Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Adding to my large tangent above after giving it some thought...

I actually feel like Larian has been taking the wrong lessons from the success of their DOS games. They perhaps believe that the potential for cheesiness is the primary reason why those games became successful, when most people would actually argue that the DOS games were successful despite that. In actual practicality, the overall design of the cheese in DOS was rather insignificant in comparison to what you could already do with your core skills in those games.

Indeed, the community attitude to the same types of cheese mechanics in DOS is mostly just a 'neat, it's nice that we can do this', and then people go on with their day afterwards. People in the DOS communities generally don't have a weird sense of pride in abusing them like some people have done in the BG3 subreddit, besides maybe stacking a bunch of barrels at the bridge troll, because that troll deserves it and killing it early into Act 2 like 4-5 levels earlier than intended is a massive chunk of EXP. They're not treated as the only viable options in those games, because what matters a lot more is how you use your base skills, because the environmental design actually doesn't point at a cheese solution at every possible opportunity it gets. Some may actually find it almost insulting if Larian actually does genuinely believe that the DOS games are purely defined by the potential for cheese, because turn-based enthusiasts are much more sophisticated than just wanting explosions and finding ways to bend the rules. Indeed, I believe the DOS games are more defined by how the skills interact with the environment, not by how much of the rules I can bend and outright ignore.

The balance of the homebrew in BG3 has veered way too far from 'environmental interaction' into straight up 'bending/ignoring the normal rules', and that's what makes them so contentious. Stressing the cheese so much in BG3 to the point of making it really obvious that entire encounters are designed and balanced around them has only resulted in diminishing the viability of everything else. Which is to say that inserting fringe mechanics from DOS into a DnD environment has exposed how low level DnD at its core is either a much more imbalanced experience than DOS, or lower level DnD is a lot more grounded in tactical variety and can't really hope to compare with the DOS mechanics until maybe past level 5. That's when we actually get double attack and spells that might be able to actually compete with the cheese in overall viability.

The argument can be made that in DOS, the cheese can be marginalized because the base class kits are strong and reliable. In BG3, with the additional restriction of a single action per turn, hit % modified by several terrain and spell factors, on top of the concentration system makes you feel like an absolute wimp unless you play a fighter/rogue or rely on certain spell+magic item combos to not be completely awful (Wizard would be hot trash in EA if it didn't have access to Magic Missiles+Sapphire Spark necklace; the Wizard cantrip spells in particular are awful). Moreover, racial power differences were not as wide as wood elf/general elf/shield dwarf and the rest of the races. I could pick any race in DOS2 and not feel significantly gimped as I do playing a Tiefling druid or Tiefling Wizard compared to an elf/shield dwarf. The gap in racial power is humongous.

If you don't make use of the Sunwalker's Ring in the Underdark with your human casters, they essentially gimp themselves horribly by having to use up their concentration spell to make up the deficit, missing out on the Hex bonus damage and attack/save roll debuff, or CC capacity with any of the CC spells that require concentration.

I didn't have to cheese in DOS2 because I never felt like wet toilet paper in DOS2 if I was playing a certain class. All classes felt powerful from the early game and we didn't have this asinine power curve concept where "your character sucks at XYZ levels throughout the game". That never makes for a good experience. You want your class to feel good at all points of the game, not just some.