Originally Posted by Sordak
you cannot do it in real life

This point is not very relevant but how can you be sure that you can't "kite" in real life? You tried doing it before?

Originally Posted by Sordak
ToEE does it better. And AoO generaly is pretty weak in DnD because you tend to get only 1 unless you pay feat tax.

Not sure what you mean by you tend to get only 1, but have you played PoE2? That game does AoO decently, IMO.

Originally Posted by Sordak
Meanwhile in RTWP you cannot manipulate the turn order, you cannot effectiveley block movement, you cannot do things as throw items form your inventory, you cannot do off-turn actions and laying traps for your enemies in such a way.

You cannot manipulate turn order because.... RTWP is not TB? Though, Pathfinder: Kingmaker does have an initiative order system. It wasn't very good, apparently, when I last played it, and I didn't play it for long, either, so I can't say much, but I think the possibility of something akin to a "turn order" can be implemented in RTWP. That said, this is simply an inherent feature of TB, nothing more, nothing less.

Not sure what you mean by "effectively block movement". But you sure can do things like throw items from your inventory and set traps in BG games during combat.

Originally Posted by Sordak
you discribe artificial difficulty, thats not tactical

Umm, no. That's why I said "the real problem is AI". "Real", as in, it's a separate issue, although it is related to the overall tactical depth of the combat. Combat mechanics won't mean much if the AI is too primitive.

Originally Posted by Sordak
And other than what you discribe as the "pace" of RTWP, those things can be done by turn based. Immediate reaction is not a good thing, you can have it as your opinion that it is, but as far as im concerned, what makes chess tactical is the part that where you make a mistake, your opponent takes your pawn.

"Those things can be done"? What, exactly, can be done by TB? You're saying TB can produce exactly the same kind of feel as RTWP? So you can play a TB game but feel like you're playing a RTWP one?

Originally Posted by Sordak
What would not be tactical is if you make a mistake, your opponent moves your pawn and you go "oh nono, i didnt mean to do that" and just redo your turn.

Quite, but what are you trying to say? Are you trying to say that RTWP system is inherently a more forgiving system? If so, I won't try to convince you otherwise, since it's a matter of opinion. To me, how tactical a game's combat is is indicated by two things:

1) How much there is in the game for the player to learn, and
2) As you learn and gain deeper understanding of game mechanics, when you actually apply all that knowledge, the combat consistently gets more sophisticated, exciting, and rewarding.


That is it. How much you have to "commit" doesn't really play any role here. If anything, it measures how "punishing" the combat is, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how "tactical" it is. You like your game punishing? Fair enough. You can think that a TB system is more "punishing" by nature, sure, but if you claim a RTWP game cannot be punishing, that is just ignorant.

At this point, it's quite clear to me that the key factor that defines "tactical" for you is "whether you have to pay for your mistakes or not, and how much". You've been speaking as if in a RTWP game it's impossible to make mistakes, that there's little to no punishment, that plans can't go wrong, that there is no "committing to a plan", and that you can undo every single move. Most of your reasoning so far hinges on these points. This is flat out nonsense, to put it politely. You can't have played any decent RTWP game for any significant length of time and seriously say something like this. I'm tempted to ask what RTWP games you have actually played, on what difficulty, and how many times, and so on, but... nevermind.

Originally Posted by Sordak
Basiclaly Turn based can do everything RTWP can do, but also more.

Based on your reasoning so far, what you're really saying is: you can do TB things in a TB game. Which is about the same thing as saying "you can do RTWP things in a RTWP game."

Originally Posted by Sordak
On trash mobs:
No such thing in a well designed turn based game. There isnt a single trash fight in OS2 or in Xcom, or in Final Fantasy tactics.

This is a plain encounter design problem. Has absolutely nothing to do with what combat system the game is running. The BG games are twenty-year-old games. Back then everything was still fairly primitive, especially in the first game. In BG, the random encounters with hobgoblins, kobolds, etc. are there mostly so that there is something for the player to do, since the wilderness maps are pretty big and there isn't much going on in them. Again, the game was very primitive. These encounters can happen repeatedly in a short time when your party wander about; they need to be easy encounters. One of the key things to keep in mind here is that these games did not try to be punishing, like modern games tend to do. The developers simply wanted there to be things for the player to do, as an attempt to keep the games from getting too monotonous. It's as simple as that. Claiming that this is a flaw of the RTWP system makes no sense.

In fact, even in modern games, if you turn the difficulty slider all the way to the left, most encounters automatically become trash mobs encounters. I'm just going to repeat myself here: this is a problem of encounter design and balancing.

Originally Posted by Sordak
RTWP AI can constantly react, the only thing "Complicated" about this is that the AI constantly has to check states. This is more taxing on your CPU but it doesnt make the AI "smarter".

I don't know. Making a generalized conclusion like "This is more taxing on your CPU but it doesnt make the AI "smarter"" without any concrete example is... not convincing. I'm sorry, but if anything, it makes you sound like you don't know what you're talking about. Making the computer check for various conditions is part of making AI smarter. How else do you enable AI to react to different events and scenarios? Have you looked at codes from Sword Coast Strategems for the BG games, or other mods that improve AI? Or are you saying all these mods do is slowing down the games without actually making the AI smarter? Or am I just misunderstanding you very badly?

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you've never played BG2 with any significant investment into it. Which means you would have no idea what its combat is like when "properly" modded.

Last edited by Try2Handing; 20/06/19 11:09 PM.

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