Originally Posted by Vhaldez
I see no reason why a character who knows what we know ingame would bother with it. You are treated as trash by Minthara all the way through, that is not an incentive to stick to her.

Bcs you are unable to thik outside one single character archetype ... i bet you are choosing everything by "what would I do". -_-

Originally Posted by Riandor
However, the issue for me (other than what I have already contributed), is that the Druids don't realllly feel like a "good" option, given that when you meet them they are trying to selfishly hide themselves from harm and boot out the Tieflings. So other than wanting to find Halsin for my own selfish purposes; I am not immediately inclined to help them. If I am evil, I likely don't care.

That is what i try to explain here since paige 2 (i think) ...
NO faction is "just good" or "just evil" ...

And if you try to search "true neutral" on Wikipedia, you find out that Druids are archetype of this behaviour ... Druid is that kind of character that is able to save people from Gnolls, and then turn against them if they wish to exterminate them ... bcs they just maintain ballance, not good, nor evil.
Also their leader, Kagha i think, is not even druid, but something called Dark Druid (didnt searched yet what that mean, but i gues it means that she is not exactly model druid).
Also i think most people here forgeting how they are threated ... i allready writed that down in more details, but just sumarize: Groove is their place to live, they offered shelter to refugees, and refugees repay them by stealing, refusing to obey their laws, or way of living, and allready are inhabiting much more than half Groove, also you met tieflings at gate, but not single druid ... coincidence?

Originally Posted by Riandor
The Tieflings need help, sure, so if I am good I need to solve the Goblin issue OR sort the Druids issue (can one do that without killing the Goblins?). If I want to play a bad character, I am likely not interested in their plight as they other than being a burden they don't have a lot to offer me, again, evil doesn't mean I want to kill them, but they aren't offering me an incentive to help, such as stop/kill the druids and they will help me with MY issue, because being Evil my needs are more important to me that anyone elses.

I would say being anything except pure good ... but yeah, sort of.

Originally Posted by Riandor
The Goblins betray you

I would not recommend including this fact in my decision-making process. Firstly, you don't know at the moment, secondly, it's not certain.
It's true that given their nature, you can assume it, but that's a different song.

Originally Posted by Riandor
Evil does not equal mass murderer by default and being satisfied. Now killing everyone might be the solution to a problem, but only if it advances me towards my goals.

And here is where you are as wrong as everyone else (except maybe one person so far). frown
So sad ...
If you wrote that being evil doesn't necessarily mean killing everyone, I would sign it for you with a smile.

But when it is presented like this, it is simply wrong. You completely rule out one possibility of a bad character just because you don't fit the pattern of a completely different bad character. And that's the problem here.

Originally Posted by Riandor
Now if Mynthara wants to betray the goblins now that I and my companions have embraced the power of the manipulated tadpole and she offers me up a path to godhood or a form of power, yeah ok, but no one is selling me this, not at first glance at any rate.

Personally, I just don't feel like she has to ... she probably considers her army more than enough.

Sure, if the success of the whole event depended solely on your help, it would be appropriate for her to persuade you, but they don't really need you. It was even mentioned here that no one took part in the attack at all, and the Qlog just updated to "Goblins destroyed the groove before you could do anything."

So your character is not a major breakthrough in plans for Minthara, just a usable tool, and he treats you as such.

Originally Posted by Riandor
Again, the dreams seem massively untrustworthy given the character creation process of choosing your potential mate at first reeks of tadpole manipulating you.

That is once aggain omething your character dont know ...
So, i dare to ignore this fact since its not roleplay.

Originally Posted by Riandor
Were the companions of a certain power pursuasion more open with their opinions the tadpole situation could be exploited because clearly something here is different, then maybe I explore it. Maybe I missed it, maybe it's just an issue of Act1 wanting to be vague, but IF Larian want to know why we are being good it isn't as far as I am concerned because Good is my default playstyle, it's because Evil isn't seductively whispering in my ear.

And that's exactly the bad archetype I was talking about here. Yes, it is true that many people do not decide on the basis of what is moral and what is not, but on what will bring them the greatest benefits or profits.
But what is not true and what a lot, I would even say almost everyone holds, is the claim that everyone has it that way.
So just so we understand, I'm not saying this approach is wrong ... even though it sounds like that, but I can't say otherwise.
I argue that the claim that this is the only possible right approach is wrong.

In the past, the question has arisen as to why someone would throw stones at a bear if no one would pay for it. The answer is simple: Because it's just a sadistic bitch who likes to hurt others because she just enjoys it.
There is no seduction, no reward, no promise of greater power, or the strengthening of bonds with other characters. Just a chatotic evil character.

Originally Posted by Riandor
We are perhaps in danger of going round in cirlces, but if RagnarokCzD is the only one able to fight the good fight for the cause of Evil, then it suggests to me more that there is an issue in the presentation of Evil and its choices in game.

It's one way to look at it.
At the moment we have 8 pages here and about 4-15 people are generally arguing about them ... so I would rather say that this forum and the participants of this "discussion" are completely irrelevant for the creation of any statistical sample.
In addition, keep in mind that this is just one topic and only the gods know how many more are hidden under other names in this forum.
In addition, keep in mind that the mere fact that there are so many sites discourages a lot of people from getting involved.

Originally Posted by Abits
I wrote it the way you like. I suspect you like it because it allows you to drown us in pointless examples that don't prove anything but have it your way.

Its bcs its simplier for me to focus on that part i am reacting, without need to search it in tons of sauce.
But, w/e ...

Originally Posted by Abits
This something I'll probably come back to, but "like they all are selfish? Ofc they are, they are goblins" is utterly and completely head cannon.

Are you honestly sugesting that i made up in my mind that Sazza requested from Minthara this:
"I thought we stick a few holes in her, show her how greatful we are."
here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DJ5dfCPBdE&ab_channel=Kazuliski 4:53 wink

Originally Posted by Abits
I wrote, "Each goblin "leader" has a totally different side quest for you, each of them feels as though it exists in a vacuum, and most of them don't really progress the main story." this is not an argument about characterization, it's an argument about story structure and character interaction. Vacuum means that every goblin leader quest exists completely on its own, with no regard to the others. the fact that the goblin leaders don't act like there are other goblin leaders doesn't make them look selfish, it makes them look like they are not aware they exist.

I want you to do something and i dont care if there is anyone else who want something from you that may even contradict this ... ? That sound pretty selfish to me.

Also i dint do yet any goblin "leader" quest, so honestly i dunno.

Originally Posted by Abits
Well ... if main story is geting rid of tadpole, there really are just Minthara, and Gut ... aggain, simmilar to groove, where is only Halsin(potentialy) and Nettie.

this is a head cannon. nothing in the game directly points to what you say here.

This seems like you either didnt talk to them, or didnt even read your own questlog ...
Probably both.

Are you just trolling me now with quoting segments of my post and saying "not true" "not true" "not true" "not true" "not true" ... or is there any point in this? O_o

Originally Posted by Abits
IMHO Minthara is more like "go kill the people in the grove, because that is the only possible reason you are here" ... all she know about you is the fact that you are true soul, and one can understand that someone like her would presume that you two will not talk, if you were there to kill her ...

another great head cannon. I only wish she would say it. and even if it's true, how does it make the evil path well written?

I have honestly no idea how this shortcut was made ... but IMHO means "by mine opinion" ...
What else you expect than my opinion, when sentence starts with information that i give you mine opinion. o_O

And how does it make "evil path" well written? Since characters are acting by their personality.

Originally Posted by Abits
Why create leaders ... who do you mean?
Goblin leaders that Halsin want you to kill? Probably bcs quest "go and kill five completely random goblin" will be quite stupid. laugh

It's a stupid reason. "go kill one leader" isn't so different than "go kill three". If you don't have a reason for a character to exist, don't create it.

And how should i know ... do my nick seem to be "Swen Vincke"? laugh
Maybe you should ask him why did they create some NPC ...

Originally Posted by Abits
Or do you mean Zevlor, Halsin, and Kagha? ... I gues for same reason as Minthara, Dror Ragzlin, and Gut.

This is not a topic about the "good path". there are problems there as well, sure, it doesn't prove anything about the evil path.

I probably dont know either what you were asking, nor what are you telling now.
You asked why leaders are there ... i give you answer, that the reason will be simmilar to leaders of other faction ... and you tell me that we are not talking about that faction here.

Neither did i ... this starts to feel like really poor trolling man, you could at last try a little bit. frown

Originally Posted by Abits
I gues if you dont specificly do what are you specificly told not to do ... at last one of leaders from each side should be alive, more like 2. And i gues every one of them will have some story in future, wich will depend on wich one of them survived.

nice speculation. no proof whatsoever and doesn't help your claim at all. I judge what's in the game.

Again ... not Swen. -_-

Originally Posted by Abits
[quote]And second question ... you ask why would any character join Minthara.
I hope reasons for mine chaotic evil Drow will surfice:
1) Its a Drow, i know that this race isnt known for some racial loayality, but still my character is closer to her, than some surfacedwellers.
2) Why not? My character dont care about litteraly anyone in that groove, and raid with goblin army sounds like fun.
3) Multiple persons from groove did repeatly insult my character for being a Drow ... it may not seem like much, but those simple reveges warms her cold heart.
4) Minthara is servant of the Absolute, wich as it seems control mine tadpole ... so my chances with someone who allready have control over my parasite seem biger, than with someone who may study some parasite for some limited time.
5) There is Cult that worships Absolute, wich potentialy promises power.
6) Absolute promises better life for Goblins, Hopgoblins, Ogres, Duegars, Drow, etc. ... ofc. my character probably see "better life" differently than that goblin, that tells her about it, but that is nothing she will care about.
7) Every treasure, every valuable, and every artefact i found in groove will be mine.
8) Bcs screw druids, that is why. :P laugh
9) And finaly and maybe most important ... its evil. >:]

asdasdasdWell 8 and 9 was just me making fun of you ... w/e.
7 is exact use of game mechanics for purpose of story ... you kill it, you rob it ... this is how loot works.
The rest is of course from my head ... and you will know that even before you asked if you read at last one sentence i ever writed here whole. -_-

I try to simplify it for you:
Larian job = make options.
Player job = choose.

You know this debate is remind me one of (few i admit that) DnD session i was in ...
GM had enough of one player who still demanded better motivations ... and then he just decide that we all goes on adventure, except this asshole who live rest of his miserable life in his dirty, muddy house, bcs he was "not motivated enough" to move his lazy ass and go out.

Its quite simple rule: If you cant find reason why your character should do something ... you probably should choose different option. But if you really need me to tell you this, there is something horribly wrong. :-/

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!