Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Vlad the Impaler

Then maybe you haven't played any tactical or strategic wargames, especially ones that use waypoints for movement orders that can take more than one turn? Unit versus character is like the difference between 'potaytoe' versus 'potahtoe.'

All right, I'll amend my comment to say I don't know of any turn-based games with individual initiative for characters where they carry out orders until told to otherwise. Thinking about it, I do know some phase-based games where each team goes all at once, and you can give orders to units and then execute them all at once.

No, I haven't played any tactical or strategic wargames, but since BG3 is not in that genre, it's not that relevant a comparison.

The reason RTwP feels more immersive to me than TB is because once the next turn begins in a TB game I am totally irrelevant and at the complete mercy of the RNG Gods. I don't even need to pay attention to what happens once the next turn begins. I could walk away and ignore it because I no longer matter to what is happening. No matter what new opportunities present themselves during the turn, and maybe vanish before the end of the turn and thus before my chance to take advantage of an emergent opportunity, my attention is not necessary and totally irrelevant. Whatever is going to happen is going to happen and there isn't a damn thing I can do about it. But during RTwP my total attention is absolutely necessary ever second as I pay close attention to what is happening and how well my last orders are working. My total attention is necessary every second to take advantage of new opportunities that present themselves before the opportunity vanishes. Just because I'm pausing the game I haven't stopped thinking or doing because I am both reacting to what has happened and proactively issuing new orders. So my presence and my attention are absolutely essential all the time unless I need to take a break. Sure the RNG mechanics are still happening in the background, but I can at least make changes on the fly to mitigate or leverage the RNG results in the moment. A pause in the action doesn't mean a break in my involvement. A pause in the action doesn't mean I'm irrelevant. That means I'm MORE relevant.

In a turn-based game, the reason to not walk away is because you need to be thinking of your next move, how you want to react to what the enemy is doing. If you decided to close your eyes and ears and ignore what the enemies are doing in DoS/DoS 2, you wouldn't do as well as someone who actually paid attention. Your presence is not "irrelevant" on an enemy turn.

Yeah, in RTwP you do need to pay close attention, but a lot of that is because you need to cancel what you were doing and reposition a unit to be in a useful place to attack from. That's little more than busy-work.

If you have never played tactical or strategic wargames then how can you possibly know that isn't a relevant comparison? According to my experience playing both kinds of games I can assure you it is very relevant and valid comparison. A turn based game is a turn based game is a turn based game. It doesn't really matter if it is a TB RPG or a TB wargame. Turn based games feel to me more like problem solving and puzzle solving as a passive observer rather than participating in the action. No emersion. No excitement. No sense of urgency. No adrenaline rush. I am nothing more than a passive observer while the turn runs. I could take five seconds, five minutes, or five hours to do my turn because I can think about it and figure out what to do at ANY time. Hell, I don't have to be there to watch the turn as it runs. I can start a turn and then walk away because I'm totally irrelevant at that point. I don't need to see what happens because I can figure it out afterwards just by "looking at the board" so to speak. It doesn't even matter when I do my turn or how long I take unless there is a time limit on the turns like in speed chess. I can start a turn and then walk away and think about my next turn at ANY time.

The few TB RPGs I've played feel EXACTLY like a small unit tactical wargame, which pretty much feels just like a large unit tactical wargame except the turns take longer because there are more units. In turn based combat it doesn't matter if I'm controlling a party of six characters in an RPG, or if I'm playing a wargame controlling a fireteam of six infantry soldiers, a platoon of six tanks, a squadron of six ships, or a corps of six divisions. My isometric or overhead view is pretty much the same as an observer rather than as a participant. I'm a passive observer helplessly watching when the turn executes and my presence is irrelevant, IF I watch because watching it isn't really necessary. In a TB game of any/every genre I've ever played I'm basically just moving pieces around on the board like in chess., I'm not playing a character involved in the action. When I play an RPG I want to participate in the action, not passively observe it as if I'm a general watching a map waiting to find out how my army is doing before issuing the next set of orders for my units, or characters, to execute. I have no interest in playing an RPG that will feels just like playing a tactical wargame when the combat is happening. When I want to play like that I'll play a wargame or other kind of strategy game. I play two different kinds of games to get two different feels when playing.

For example, right now I'm literally in the middle of a turn in Panzer Corps 2 that I started yesterday. I haven't thought about it since I shut it down. I don't have a clue what orders I will give next. But when I boot it up in a few minutes to continue playing all I have to do is look at the map, reassess the situation, figure out what orders to give next, and then move my units, or pieces, just like if I was playing chess with pieces that have different attributes from the units in traditional chess.

The more I read the comments in this forum the more I get the impression that all Larian Studios is going to do is put D&D skins on a different game so it will look like D&D, but it won't play or feel like D&D during encounters, and so it won't really be D&D.

Last edited by Vlad the Impaler; 21/08/20 05:49 PM.