Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Can you help me?
It would be usefull in many other threats.

I would like to know why do you mind it.
Yes, Larian homebrew rules, and as you say "cheese" is in the game ... personaly i simply dont use most of it (i shall not claim i dont use any, since im not allways even sure what is and what isnt 5e or Larian), so it dont bother me at all ...
Yet it seem like some people here started holy crusade against those things, since "simply dont use it" is not good enough. Could you please explain me why?

Larian's rationale is also not using their cheese if you don't like it. However, Larian seems to consider their cheese as the core mechanic D&D is fitted around instead of the other way around. Simply not using cheese, still is knowingly engaging in sub-optimal gameplay...in a game where everything is geared towards optimization. It is a conscious self-nerf in a game balanced around the cheese.

The cheese is circular; it screws over D&D balance and becomes an excuse to further neglect the issue. It sacrifices balance for literally a barrel of laughs. From completely broken, virtually non-existent resting mechanics (D&D is wholly balanced around it) - which benefits certain classes/subclasses immensely. To overpowered bonuses for height and flanking, where the flanking mechanic is so rudimentary it cheapens the tactical combat it is supposed to incentivize. Further exacerbated by the AI failing to exploit it like the player easily can. In turn, all this makes certain character creation selections hugely superior to others, which in reality diminishes (viable) choice.

Not many mentions pickpocketing as part of the cheese, but it very much is. In DOS2 and BG3, once you know the mechanic, it becomes a legalized exploit that is risk-free, quick and the by far best source of near infinite wealth and gear. It alone destroys any semblance of risk vs reward mechanic in the game. Be an amoral kleptomaniac, or be punished for it! It's downright anti-roleplaying, but who cares when some have fun abusing the system and others are free to kind of ignore it - right? Also ignore there's no law & order system which manages to be a direct downgrade from the two decade old predecessor.

Consider "weapon dipping". Larian's cheesy core mechanic manages to become a chore mechanic as it's both clunky and micromanagement-intensive. It also comes with its own balance issues and is a significant early-game damage bonus for particularly dual-wielders - "balanced" around the player's "boredom threshold". On top of that it manages to be immersion breaking in that it can be a normal candle that is everburning and can set even steel weapons ablaze. A fire that somehow does not burn the wielder. It lacks any internal logic. It is also wholly unnecessary, as most of the cheese really is. D&D has tons of ways to set "weapons on fire" using cantrips, spells or magical or alchemical resources. The D&D implementations has none of the many issues of Larian's cheese.

Much of the same criticism can be directed towards the "shove" or "throw enemy"-mechanics. Alongside "tadpole jump" these are some of the numerous strong boosts to Strength-based characters (again more balance issues). It is situationally an instant win mechanic, simplistic in a way that does not consider relative body mass, or indeed multiple legs. A tiny invisible halfling could push the huge oblivious/stupid phase spider matriarch queen with 100% success. Again, D&D has cantrips, spells and magical items that could do the trick (i.e. Repelling Blast, Thunderwave, Ring of the Ram, homebrew wild shaped Bull with knockback charge) without messing with balance or immersion. Hell, I wouldn't complain as much if Larian bothered to even attempt giving their cheese legitimacy by providing some "internal logic". I.e. by making it a "tadpole" kinetic, more balanced power where willpower+dexterity could give a ranged option to willpower+strength melee.

The barrelmancy is fine, just scale it back and give it "internal logic". What is it, and why are there so many barrels of "wildfire"? Why aren't the enemies reacting to explosives in their midst? Why aren't the enemies using it to their advantage? I would like to see the BG1s "kobold commandos" make a comeback with BG3 goblins using these things against the player. This would be a direct homage to the classic and a type of "cheese" people would appreciate.

Over-emphasis on homebrew/cheesy magical items. When everything is "special", nothing is special. Scale back and give D&D players more of the classic items. Better balance please.

Once you move beyond the "if you don't like it, don't use it"-mindset and actually bother to analyze the issues, you realize this is about much more than a handful of easily ignored implementations. BG3 is supposed to live up to the legendary title, but Larian is dropping the ball gameplay-wise. Larian could give us their fun gameplay elements without sacrificing balance and immersion, just by respecting D&D a little more. Larian (writers AND programmers) and Wizards of the Coast (D&D experts) could benefit immensely from a sit down focusing on making the gameplay congruent with the 5e setting and BG3 story.

Last edited by Seraphael; 12/05/21 10:30 AM.