The stronghold in nwn2 worked because you weren't the only one there. It was also a very active part of the game if you wanted it to be. You went all over the map trying to gather supporters, builders, merchants, lieutenants etc. You also had choices on what you want built. It also had very active events (wandering adventuring group) which gave you unique items. Most of the things you did gave you unique items. The more you upgraded your troops and buildings the easier the fight to defend it was (duh). I don't think this level of interactivity can be achieved if it's only a stretch goal and is not planned from the start. If it can be then great. There is also a very interesting story regarding the stronghold in Pillars of Eternity. Josh Sawyer has said that their experience from the nwn2 stronghold cited that the majority (or at least a very noticeable subset) of players don't actually like strongholds and they made the one in PoE as unobtrusive and pointless as possible on purpose. I can't seem the find the exact quote, but that's pretty much what he said. That was quite an eye opener. Strongholds do tend to grind the game's pace to a halt and I can see where they are coming from. The best and hardest thing to do is to make it so it fits the context of the game. Having it randomly just to have a stronghold doesn't work.

EDIT: I found the quote -
"There are a non-trivial number of players that absolutely loathe strongholds as a concept and never want to interact with stronghold mechanics. It's difficult to make something feel robust and rewarding but also completely optional."

"And if we gated a bunch of quests through the stronghold, there would be complaints about that. It's not really an "everyone wins" decision since some people hate stronghold-gated content. That said, if we had spare area and narrative design resources during development, sure we'd make some stronghold specific content. That was never the case and it still wasn't the case on the expansion. Whatever work is done on gated content is work not being done on content available to everyone."


Someone else:
You "gated" a lot of good content, including a character quest, behind the Endless Paths, though, and that was optional as well.

Stronghold content is available to everyone, though, it's just that, much like the endless paths, it's optional.

Josh:
"You're downplaying the aversion that people have to strongholds, specifically. If there's a "I hate big dungeons" bloc of significant size, I'm unaware of them. Stronghold aversion seems more comparable to romance aversion."


Someone else:
I would expect something with parity with the games this was inspired by. So, when I think of what my expectations are for a stronghold in PoE were, I thought maybe a total number of quests (with similar depth) to the multitude of Strongholds in BG2.

Josh:
"Do you want us to cut six quests and ~20 characters/dialogues from the expansion areas for the stronghold?"

Last edited by Lacrymas; 18/09/15 07:54 PM.