We are getting to some serious posts here ... i doubt anyone will read it. laugh
Originally Posted by Abits
Can you give me a more general argument about why you think the evil route is anything more than a mmorpg quest with sex prize?

I think i give you more than one ... and i would repeat myself.
So ... try search my previous posts and read them ... im honestly too lazy to do that for you. laugh

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Also Larian: they gave a good passage a lot more content and quests

Can you be specific please?
Wich quests you block out with siding with goblins? Yes, killing the goblin leaders, ofcourse ... that is 1:1 ...

But if you screw any else its not about taking evil route, its just about being rush and consequences ...
I also didnt plunder Dror Ragzlin treasure room when i sided with them, and now i cant go there, unless i kill them all. laugh
That is nothing else than consequences of my own stupid decision to make main quest before side quests, for people that are included in main quest.

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
they gave more reasons to help tieflings

1) It may seem like good thing to do ...
2) ... ?

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
We did everything so that helping Mintara was rather an Easter egg or an option for those who really liked this drow and they are specifically looking for an opportunity to make friends with her, despite the absurdity of this decision.

What is so absurd about this ...
Yes, she may seem cruel since she will throw the goblin to her spiders ... yet, you massacred whole pack of them attacking the town, so i dont see why pitty them now. O_o
Yes, she is kinda bossy around ... but leaders usualy are. laugh

Minthara have army ... Tieflings have ... i dunno, what does tiefling have, have promissed you some small reward, since they specificly tells you that they dont have much, but they will try to get something for your trouble?
Damn ... infiltrating enemy camp, killing it leaders and potentialy fight whole goblin army on the one site of scales ... and "little something for your trouble" on the other hand ... that seem quite absurd to me. laugh

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Because the game doesn’t give any clues at all what it might be interesting for us, what is our benefit and what prospects.

I start to feel like stuck gramophone record ...
Army ... cult ... godess that is allready saving our life, and probably have some plan for us, that curious traveler wants to reveal?

Damn, in the scene when Zevlor realized that you are siding with goblins, you can tell him this: "Its not personal, i need help and her godess its my best chance."
What more benefit you need?
Some druid dude, that was told you to "may be able to help" by dwarf who just few seconds ago was trying to kill you? I dont feel convinced here. :-/

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Larian didn't even let her join the party, and this is the only reason why anyone in general may be interested in the root of evil at the moment.

Yet. wink
But there are hints that is possible in future content.

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
This statistic is simply that there is a problem with the evil passage

And this topic (funny enough) show us why ...
Bcs for most players the only motivation is greed ... if anyone reveals that there is some OP artefact in the end of evil path, those numbers will be otherwise with a snap of fingers. :P

Originally Posted by Riandor
The game starts making a big deal out of getting rid of the tadpole and the druids seem to offer up the clearest path towards doing this, so why shouldn’t I just murder the goblins and free Halsin? The fact that this idea of a cure is to say “hey no rush buddy, go to place x and get some answers there”, feels a bit cheap.

Do they tho? (funny sentence laugh )
You obviously can try your luck with Halsin ... but I just can't figure out what you think he's going to have a better chance of helping you than anyone else.

I mean except Volo, and maybe Gut ofcourse ... those are just for fun i presume.
Hag and Raphael i would presume will have simmilar chances, compared to Halsin, but with cost so great, so you will regret it anyway.
But Minthara ... she worship the godess that allready messing with your tadpole, making it dormant ... so logicaly, she can control it.

Call me sceptic, but i would say that "clearest path towards geting rid of tadpole" offers Githyanki ...
For one, they are experienced with this problem, unlike druids ... for two, you do have one of them in your group who can negotiate that procedure for you ... and for three, its their holy mission to exterminate Mind Flayers, so there is pretty low chance they will deny you this help.
(Ofc. i expect them to just find out that their procedure dont work on you, since your tadpole was alterned with that dark magic, and you will still need to go to moonrise towers and confront the Absolute ... but that is another story.)

So ... in what universe some dude from group that allready tryed (or wanted to try, depends on your dicerolls) to kill you since you are infected and therefore dangerous ... is your better chance then experts with decades of experience in this particular field ... or godess, that is allready working with it at the moment? laugh

Originally Posted by Riandor
If the Absolute do have plans for you, or if the game wants to at least grant this as an option maybe they should try and get the message out to you sooner.

But they do ...
You have those dreams talking with the Absolute ... and if you dont, it means only one thing, you rushed your main quest and didnt use tadpole enough.

Ofc. some can say that is proof of poor design, since you can side with goblins and praise the Absolute before you even know about the Absolute anything closer ...
Or it simply shows that this character (aka player w/e) do some really weird decisions. laugh

There certainly are some situations that developers obviously expected different attitude.
Good example is Gale, wich if you play your cards bad enough, can thank you for helping him with his condition, and provide him magical artefact to consume ... and just few conversations after he is willing to tell you about his condition and asking about that artefact. laugh

But this one i think is on you. :-/
You just rushed to main plot, and then complained that there is not enough clues ... wich are everywhere around. :-/

Originally Posted by Riandor
Also if there are NPC’s, whether Goblins, Drow or Aunties out there to provide alternative options, maybe the party members, especially the murkier ones could suggest we hear these alternative arguments out?!

They do ... you just need to talk to them.
Especialy Shadowheart was reminding me some options with every conversation, even those that allready passed. laugh
(She warned me to be carefull when making deal with that hag, even when that hag was allready dead.)

Originally Posted by Riandor
So anyway, I didn’t set out to be good per say, it’s just following the concept of tadpole = bad means that one focuses on one’s self and the so called good side just seems the logical choice.

In other words, the “evil” play through could do with some additional marketing!

There is certainly space for improvements ... no argues from me ...
But where isnt? :P

Originally Posted by Zarna
Only character I had that sided with Minthara was due to conditioning and that he finds the tadpole powers useful. There was no compelling reason for my other evil character to do this, he saved Halsin because he wants this thing out of his head now and he was the most logical choice.

Precisely ... isnt it great how many outcomes we can get with differently motivated characters? ^_^
I just want to point out that Halsin can seem like "so far released" most logical choice. laugh

Originally Posted by HustleCat
Oh? I never got those dreams in any of my playthroughs. Maybe I didn't use the tadpole enough. My evil rogue that did use it never needed to long rest either lol

That would be it. smile

Originally Posted by HustleCat
I suppose. At first, it seemed liked the Absolute was commanding them to kill us. There not too competitive in their cult, getting gnolls, goblins, and drow to work together, but not the players? I could see both ways, but in the current state it's still a difficult path to end up on.

Exactly ... its weird that absolute wants to connect everyone but player ... and that is the logical reason why i think its not her agenda, but priests that are hungry for power and just getting rid of potential competition.

Originally Posted by HustleCat
In a meta sense yes, but I meant for that in-character experience, Halsin was best bet. Being unfriendly, my character didn't meet the hag or have La'zael around. Goblin priestess was a bust, so Halsin was the only option at the time for that character

Well ... ofc. if you exclude all other options, Halsin may seem like your best one, since you allready declined alternatives. laugh
Right now we allready know that all paths leads to Moonrise Towers ... all that matters now is who will help you get there, or if anyone. laugh

My "evil character" on the other hand considered Minthara her best option, since druids allready tried to kill her, hag and cambion were not thrustworthy, same as the goblin isnt ... and only idiot will search help in hands of Volo. laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Yes. Yes you have.
When I play the goodside I am pushed towards Halsin the druid who can help me remove this eye.

No i havent. O_o
Halsin is just one of like seven options (some of them most stupid i admit that) ... the best one not yet included ingame ...

You are pushed to Halsin by druids ...
Bcs then you will save their leader ... it might aswell be just manipulate. laugh
And even if they were honest (and we know now that they kinda arent manipulate you) they may still see their way as the best one, just bcs its their way.
Vollo wil also ensure you that he totally know what he is doing ... same as Hag, she litteraly multiple times repeats that she did this countless times ... Lae'zel will with every conversation reminds you that her people knows the only way and noone else have slightest idea ... etc.

See? I dont think Halsin is your "best" option in general ... he is just option, nothing more ... and he may seem to be best, since you are mostly talking with his people. laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
And Gut who seemed to want poison me, I succeeded in my roll and she decided I should die. Evil Path FAIL!

I would not call this fail ... more like evil path alterned. smile
Even the most evil character can kill the goblins, and therefore help Tieflings simply by accident, wich is precisely what happened here. smile

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Throughout the goblin plot I was viewed as an imposter. If my identity was discovered I would be dead... why should I risk it?

That is funny question ...
And why should you risk go kill all Goblin leaders? laugh Isnt that like hundert times more risky?

If you try to infiltrate goblins ... there is some potential risk being exposed, and then you will need to fight for you life ... that is certainly true.
But if you decide to play good guy, you are attacking goblins, so this exact potential risk become certainity. laugh

So even for carefull characters, its safer route. laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Sazza wanted to torture me after rescuing her and Minthara wanted me found and killed until I tricked myself in.

That she did ... obviously she is Chaotic evil character ... Minthara saved you from her, and you did get the opourtunity to revenge.

I know i know, she saved you only to use you, and wanted kill you later aggain.
(And honestly even if you diceroll from all this to being friendly with her, there is litteraly no way to tell if she dont try it aggain. laugh )

But is that so big deal?
Astarion tryed to kill you just the same the second you met him.
Shadowheart threated you aswell, especialy if you are Githyanki.
Lae'zel comanded you and uses you to her own goals, just like Minthara.
Halsin is willing to help you, only after you do some killing for him ... no matter you just helped save his life. laugh
And Zevlor is still demanding another help, and another help, and another help. laugh

In conlusion, everyone just want something from you ... everyone is using you to their own goals, and everyone else is going through it. :P
I cant help the feeling that you guys are a little Drowophobic. laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
I see no longterm benefits in allying with the bad guys.
I would be killing the only healer willing to help me freely and putting myself in danger. I would be joining the enemy's ranks as an imposter that could be discovered and killed at any moment.

That is the thing ... he is not willing to help you freely, nor you are getting in any bigger danger than you will in any other path. laugh
Its a war ... there is no black and white ... just two sides fighting each other, and you simly needs to pick one. wink

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Betray is betray. Why are you wasting our time making long posts and just fill them with redundant and unimportant information?

Only Sith sees in absolute ...
Why ... to make my point obviously, why everyone else ever did? laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
So you are agreeing that there Larian is not giving the players any reasonable argument to join the Absolute?

Not exactly ...

I say that Larian's work is give players opourtunity to make any decision they want ...
And its players work to find motivation for his character to choose it.

Its litteraly like playing tabletop DnD ... you can spend hours preparing major plot that will blow everyones mind ... then your players will stuck for ten sessions in a row in town talking to some irelevant minor character and helping him.
Its not DM's work to force players to do what he want them to do ... that leads to scripted world and predefined story, and often is clasified as boring ... its his job to be prepared for it, when players decided to follow the right route, and provide enough fun while they dont.
And its up to them to try find that right route ... that is what is fun in theese things. smile

So i gues no ... if i have to choose only one option, im not agreeing.
At least not at 100%.

Originally Posted by Eddiar
What is your native language? Because I think you are completely missing certain nuances that are being commented here that you are completely missing.
My point was the 75% to 25% are a symptom of a problem that the community update gave a bad interpretation of the data.

"75% picked the good path! You guys are so nice!" vs "75% picked the good path... why? Oh because Evil path sucks! Dont worry we will fix it."

Czech ... its even written in my nick. laugh
But no worries, i dint expect you to notice. smile Most people in the world outisde the Europe dont even know we exists ... i mean they did in the past, around 2000 we had quite good results in sport, there was some gold medals by that time and i gues we were known mainly trough hockey ... but since then its not that bright. laugh

Maybe i am ... aswell as i may not be to deliver all nuances i wanted to to you, since my english is all autodidacted. laugh

This certainly is one of ways to see it ...
But if you will give it the work, and search some statistics you will find you that most people in Videogames are following the good path.
Its never 50:50 ... usualy it moves between 60-70% for good choices. wink Some examples: here, here, here, here, and here. smile
So on the contrary, this statistic dont show us that evil path is anyhow bad ... it shows us that players are acting exactly as they usualy do, wich kidna prooves that its witen accurately. laugh

That is the problem with statistic i have my whole life (I was educated in this field) ...
People can interpet numbers differently without required context. wink

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Lol. Oh christ its frustrating to talk with you.
You are interpreting things so wrongly, making false equivalencies and assumptions that sometimes I wonder if we saw the same thing.

Did you ever heared adage "100 people, 100 tastes" ?
I just see things differently ... its not right or wrong, i never try to teach you how you are suppose to see anything, just making clear how i see them. wink

Interesting that i dont find the exatly same conversation frustrating at all ...
May it have something to do with the fact i dont try to convince you to anything? smile Think about it.

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Ok. Fine. We are getting recruited through a sexy dream?
Well lets forget every single minion she could muster has a "KILL ON SIGHT" order on my butt. But yeah... those sexy dreams!

You need to read, or listen what she is telling you, not just stare at her boobs. laugh

Also you seem to forgeting that all those minions are independent characters, that was so far their whole life killing everythin "on sight" ... its not like in WoW where you help poor begger giving him a coin, and some NPC in other side of word stop being hostile towards you bcs it have the same faction and you just get that one point in reputation that makes them friendly. laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by HustleCat
Instead, they're all wanting to kill us

True, but that is not Absolute, that is her Cultists ...
While Absolute may be godes, or some entity that will try to become godess, and may want another followers, worshippers, etc.
Cultist are merely mortals, who want their power in this new system ... so they, on the contrary are affraid of competition, and therefore erase it as soon as possibl.

At least that is how i understand it.

What you are doing here is called a headcanon. You have crafted an entire new story in your head and you think that is what's going on. Truth is we don't know.

Well i would call it more like assumption, or speculation ... the effect is still the same, it just dont sounds so agressive.
True, we dont know, that is why we speculate ...

Originally Posted by Eddiar
The only thing we do know is that anyone working for the absolute is searching for us. And want to kill us.
This is not a coincidence.

And that is your specualtion ...
Not so different from mine, in matter of validity, since you also "dont know" ... you just presume different connections than me. smile

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Now whether this is true or not. It does not matter. I don't care for some last minute reveal to subvert my expectations.
I see what I see and I have NO incentive to join the bad guys in Act One.

Then just dont ... no harm made, everyone happy ...
I dont see any problem here. laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
And if I don't do it in Act One I doubt I can full explore Evil side in Act Two if it gets better because of all the future potential evil friends I could have brought along in Act 1.

Another speculation ...
For someone who criticize others for make them, you are making quite a lot. O_o

I for one speculate that if you dont join "Act 1 Evil side" whatever that is, you will certainly have different experience in Act 2 ... that much i believe we can agree on.
But i dont think that we can even talk about some "full explore" or "partial explore" ... world is changing based on your actions, so whatewer you do, you have potential to explore whole world, that was changed by your own decisions.
Nor we can talk here about some restrictions you created with choosing that or this ... that is just consequences.

So ... conclusion? You allways get "full explore" ... it just change every time you made different decision anywhere on your journey ...
Sure you will not get the same outcome if you (or your dicerolls will) choose different path, but that much i would asume.
That is mark of quality, not and error.

The same as if you take "good path" ... what is "good path" anyway ...
Its sidint with Druids, and drive Tieflings out?
Or is it siding with Tieflings and exterminate Druids when you fail your persuation diceroll?
Or is it dont care about their dispute, and just go save Halsin and kill goblins?

Every permutation brings different outcome for Act 2 ...
I just cant see how this can be seen as bad thing.
If you just choose not to explore one permutation, you will not see it ... that much is certainly true, but that is just matter of causality.

Originally Posted by Eddiar
And before you suggest I use this new information and replay the campaign as evil... I say NO.

I would never suggest that ... it's in direct conflict with everything I've been defending so far. :-/
And the fact that you asume that i would ... makes me quite certain that you didnt understand single word i have told you so far. frown
My english must be even worse then i think. laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar
The game should already give me the proper presentation so that I could make an INFORMED decision.

Partialy disagree ...
This is entirely and certainly true in some cases ... as are spells, talents, skill points, proficiencies, etc. ...
But never story!

In story your character have some information that was provided to him ... and based on that he either choose, or have to find out other (perception checks, reaing the red maked journals, or scrolls on table, etc. etc.) ofc. asuming he didnt allready, then he have everything that was provided to him, and he need to choose ...
No character ever in any good written story will give you "proper presentation to make informed decision" ... ever!
On the contrary, in best stories your decision are made at halftruths, and unspoken details that you either find out (aka. speculate ... rightly ofc.) in time, or just will show themselves later ... usualy to screw you up.
And that is the fun in it ...

I cant imagine how do you want to create "proper presentation to make informed decision" in Minthara case, please create me and example from this case so i understand you better ... bcs "Hey you, join me in raid for Druid groove ... i will not help you in any way, nor give you anything as reward except my body, nor will even thank you for your work ... oh and next morning i will cut your head off ... so what do you say, do we have deal?" seem just ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by HustleCat
Then I saved the tieflings since Halsin would be best bet for removing my tabpole in that instance.

Well ... so far all we know is that Halsin can point you the direction where from is that "strange dark magic" that alternet tadpole ...
Meaning he will just show you the way to the Absolute, simmilar (if not just the same) as Minthara.


Again with the meta knowledge speculation.

That post was not speculation based on meta knowledge ... it was comparison of results on the end of two stories ...
Meaning in the time where both your good, and bad characters allready known the outcome since they did it. smile

Maybe it was not clear enough, that much i admit.

Originally Posted by Eddiar
It is incredibly frustrating reading such incredibly long posts when half of it is your own imagination and it never occurred in the game that we are providing feedback on.

I hope I wasn't too tough on you but its late and I am tired after reading through this mess.

You tell me ... you react only to my posts, and possibly in your language ... i react to 3-5 another people ... it is certainly exhausting. laugh laugh laugh
And yes, you are ... a bit ... sometimes ... but no hard feelings from me. smile
Its just a debate, if i dont want to be included in it, i would not. laugh


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!