attacked Dror Ragzlin and Gut allready. laugh
But if you talk to them, fiding what they can offer you, exactly as the evil character should have ... you find out about this possibility in best moment, meaning exactly the moment you created it.

I think you mean to say "the last possible moment". Why would I just walk up to a ton of very-likely-to-be-enemies to see what they have to tell me? The perfect time to know that a transaction can take place is before entering the metaphorical dragon's lair, when I either find out what they have to offer me or what I have to offer them, whichever comes last.

Certainly not ... first mention of possibility of aliance is in talk with Sazza, in Druid prison, so certainly not "walk up to a ton of very-likely-to-be-enemies" ... but much, much sooner. :-/
Also you can presume they would be "very-likely-to-be-enemies" as you want ... but you cant ignore the fact that no one in camp (yes the gate is different) dont attack you, until you start ... hells, they dont attack you even if you masscre their guards, and those guard during fight will use alarm drum. :-/

What is so "very-likely-to-be-enemies" about that?

Sazza is a simple scout who wants to be freed (making her an unreliable source) and offers a way to get into the goblin camp. But I don't remember her saying anything about why I would want to go there other than learning about the Absolute, which in my view the typical evil main character has very little motivation to do. She knows nothing about my abilities nor what the Absolute's plan to attack the grove will yield (arguably nothing noteworthy) or why anyone would be really glad that I freed her (they rightfully don't).
About no one in the camp attacking you: again, you'll only find that out by putting yourself in the position that they could. A priori it is a high risk move with dubious reward. I usually entered the camp with Feather Fall from the North or by sneaking and then
entering the temple through the cracked wall.

By now I did a play-through where I freed Sazza and destroyed the grove. As many others here, I found it disappointing.

Page 5 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2