Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback (Patch 9) On identity and whether it's even worth having in its existing form

The idea I'd like to touch upon here is that the NPCs should address/interact with the player character based on their appearance - and, therefore, their perceivable sex - rather than their identity. Yes, I do realize that the entire point of the addition is to allow the opposite, but that brings us to the subject of immersiveness, suspension of disbelief, and consistent character behaviour.

We have people like Aradin who would throw racial slurs at tieflings all day long but make sure to get the PC's pronoun right even though at no point did said PC introduce themselves. We have Dror Ragzlin, a hobgoblin, who hardly hails from a standardly "civilized" society and is openly hostile towards the character, and yet he will also address them based not on what they look like but on their identity instead. Even taking into account that he is a telepath thanks to the tadpole, why would he care not to offend somebody he is considering to kill? Them suddenly displaying "politeness" of that kind runs contradictory to how they are portrayed as characters, and makes scenes that are supposed to display danger, anxiety, and hostility come across as artificial and awkward - resulting in a "he is a villain, but at least he gets your pronouns right" moment that is beyond embarrassing from a writing standpoint. Even the friendlier conversations turn into mostly rather harried and currently (or until recently) endangered people interacting with a clearly male- or female-looking PC but somehow magically knowing which form of address to use, with the non-binary ones feeling especially forced and shoe-horned into what was otherwise a natural-sounding line, creating all the effect of how awkward it is to regularly use pronouns other than he/she and their forms in a supposedly informal and clear conversation - and it'd become even more jumbled in translation.

Granted, I am not a native speaker, which is partially why I am having very hard time processing the concept of addressing somebody whom you know or can see and hear right before you with "they" in their presence, making it seem like "they" are not there or their identity is a mystery. Unless pulled off well, it turns conversations set in a fantasy setting into a particularly strictly moderated and rule-bound Discord chat. I can think of Pyre as an example of how to do it right (where you pick whether your companions either can tell that you are male, or female, or they can't and just don't assume your gender at all - with you being described from the appearance perspective as a vague robed figure), but how BG3 uses the concept does make conversations feel very artificial and sanitized. Might as well remove all the racial remarks while we are at it, so that nobody offends anybody, and have the duergar at Grymforge stop abusing their slaves - otherwise why are some forms of oppression portrayed in the game - race-based, enforced - displayed openly and addressed, but misgendering somebody because they don't resemble the commonly percieved appearance of a gender they identify as is a sin that even roughhide mercenaries, slavers and brutish hobgoblin warlords won't commit? Honestly, with how its done, were I to be invested in the subject in question (however, without an incomprehensible (to me) wish to be "represented" in a fictional setting over there being any work done about solving the real-world issues of how certain groups of people are treated...), I would have probably found it as a token gesture at most - then again, some people out there appear to be somehow happy with what is at most a poorly constructed charade of acceptance that does not recognize the issues that a person with an unorthodox identity would face.

This is a setting where people would judge the book by its cover, there is no Internet, no pronoun pins, no globalized cultural values - if anything, were there appearance options to actually make an androgynous-looking character, then it'd make a lot more sense and will work a lot better as a concept (say, a masculine-enough looking male-identifying female character who is genuinely man-like in appearance, or a more feminine-looking male body - yes, the anime tropes, I know) - while what we do have is distinctly male and female models that leave no guesses as to what sex they are, and calling that "gender-independent appearance options" is ve-e-e-e-e-ry generous - at most you could - from the beginning, no less! - apply makeup to a man (the "femininity" of which as a concept differs from culture to culture) or slap a beard on a woman (which could either be read as a developmental anomaly or it's just a dwarf lady) - not on an elf, though. Clothing/underwear doesn't change at all either, so you cannot have, say, male versions of armors on a female model or vice versa - for obvious technical reasons, but the point stands.

I highly doubt that those knockers and those shoulders will leave any bystander actually uncertain as to whether or not they see a male or a female - they clearly don't when you have your character, your companions, and the narrator gendering everything and everyone else based on looks alone - how do they know how the three Chosen, or the mind-controlled cultists, identify without asking them first or probing their minds for it (which does kinda sound like a very sketchy concept when it comes to dealing with the appearance-identity dissonance)? But the player character is somehow always referred to with the chosen pronouns, no matter the context. Why would, for example, Shadowheart, in a moment, say "they" instead of "he" or "she" referring to the PC without ever being prompted to do so, but never once address anyone else as "they"? Lae'zel, effectively an alien, somehow recognizes the male and female characteristics of the Toril humanoids. Why is Gale being all gentlemanly with Shadowheart from the get-go, despite never learning how she identifies - and you could argue that her armor gives her vague enough of a silhouette?

How would anyone just know in a world that, while it has polymorph magic (the whole point of which with the subject at hand in mind is specifically becoming differently perceived, going back to the "judging by the cover" argument, and it opens a whole other drawer of problematic concepts with the ability to assume an appearance of a different race and use that with ulterior motives in mind...) and deities who can manifest however they feel like (they are, well, gods, and it's not exactly a novel idea given how some of the real pantheons look in that regard), is a relatively grounded high-fantasy setting where a good percentage of people, realistically, wouldn't even be literate, let alone not regularly struggling with everyday matters (wars, famine, climate, class-based and sex-based oppression), where nobility is overly obsessed with preserving their bloodlines, where certain cultures have certain expectations and traditions, where there are races which either come in one or neither sex (the hags/nymphs/dryads are all female, and somehow I doubt they'd be questioning their identity despite the chaotic nature of the fey because they specifically utilize their feminine appearance and the recognition of themselves as such both by them and by others as means to an end. Illithids are effectively hermaphrodites, referred to as "it" or sometimes addressed as male because of - again! - their masculine appearance, and so are the beholders, who only call their colony mothers that to honour the mage lady that tore them out of Mechanus), and where religion is heavily intertwined with quite a few societies - like the duergar and their heavily meritocratic cult of Laduguer, or the Menzoberranzan drow. Even the less faith-bound communities would be mostly down-to-earth and with an expectation of "normalcy" exisitng with them.

Adventurers being the odd men (women) out who contradict the norms and the setting being restructured to accomodate that because, rather than make relatively grounded characters that fit into the world (even if non-conforming in some way as part of their character, but with there being reasoning and understanding of where things stand with said non-conforming), players would instead create whatever they pull out of their backside or whatever they want to self-insert as is not a role-playing practice I ever understood, honestly. And what about when the origin characters become available? Will their identity be subject to switching also, if somebody headcanons, say, Karlach, as identifying as male? Will every line where she was ever addressed as female changed too, adding even more rewriting work and extra voiceover to do for this one gimmick that has no impact outside of others addressing the character? I would argue that having an allegedly dooming medical condition that you desperately need to find a cure for is hardly the time to be concerned about what you are perceived as by others and your survival instinct ought to override most other things, but it's probably considered "hate speech"...

Since I've touched on culture, there's another issue that comes with options that certain combinations of races and sexes come with - a female drow is the most prominent example. There are a few instances in the EA where a female drow specifically can use her status in her society as a means to resolve situations in unique ways. Say what you will about the "Lolth-sworn" drow and how messed up their society is, but it is still a matriarchy, the female-born members of which enjoy certain priviliges. The concept of being able to create a male-sex drow that identifies as a female one and characters reacting as they would to a female-female drow basically throws the cultural aspects out the window, again, on the basis of immaterial identity which does raise certain parallels to how one can just abuse said identity as a means to access things that are restricted on the basis of sex - both from a positive light (women disguising themselves as men to attend universities back when they were not allowed to, for example) and a negative one (examples abound, and I'd rather not go into that with how dangerous an edge I am walking already with this topic).

With the drow example I am not convinced that Lolth would let what she will likely see as the worst possible transgression to go unpunished. Will a Rashemi boy with a talent for magic be taken in to be trained as a witch were he to simply assume a female identity, then? Will a character like Shar-Teel from BG1 think that a female-identifying man is anything but a fraud in her eyes? What would the girdle of masculinity/femininity even do to a non-binary character? Rather than tackle what would arise as subjects if identity comes into play, it is simply ignored with such an implementation, so, again, it rings hollow. And there's romances. There was plentiful arguing already as to how making everybody "player-sexual" basically denies the portrayal of any sexuality in the companions, be it straight, homosexual, or bisexual, but with gender identity being thrown into the mix the whole picture becomes even more convoluted when considered, especially since it's apparently the identity RATHER than sex that comes into play during, well, sex (yes, I did create a male-identifying female character to check which version of the Minthara scene will be used for research purposes), resulting in a rather, um, anatomically incorrect scene which is even more awkward and rather absurd-looking from the animation point of view (somewhat muddying the implications of the fact that Larian did bother to make 4 scenes to account for both sexes and both options there!). It... wouldn't exactly work with a male/male scene for example, I am afraid, once these are in. Which version would then be used for a non-binary character, and how is the concept of "affirmation" even regarded there? And why would male drow grovel before a clearly other male-looking one? And so on, and so forth.

Heck, if it's all about presentation and perception, then the game already used to have the "male" and "female" tags displayed in the character sheet (then hidden a patch or two later, which was as much a cause for an exhausted sigh on my part as was seeing that instead of improved customization options and fixed hair colours we got two heads total and an identity selector...) that specifically said that you "are perceived as others as a male/female of one of the races" or something to that extent, and we already have the Disguise Self spell which allows us to present in a different way. Polymorph Self could serve as an actual opportunity to do a complete makeover of the character. There being more situations where chosen race and sex matter would make for a far deeper roleplaying experience compared to simply chalking it all up to "identity". Let Mayrina be more at ease and open with a female character. Have Oskar, obnoxious as he is, confide in a male one. Have misogynous and misandric characters and allow the player to respond to them appropriately. Have people who are actually attracted to specifically male or female or either characters. Divinity II: Flames of Vengeance had a gender-bender theater quest that required you to use the polymorph services, so this could be the way to expand on that idea. The idenitity could still be there, but be the character's (and, perhaps, their companions', who'd address them as they wish) business - and if being misgendered prompts them to press that attack button, let it be part of the character being played. Or add a line correcting whoever misgenders you into every dialogue that can happen in. Probably not happening. Again, highlighting how such an implementation lacks actual impact in terms of role-playing and making it both offensive to people who don't want it in their games and such and potentially disappointing to those that do - though, again, someplace like Tumblr is positively climaxing (sorry) over it.

There sure were a few tangents that may have made this pseudo-rant of mine incoherent, and while I am quite certain that is, at most, screaming into the void, given how this is a WotC licensed product and their industry-standard hypocritically "supportive" opinion on the subject in question - but it's something I really felt like throwing out there as pondering material and a form of feedback after playing around with Patch 9 (which is a really good patch - reactions and level 5 are here at last! - although I did hope there will be at least one more large update before the release date, and was confused not to see the shadow-cursed lands added despite them being teased in the Game Awards trailer. And paladins being deity-less is odd, to say the least...), in an environment that wouldn't devolve into the most unpleasant and hateful individuals from both sides of the argument throwing excrement at each other and exchanging titles like <insert slur> and "snowflake" (Steam forums) or the topic just getting immediately nuked and removed from existence because contradicting the narrative even in a rationalized form is not allowed (Reddit).

Even if the aforementioned idea is out of the question because of how it may be perceived as "hateful", or "offensive", or "discriminatory", suspension of disbelief and every other form of discrimination the game already has be damned, it'd at least be a considerate move, in my opinion, to allow people who are bothered by the very presence of a gender identity option either out of plain old bigotry or because they are genuinely offended by the concept on account of the negative connotations associated with it (which I'd rather not delve too deeply into so that this post does not invariably cross the line that it already may have anyway), to not have it in the game at all or at least have it be hidden behind a checkbox or something ("Custom identity", for example), whereas those who are for some reason, that, I am afraid, I am too narrow-minded or not socially aware enough to comprehend, feel euphoria from having their character in a game be referred to by their preferred pronouns or don't mind the fact that the interactions and dialogues suddenly become, um, modernized or downright absurd at times would just install a free DLC or tick said checkbox. The DLC approach will also serve as a good customer data point, as to see just how many people are actually interested in or cannot play without having the option, while those who are upset at the very sight of it for whichever reason - perhaps even because they don't consider it an appropriate way of representation! - can have a game that just does not contain said option. It, at least to me, seems like a solution that would in some capacity appease both sides in the argument.

Or you could just rewrite and revoice the whole game so that the PC and everyone else are treated equally rather than the player character being the only one (I guess there's also Yrre the Sparkstruck, who is very bad with names for inventions, I must say, and whom many seem to just agree on being a lady, last I checked) with identity mattering over their perceiveable sex. I doubt that's happening. All in all, I would argue that having no option at all, which didn't exactly preclude anybody from playing the game and not going on rants while still head-canoning their characters as whatever identity they desired while they were seen as the sex they were (going back to the few paragraphs earlier as to how it makes sense considering every other instance of gendering others), would be better than having it in the form introduced, which contradicts the rest of the writing and world-building and results in culture warfare over a part of the franchise that many people are nostalgic about (I guess it's not new for it, though, going back to the Siege of Dragonspear days)...