Originally Posted by Try2Handing
Originally Posted by GM4Him
RTWP still isn't realistic entirely because you have to manage 4-6 people who have half intelligence. Half the time, if you don't micromanage them, they do something stupid.
What would you prefer instead? That the game plays flawlessly for you on its own?

I understand if someone finds RTWP cumbersome, but saying it's "unrealistic" because of this doesn't make sense.

Taking the responsibility of controlling multiple characters on yourself means you accept that, "not controlling a character" means "you're telling them not to do anything". If they're "doing something stupid", that means you're relying on AI, which in turn means you're deferring your responsibility to someone else. And if that someone else happens to be incompetent and you're unhappy with their performance, that's also on you. You know what they say, "if you want something done right, do it yourself."

Basically you're asking, "hey I don't want to control everyone on my own, I want someone else to take half the job, but I also want them to do perfectly, against the endless amount of possibilities of things that can happen in combat." Cmon bruh...

I prefer TB. I can actually get familiar with each character's abilities and see what each person does as if I am each one of the characters. RTWP relies heavily on scripts or major micro managing - constantly pausing in order to ensure the characters are doing what you want them to be doing.

My point is that neither TB or RTWP are truly "realistic.". Sure, RTWP may be MORE realistic in many ways, but the unrealistic part is that you are 1 person trying to control 4-6 all at one time - having to think for them all constantly - unless you rely on scripts. In my experience, scripts suck, and not one game I've played with RTWP has good scripts. I even tried Pathfinder with RTWP just to see if AI scripts may have improved since BG2 or NWN2, and no. They haven't. I can't play that game RTWP. A pack of freaking wolves will kill my party unless I pause constantly and micromanage each character and remember who has done what and when and who has finished a spell or a swing and who hasn't. Especially when your characters are not all together, trying to keep track of 4-6 at one time is a major pain - and again, unrealistic.

Example. I have 6 PCs. In real life, I would only be the MC. I might issue orders if I'm the leader, but I'd ONLY control me. Gale would rely heavily on his magic. I wouldn't have to tell him to cast freaking Mage Armor and then Blur and then Fireball, or have to tell him where to cast it and when. I'd only control me in RL. I wouldn't have to tell Wyll to Misty Step behind the gobbo leader. He'd make that decision himself. Lae'zel wouldn't have to be told to go for Ragzlin. She'd just do it, and she'd attack with everything she had. Her own intelligence would decide. Shadowheart would, on her own, hurl Guiding Bolt at Ragzlin. Astarion would dive into shadows and fire his crossbow. In split second thinking and timing, I would only have to know me and decide for me, relying on everyone else's own intelligence to keep them alive and well.

In RTWP, I can't really BE ALL the characters, putting myself in ALL of their shoes. I have to rely on idiot AI that half the time lets them die because it isn't smart enough to cast a healing spell when a character needs one or hurl a powerful damage spell at a good time. In my experience, characters with scripts cast Fireball when enemies are almost dead, so they waste the spell, or they heal after someone is dead, or they run away into more enemies because I didn't notice that they were being attacked because I'm one person focusing on my main who is surrounded and instead of the character saying, "Help! I'm being attacked," she ran off into more orcs when she could have cast a spell to save herself (ahem Qara in NWN2, multiple times), or Minsc is just standing and doing nothing for 15 seconds while everyone is dying because I didn't notice him doing nothing and the script decided he had nothing better to do, or I command a character to do something and midway they stop and do something different because the script told them to instead of what I wanted them to.

I'm sorry, but I HATE RTWP. The only game that kinda did it okay was KOTOR. At least I could pause and cue up multiple actions and then unpause. But many times even that was frustrating, and you could only ever control 3 characters at a time.

The only truly "realistic" combat systems are like Skyrim. You are in one person's shoes and everyone else controls themselves. But even those are frustrating because your henchmen are still usually idiots who get themselves killed all the time.

What I always thought someone should do is a round based realtime system. Basically, you tell each character who to target and with what. Then you cue the round selection is done and the game plays the round out for you. When the round is done, you select actions for the next round.

So, you tell the MC to attack Ragzlin with your flaming sword. You tell Lae'zel to attack the ogre with her greataxe. You tell Gale to use fireball on a group of cultists. You tell Wyll to attack Ragzlin from behind and Astarion to find cover, use a bonus to Hide and shoot. You tell Shadowheart to cast Guiding Bolt at Ragzlin. Then you hit Start and watch your characters move and do what you commanded as the enemies move and do as the AI commanded. They all move and act simultaneously based one one round of commands.

Let's say the MC kills Ragzlin alone. Too bad. All characters targeting him still do so because they were already in the middle of attacking him. While Gale is casting, cultists with higher initiative shoot him down. He never finishes his spell.

The difference is that the game stops automatically every 6 seconds and you aren't plotting exact courses across the battlefield. You select what your target is and what action and bonus action you are taking IF you can take it. If you target an enemy that runs away, you may not attack that round like you want, but the point is it stops and resets every round. Still, even with this I find lots of flaws - pathing being the main one.

Anyway, at least with a round based realtime, I'm not trying to track what action is finished yet and which is still being performed for 6 characters, and trying to keep track of health and position and so forth constantly and all the other issues I have with RTWP.

Last edited by GM4Him; 18/01/22 10:27 AM.