Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Eh, I'd still allow it in my games.

Totally fair. Like I said, the RAW is pretty ambiguous.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Even if we listen to Jeremy Crawford that shoving isn't a "melee weapon attack", Polearm Master doesn't use that exact phrasing.

Hmm, I'd reckon you'd have an easier time arguing that shove can be defined as a melee weapon attack (since it's never clearly stated it is not), as opposed to saying something that is not a melee weapon attack (shove) can qualify for a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear attack - all of which are melee weapons.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Also Shove (in 5e raw) is pretty weak, so I'm against things that nerf it further.

I'd say Shove is still pretty useful in 5e RAW.

It's a much more debilitating debuff in 5e because unlike BG3, you can shove someone prone as opposed to away. This means they can't get up until their turn (that can be an entire initiative order), and your party can dog pile the advantage attacks. It also scales well for martials because they gain extra attack and can shove and attack in the same turn.

It's one of the easiest and cheaper ways for to gain advantage in 5e RAW, a system where advantage is more rare/expensive compared to BG3.

Shove in BG3 is deadly more so because of cliffs than the attack itself. I wouldn't argue it's not more powerful, but it's also a different kind of powerful which is much more terrain dependent.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
In BG3, this is kind of irrelevant since shove is a bonus action. With polearm master and sentinel, you could totally do this strategy of shove and then prevent the enemy from reaching you. As people above have said, you're sacrificing ASIs for feats.
However, in BG3 disengage is also a bonus action. So you could just disengage instead of shoving the enemy away, which is guaranteed to succeed.

If we're strictly talking about BG3, can't the enemy just bonus action jump in (from outside of the polearm reach) and attack?

They should eat an opportunity attack from Polearm Master + Sentinel (which should counter Jumps OA immunity), but I doubt Sentinel would literally stop someone dead mid-air.

STR attackers will always have great jump distance (since it scales on STR). DEX Attacks are a little worst off, but if they use DEX they can always just switch to range.

Last edited by Topgoon; 04/03/21 07:45 PM.