Originally Posted by Sordak
Also you conveniently ignore the other points ive made like off turn actions and turn order management that RTWP cannot emulate.
Full move turn order management can't be done, yes. Other question is: why should it be done? Initiative handling can be done. There are multiple games proving that. The "advantage" of TB here is that characters don't move in TB they warp from place to place while interacting with the terrain and can't be interrupted exept for AoOs. RTwP allows actively catching a non-sneaking character that goes for a gap between controlled spaces. I'd claim that RTwP is harder to abuse here. And I am caling it abuse.
Originally Posted by Sordak
And thus goes your next point. Exactly, youve got infinite options in RTWP, well, not infinite, you are still dealing with spellcast times, spell slots and buffs.
But more than in turn based.
Thus its harder to make a "Wrong" descision.
Again think of the chess analogy from earlier. When i said tactics means having to make the right choice, it also means that the easier it is to go back on your mistake, the less tactical something is.
Hence why the most tactical games are those like chess where the board is laid out to you, and the outcome is entierly based on someone making a mistake.
So RTwP has more options? when did that happen? Yes there are more options regarding the exact direction you are moving and how to walk curves in a momentuous manner. Turns and actions can (and should and do in many cases) exist in RTwP too, so the actual actions are still just as restricted. and all the meticulous amounts of placement and puzzling you want to do in TB always seemed to be more complex and actually more diverse than you think RTwP could be. confused And I do not know how more options translates in less "wrong" options. Just does not compute.
Originally Posted by Sordak
On Trash encounters.
It was you who said trash encounter were a problem with encounter design.
And now suddenly they are amazing because they "build atmosphere"? Pardon me but how do trash encounters build atmosphere exactly?
No brain random encounters on the world map dont build nearly as much atmosphere as a well coordinated ambush.
What is more immersive, going throuhg the dark forest and beeing attacked by 10 identical packs of Wolves before you make it through, or going through the dark forest, constantly beeing stalked by a pack of wolves, teasing the encounter, and eventually beeing ambushed when you least expect it?

Cause im pretty sure not a lot of people would say the first is more atmospheric.
And yes, i do want to have a challenge when playing. thats why its a game. You can go play the aristocrat about "Roleplayign" all you want, good combat doesnt make roleplaying go away. I DM IRL, i draw pictures of every single character and enemy of my games, i print that stuff out and think about the encounters i will throw at my players.
I make them anticipate them and tease them with whats to come, and then i arrange genuinly interresting setpieces with several ways of solving them.
I obviously dont want to win there, but i want to challenge my players, both in terms of roleplaying with tough descisions to make, aswell as with combat difficulty, with challenges to be overcome.
Props to you as DM. You seem to take Preparation seriously and i respect that.
Now on to the point: Yes, fighting the same pack of wolves for the umpteenth time is a stupid waste of time. It does not build immersion at that point. And trash quickly tends to become just that. But that is because it feels like there is no consequence to it and no reason for it. This type of trash (especially the random encounter) takes away player agency. But if your goal is to clear a nest of giant rats.... trashmobs galore. It does not make sense to just have 5 or maybe 10 giant rats in the nest, there are bound to be 30+ and most of them won't be a challenge. In TB, where fights need full time attention and can't move beyond certain speeds the combat would suck hard. in RTwP you'd still be peeved, but it would be much better and the game would not be forced to break immersion by removing enemies that should be there.
There is not a thing that keeps good developers from chasing the players with a pack of wolves in just the way you described. Not a single thing. It is about Encounter design and you can fail or win at it either way.
There is a mechanic that can be used to make all encounters challenging. Its name is "Level scaling" and it is bad. Some encounters should be easy, because the world just works that way. Others should be near impossible, but you can have those in both systems. The easy ones suck in TB and suck far less in RTwP.
Originally Posted by Sordak
On AI:
Let me remind you, you said RTWP needs more advanced AI, i said it doesnt. Its just more taxing AI, not smarter AI. I didnt say RTWP AI is somehow a bad thing. Its not like it actually is very tough on your CPU, most games are real time, but real time AI isnt "Smarter" than turn based AI.
The combat pace and the AI are two things that are completley unrelated most of the time. WoW is real time and has some of the dumbest AI in gaming.
I don't know where to start here... RTwP and TB need different AIs. That's it. Moving on.
WoW AI does not check sh**. Okay, the PvP isle AI does check some sh**, but it is still a very basic AI. All bosses and about every mob though? Scripted. And the scripts are very easy ones just consisting of timers, chances and for bosses and some odd enemies there are triggers based on healh points or mana. This is barely AI and most know that. Starcraft AI is actually a bit intelligent.
D:OS2 AI was "how do I drop at least one enemy to the least amount of life possible" (I am not sure, but it sure felt like that) and used anything it had for that. Especially knowing that Fane is undead. I don't think it ever took creating ground effects that hinder me into consideration, but many D&D players will agree with me on the effectiveness of grease.
Originally Posted by Sordak
the only real lfie example of kiting would actually be mongol horse archers, an archer running away from a dude with a sword and stopping every couple of meters to fire a shot is quite frankly ridiculous.

This whole discussion isnt going anywhere.
Your point basically boils down to "RTWP is better because i like the feel more".
Your entire pretense on how its supposedly a better system is gone by now, you flip flop on issues like trash encounters or willfully misunderstand me.
I dont know what to tell you...
Kiting is ridiculous. Okay. What about TB is restricting me from it though? D:OS2 had action points for that, but D&D... I Don't think there is a rule against it in the Players Handbook. For archers maybe, but what if a bard runs away while shouting insults? I could pull that off in TB. Kiting depends on the enemy owning no ranged attack anyway.
I started out liking TB more, but I can't help but think that your arguments are... flimsy. And that some arguments for RTwP or some other hypothetical system are just... good?