OK. Now it appears I've gone too far. My apologies to those I have upset or offended. I was trying to make it a bit of a joke because it appeared to be getting too serious, and I think people took it as me being serious and condescending and such.

I was only partially serious during most of my posts. In all seriousness and sincerity, this is really what my points are:

1. In the beginning, all monsters were bad. Period. Goblins, orcs, trolls, undead, etc. Everything was evil except halflings, dwarves, elves, and humans. This was largely due to everything being based off of LOTR. Monsters = bad. That's how it all started, and even drow were bad in the beginning.

2. Over time, it's changed until now, it's all relative. So, I was actually agreeing that it is no longer Monsters = bad. WotC has changed their stance on it all. It's up to the DMs and players to decide what is truly good or bad. In the end, according to WotC, even devils and angels aren't locked in. It's all up to the DM. I'm not ignoring anyone's posts. According to true, canon, lore, devils and demons are bad, but even canon is now subject to change based on whatever the DM and players want. In reality, if you want to make a good devil, that's up to you and the DM. But, then again, that's ALWAYS been true really. WotC is simply stating that it is now true, as if giving people permission to do this. In all honesty and fairness, a DM and players could have always made devils good and angels bad if they really wanted to. Nothing was ever stopping them. Would it be considered canon? No. But it still was true that DMs and players could do whatever they wanted. Shoot! I've been guilty of bending the canon and lore and rules so many times, I can't count them. I've made chromatic dragons who were not evil that the players have encountered, and they became good friends with the characters, helping them to defeat other chromatic dragons. I've made entire stories built around this. Oh! What an exception! How fun!

3. That said, canon has changed many times over time. One of my points was that in the beginning goblins were considered evil - no questions asked and no one ever considered a goblin good or just misunderstood or as a race that was evil only because they were taught to be evil. They were, for all intents and purposes, evil like mind flayers are evil. They simply were evil. Now, goblins are in question. Orcs are in question. Kobolds are in question. Are they truly evil or just raised to be evil? But, where do we draw the line in this? Why are mind flayers considered evil without question, but goblins are not? Slowly but surely we are sliding towards nothing being hardcore evil. Even vampires are no longer necessarily considered evil, or zombies. People are starting to create characters hat are vampires and zombies who aren't necessarily evil. So, pretty soon, if we keep sliding in this direction, we won't have ANY actually evil monsters. It'll all just be a bunch of races that are warring with each other like Star Wars or Star Trek with no actual evil or good. Everything will just be blended together. Why? Because popularity of a particular race causes the lore and canon to slide away from that race being evil and it becoming neutral, like all the other races. Soon, because people might like creating and playing brain-eating Mind Flayers, they might make Mind Flayers no longer lawful evil but maybe neutral or something so that players can feel free to play brain-eating monsters who aren't necessarily bad. When you start to shift your thinking to "nothing is evil as a whole but there are some good and evil mixed in for every race" you start to slide towards this total chaos approach where nothing is set. So the point isn't necessarily about goblins in particular, but I was just making a point that there is a slippery slope that D&D is taking, and that's one of the points Ragitsu was making. First, all was bad. Then orcs were not so bad. Then drow. Then tieflings, so people could play not-evil demons. Then dragonborn, so people can play not-evil dragons. Now it's goblins. Tomorrow, will it be mind flayers? Trolls? What's next that we're going to make not-evil? Shall we make all races not-evil anymore even though they are totally vile and evil just by their very definition? The slide is real. The evidence is there, and Ragitsu pointed it out with his comments about half-orcs, tieflings, dragonborn, etc.

4. Regardless of whether a race defines the alignment or the alignment defines the race - we could argue about that forever - I was actually trying to bring it back on topic. The goblins in BG3 are evil. Their kids are evil. End of story. They're killing and eating innocent people. We can kill the goblin kids and still be good guys because they are evil kids. Do I like killing kids of any kind in any sort of medium? No. Would I feel better if they didn't leave the goblin kids in the game? Yes, actually. I don't like killing them. Period. Can I justify it? Yes. Tieflings? No. I wouldn't want to bring myself to kill them even playing an evil villain character. Should I be able to? I guess. If you as a player don't feel guilty about killing good kids who are just a little naughty, then... well... I guess they should let you. Do I agree with it? No. When playing the evil drow character I created, I was relieved that I didn't have to kill the tiefling kids. I had a hard enough time killing everyone else in the grove and being the evil character. I don't like being evil. I had to go against my grain to play an evil character just so I could see the evil character path content. It wasn't exactly fun for me. But, for those who like such things... well... I'm not sure why you'd like such things, but... I guess... maybe... they should let you??? To me, it's kinda sick that you'd want to, but... well... who am I to say what is good or evil. Right? It's all relative. (Note: I don't really believe that, but I'm going with the mentality of many that good and evil aren't actually solid things we can base our morals off of.)

So, on point of the topic, I think the killing kids part of the game is not fun. It's not ideal. I didn't like killing goblin kids. I justified it because for as long as I've ever played D&D, goblins are evil because their alignment is evil. They were created by an evil deity and they serve their evil deity. They murder people and eat them. Goblin kids will ALWAYS grow up to be evil monsters, according to the original lore of D&D and based on the lore that I've always used. Therefore, they are no different than killing cultists of Bhaal who murder people. Did I like it? No. Would I do it again if I had to in the game without having much of a problem with it? Yes. Why? Because they are evil. I can rest in that knowledge. Take away from me that goblins are all evil, and yes... absolutely... I will have a problem with killing goblin kids. If goblins can be redeemed at all, I have a problem with killing their kids especially. So why am I against making goblins potentially good ever in any regard? Because in my fantasy world of D&D, I don't want to have to question whether I'm being a good guy when I'm killing monsters like goblins. This is not ancient Sparta here where maybe I could convince the children of Sparta to be good and not go around invading and butchering people just because they are a warlike society. This is goblins who are monsters who murder and eat innocent people. Why people want to turn them into potentially not-so-bad is beyond me. Why do you want to turn them into just another race that isn't necessarily evil so that you have to question whether or not you're good if you kill all their women and children?

Am I glad I didn't have to kill the tiefling kids when I played an evil character? Yes! Absolutely. Thank you Larian that I didn't have to kill the tiefling kids as an evil character. Do I really want them to make it so that you can kill tiefling kids as an evil character? Actually, no. I don't. I actually think there's something a bit disturbing about it personally. If there was a movie where kids were being killed on screen and people enjoyed going to watch children being massacred, people would - I would hope - generally think there's something wrong with that. Knowing tieflings are not evil, it is hard enough for me to kill the adults. Killing the kids might actually be too much for me. I don't think I could. In fact, when I played the evil drow that I created just to see what it was like to be on Minthara's good side, I got to the cave where the kids were and was trying desperately to psyche myself up to kill the kids because I thought I was going to have to. I, again, was very glad that I didn't. I REALLY didn't want to kill the tiefling kids. Thank you Larian! I VERY much appreciated it. And that is why, I suspect, that they did it that way; because for people like me, there would be no way we'd ever get to the evil path content.

So, if we're being totally serious here, then I'll tell you my honest opinion. They should remove killing kids from the game because there is nothing enjoyable about killing kids of any race. And frankly, in my honest opinion, no games should ever have an evil path where you are going around butchering innocent people. There's something just a bit disturbing to me about people who enjoy going around killing innocent people, even in a fantasy setting. It's creepy to me that people enjoy it. I don't even like doing it to see what the content is on the evil path. It's hard for me, and I can't honestly understand why it ISN'T hard for others. Over time, I've come to understand this a bit. I've known people who do things like this for fun. In their minds, they do it BECAUSE it's just a dumb game and they don't associate it at all with reality. It's just pixels to them. I have a hard time with that myself, but I understand that it's just me. To them, there's something wrong with me because I take it too serious. I put myself in the character's shoes, and the video game characters are very much living people to me. I have to actually remind myself that they aren't. Thus, I was actually even able to play an evil character in this game only because I had to pull myself out of the game and say to myself over and over again that it's just a dumb game. It's not real. I'm not really killing people.

So there's my TRUE honest opinion on the whole thing. Take it or leave it.

Last edited by GM4Him; 23/01/22 03:29 PM.