Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I think you could also say the same thing for Orcs and Goblins as well as Klingons (space orcs) and Ferengi (space goblins).

I think one of the interesting changes that WoTC made was to take away "inherent" evil as a thing for prime material races. Inherent evil is now mostly a function of outsiders - Devils, Demons and Daemons.

The question is how do we utilize these canonical races in a way that "cleanes" them of the potential racist (or anti-sematic) imagery and backgrounds. I honestly don't have a good answer to that. I think it helps if when people are introduced to this sort of thing there is a degree of supplementation.

The Drow are in a bad situation with Lolth, but many are escaping and leaving that abusive relationship.

The Orcs are in an abusive relationship with Grummsh and suffer from having to scrape a living out of resource poor regions and endless pressure from more aggressive and invasive species that they constantly have to fight. However some Orcs escape the system.

The Goblins are slaves of Muglubiyet and have similar problems to the orcs, are not respected, have short lives and get stuck in cycles of destructive behavior. But some, again, escape.


This topic concerns me though - as well intentioned as these thoughts are - given the nature and history of these forums (and gamers) it is likely to attract knee-jerk reaction formation stuff, defensive rage, name-calling and other bad behavior instead of thoughtful conversation.

It's a long running problem that needs to be addressed but it's not exactly going to be simple to do so, partially because a lot of it is just stuff that's "always been there" so it takes some effort to untangle it.

Tolkien did get inspired for the orcs by some of the history of the worst parts of the mongol hordes, but he also regretted making orcs and had a handful of exchanges where he out right shot down theories that orcs were "irredeemable" or "inherently" evil. Unfortunately, he wasn't around for the internet, so his objections to his writing being used as such went widely unnoticed and... well... the widespread interpretation of orcs and goblins became what they are.

My brother has a good comment on this: "if they're inherently evil, destructive monsters then they can't have a society... if they have a society they can't be inherently evil monsters" the comparison of the 5e gnolls is good here, given WotC has said that gnolls should probably be reclassed as fiends rather than humanoids. They're basically semi-autonomous extensions of Yeenoghu rather than individual creatures. They have no society, they just spread and kill, endlessly. That's it.

By comparison, orcs and goblins have ongoing societies. Drow have ongoing societies. Therefore, they cannot be inherently evil.

One complaint this gets is that the game needs simple enemies that you don't have to feel bad about fighting... and there's no reason you can't have it...

bandits are just as much faceless enemies to fight and kill and can be any of the lineages. The Guilded Age webcomic also did a good job with this by having a typical MMO style Horde vs Alliance thing but end up with the Horde and Alliance expies coming to peace...and during the story, had a doomsday cult that was drawing membership from all sides and all peoples.

D&D IS getting better... but it's a semi-large company... small on the overall scale, tiny really, but in terms of the hobby, it's huge. And bigger companies tend to move slower. Hence why the stuff D&D is being lauded for recently is stuff indie groups have been doing for over a decade. Just simple fact... the poor people involved in a project, the harder it is to get it to shift trajectory.

Also, we have to avoid the idea of "we finished it, we fixed it" because historically (at least in the States) we have a bad habit of doing a big visible thing and deciding "well that's done, we've fixed discrimination" and just stop and let matters fester until they get really bad again. This is a constant effort. Referring again to Tolkien, he pushed the boundaries on lots of tropes in his life, but it's not like he reached the finish line...and he made mistakes that we have to untangle in this generation.

Trying to untangle what is hurtful from what is neutral is a job and a half, and one requiring actual communication rather than people just unilaterally deciding what is and is not allowed. We need to talk to and include diverse voices. There will always be things that slip by, but again, communication is key. Talk with people and include them in discussion.

Last edited by Thrythlind; 03/08/21 04:46 PM.