Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Dagless
But it just so happens that WOTC gave the BG license to Larian and they are making a turn based game. That’s not going to change.

Sure. And again, no one is arguing any differently on this point. But this is a forum. And the very purpose of a forum is to discuss, debate, and <gasp> air alternative points of view. So just because Larian has made this choice and that choice is not going to change, does not mean people can't comment on their feelings that it's a poor/wrong choice. If that discussion is not of any value to you, there's a very easy way to deal with it: ignore it and move on. But trying to shut people down or even worse, insult and attack people using despicable language (not necessarily you but certainly there have been those kinds of posts) is outrageous and wrong.

As for your idea of how a tabletop game can be made more "simultaneous," @dlux is correct that that is NOT real-time. It is correctly identified as phase-based, which is considered to be a type of turn-based system (so also sorry, you haven't invented something new). In fact, phase-based systems are quite common in large-scale strategic games like wargames and also Civilization, and everyone agrees those are TB games. However, as someone who dislikes the strictly sequential nature of traditional TB systems, I do agree that a phase-based system is a huge improvement over the traditional TB system.

Yes, thank you. I’m happy to debate it. That’s why I’m here where this topic was banished to. My main reason for participating in this thread in the first place was to try to explain that turn based games can be fun and some things work better in them than real time. As I’ve said before, it’s just different, not fundamentally inferior.

Believe it or not, I don’t say this to try and shut you all up. I say it because I feel bad for all the old BG fans who are convinced the combat will just be shit. Maybe I can persuade a few that it might not actually be a terrible decision if they give it a chance, and it might even be enjoyable. I realise it won’t work with the most vocal critics.

That said, if I see an argument I believe is nonsense, I’m going to call it out as nonsense. Such as this:

Originally Posted by dlux
Originally Posted by etonbears
WoTC liked the TB/MP mechanics of their latest D:OS games for its similarity to PnP

Let's see:
>BG series has an adapted D&D system
>BG3 has an adapted D&D system
How so?

>BG series simulates real time combat
>D&D series simulates real time combat
>BG3 emulates D&D
Sounds to me like the original BG series actually implemented combat as was always intended by D&D.

Do you think that sounds reasonable?

As for the tabletop thing, I never claimed it was real time, or really thought no one had done it. My point was that if original BG was closer to what was “always intended by D&D”, it’s odd they didn’t make the rules closer to how how original BG works. I only went into a little more detail when you both said that was impossible and you specifically asked how it might work.

Bottom line is that D&D is not a simulation, it’s a game designed to be fun to play. BG games are also not simulations, they are games based to some extent on D&D and designed to be fun to play. So dlux’s argument is silly.

Which brings us back to if turn based combat can be suitable and fun for BG3?

Larian are creating complex 3D environments, lots of things to interact with on the battlefield, they want stealth to work well in combat, etc. They want people to experiment and find interesting ways to approach things inside and outside of combat. That’s what WOTC said they liked about them. Not that they make turn based games, but that they make systems that allow players to be creative.

So I don’t think the key question is which is better between turn based and real time. It’s about which is most suitable for the systems Larian are building and the kind of gameplay they want to make.

While you could argue that you can do all these things with real time and pause, I strongly suspect that the reality of trying to carefully position characters, use stealth, set traps and use the environmental would be a frustrating mess as you try to fight the AI. It can be enough hassle in original Baldurs Gate just stopping companions charging into AoE spells. BG3 will have far more complicated environments and options.