Originally Posted by Ragitsu
I commend people who reject the tautological justification that enables many real-life sociological ills (i.e., "They're bad because they're bad."); I feel pity for people unable to accept a simple premise in a game of make-believe with genuine monsters.

Good thing there's no-one like that in this thread then, huh?

A game like this absolutely does need and benefit from 'simple' evil - things that are directly, unquestionably evil, that don't present any moral grey areas and that people can fight directly and feel good about putting down, etc. No-one has ever denied that the game does need and benefit from that.

There's plenty of those things in the game, and no-one is suggesting there shouldn't be!

Sentient, sapient creatures with the capacity to self direct and who don't have that evil literally baked into their very essence are not that; it's a very simple premise, and it's pitiable that there are people here unable to accept that in this game of make-believe. The good news is, those people can play their own games at their own tables with their own DMs and in their own world space where certain free-willed creatures are 'simple' evil, if that's what they want - it's even encouraged.

There are creatures in the D&D lore that are simply evil; always evil, absolutely evil, unquestionably evil, no grey morality, no doubt, no denial - they're just straight up simple evil and you should feel good about fighting them. That's not changed. These are creatures who are evil to the extent that the very concept of one such creature NOT being evil is, itself, a contradiction and an impossibility. They're so inherently evil that if one of them were to, somehow, not be evil any more, it also wouldn't be the thing that it is any more either, that's how impossible it is for these things to be anything other than absolutely evil. Many of these beings are entirely sentient and sapient and will even try to convince you that they aren't actually all that evil, just for extra fun... they're lying, they're evil, and that's a factual absolute ^.^

Goblins are not those things.

It's a very simple fact to wrap your mind around, so it's mind-boggling that some folks here are still struggling with it.

It should be very patently obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense that goblins are not those things... but if you want them to be in your own game, then you're encouraged to run your game space that way ^.^

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I don't think you will win this one, Ragitsu, because WotC has pretty much decided that everyone decides for themselves everything in FR and D&D. No lore is Canon and no rules are set and everyone decides for themselves whether alignment drives the race to be good or evil or whether each person drives the alignment.

This is simply not true, but I'm sure you're going to keep on ignoring that.
There is lore and there is canon; DMs and players are encouraged to rewrite and re-rule it as they see fit at their won tables, if it works for them or makes their game more fun, but that doesn't take away from the fact that there absolutely is a lore base that exists nd a canon that goes along with it.

For example... anything that a video game does or says that contradicts, runs against or otherwise does not agree with material in published source books is, strictly speaking, considered to be Non-Canon - so the 'all Lolth following drow have red eyes' thing is utterly non-canon ^.^ Great to know, huh?

Are there even good and evil realms anymore?

Yes. Factually, canonically, absolutely defined as part of the lore, yes there are. There are even goblins living in some of them, and they are very definitely evil goblins. Fancy that.

Are devils even evil?

Yes. Factually, canonically, absolutely defined as absolutely evil, and physically and meta-physically incapable of being anything other than evil, as has been discussed and described several times at this point ^.^

What about hags?


Mind Flayers?

Yes, though with the potential for individual exceptions on an exceptionally rare basis - basically, the elder brains are inherently evil and cannot be otherwise. Individual mind-flayers are under the dominion of elder brains and serve them willingly, and are almost universally evil as well - extremely rare cases of illithids that find themselves broken away from an elder brain's influence (for whatever reason), may, even more occasionally still, find that the ability to decide for themselves for once leads them down a different path. Most - the vast majority - who end up parted from a brain's influence simply want to get back to it.

Intellect devourers?


This is all very simple.


Usually. Most of the time, in fact. Inherently? No, not at all.

That said, I agree with others that this conversation is going nowhere at this point. The facts have been laid out and explained, people are free to ignore them if they wish - whatever makes your own game more enjoyable, run with it. Anything else I post here would just be me repeating myself again, so I think I'm going to save my energy at this point ^.^