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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jul 2020
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Omg, I didn't even think about Mask of the Betrayer. Yes. That system was very good. It was always a hard choice, do I want this powerful ability and risk possibly dying from not being able to consume enough spirits?
The more you used the Curse the more powerful you became but this also made you need to consume more spirits. Also using the abilities also made your hunger go down faster but the abilities were scaled so well that using them made the game easier but the game also became harder because of the hunger level.
Edit: Also the more you used the Curse the less control over it you had. It also made the "evil" playthrough much more relatable. Doing everything you can to sustain yourself makes sense. In fact, I think the best playthrough of MotB is as a good character who slowly gets eroded by the curse and is forced to make some of the pragmatic evil choices. In later playthroughs, it's easy to metagame the curse, so you still have to kind of force yourself into that playthrough, but the mechanics make it much more satisfying. The dynamic with the tadpole is very different. It just feels neutered. Like, there's the one scene where Omeluum tries to help, and the narrator describes in vivid detail how the tadpole grows a bit and presumably displaces part of our brain, and I guess this is ... fine? Yeah, let's keep doing that. Part of the problem is that the Emperor is both a manipulative bastard but also completely honest when it comes to the tadpole. That brain worm? Yeah, let it grow more powerful, it's all good. And it is all good, when it really didn't need to be.
Last edited by Gottfried; 18/11/23 05:01 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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I never played MotB but I played the BG series and in it resisting the pull of evil came with mechanical benefits - lesser benefits to be sure but benefits nonetheless. I wish there'd be a way to get rid of the Emperor earlier, release Orpheus, side with him and get some mechanical bonus from him in return. That said, for me the mechanics wasn't the motivation to use the tadpoles. But when Lae'zel saw Orpheus sacrificing himself to become a mindflayer , I couldn't keep her from following his lead and devouring the whole pile of tadpoles within a second. Agreed completely. And if you just save the tadpoles for one time there is a cosmetic downside you can gobble them like gummie worms with no consequences. @Dangerferret happy to spoiler my response  but I wonder if @flyimar would be willing to alter the title to allow spoilers? I took the title to be inherently spoilerly. but he's definitely used to having the final word and getting his way. And Tav does have the option to respond to a push to use the tadpoles with, "I'm trying to have it removed. I thought you were helping me." You're right that is a good dialogue option. And he follows it making it clear that he wants you to transform into a half illithid and eventually a full mind flayer. But we're still on rails. He may be used to having the final word - it's a character trait that makes me like him all the less - but the game doesn't have to assist him. If he is taking away our agency that's great and will make the moment we turn a tables all the better - but if the game decides that Tav is going to be struck mute at that moment that's not something I enjoyed. At the least we should be able to make it clear that we see this a betrayal. Compare this to a similar moment in WotR. At a similar point in the story, right after a hard won battle, the equivalent the Guardian The Queen strips the MC of formal title, critiques the MC's actions and upbraids even the most loyal follower. The commander has been betrayed at the moment of her victory! And the player can choose to respond to a host of ways - they can respond with heavenly grace and request a reevaluation, with disinterested reserve and submission, with rebellious spite or demonic fury. You can vow to take revenge or you can decide be the better person. And later you can either receive an apology or you can have your revenge. In all cases the choice you made is vindicated. But this game is so told from the POV of the guardian that most fans describe the release of Orpheus as a betrayal. Which only makes sense if you saw the guardian as an ally an not an evil mastermind. Why isn't my POV supported by the text: the betrayed the party. He betrayed us when he told us to seek a cure and only later revealed that he didn't believe a cure existed and that he wants us to transform. and he's also not objectively evil Oh come now He mentally enslaved a woman, took over her criminal enterprise, he eats people, and his criminal empire is controlled secretly controlled by a devil
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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I was very disappointed by this. I played without using tadpole powers or consuming tadpoles. I also kept Illithid wisdom checks to a minimum precisely because I didn't want consequences and was very surprised to find out at the end that it was all for nothing.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2021
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To my understanding:
When it comes to the big astral tadpole that unlocks the extra illithid powers...
1. If you haven't used any tadpoles thus far, you can just say no.
2. If you have used the other regular tadpoles, you have to make a high DC check to say no and avoid using it.
(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the way it works.)
*
Say what you will, but I consider the black veins all over my face and body to be a pretty big downside.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jun 2022
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Same. I care tremendously about how my character looks, so having black squid juice all over my face is a major no-no. Even taking the wrong color intensity in character creation was enough to delete my entire playthrough before the Mirror was added 
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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Say what you will, but I consider the black veins all over my face and body to be a pretty big downside. Except it isn't as no one else in the game seem to notice and absolutely nothing of the plot changes.
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veteran
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Joined: Oct 2021
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Say what you will, but I consider the black veins all over my face and body to be a pretty big downside. Except it isn't as no one else in the game seem to notice and absolutely nothing of the plot changes. I notice. Your argument seems to be coming from a strange place, at least to my reckoning. Do you not care what your character looks like? Do you think other players don't care what their character looks like, in general? Would it suddenly be a bigger drawback to you if NPCs said something like, "Egads, that face!" when you walked by them? * I'm legitimately trying to understand. I get the feeling that people want, either: 1. Something good to happen to those who don't use parasites... but they have no idea what good thing should happen or how to explain it in game, or 2. Something bad to happen to characters who do use the parasites... but it should be worse than destroying the look of their character. In which case it should be... thus far, I've only heard a suggestion that it should become increasingly hard not to use the tadpole power in dialogue. Which I guess means a loss of control over personality? * Don't get me wrong. I certainly think there's room for improvement on the system. I'm just not hearing anything that feels better yet.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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Say what you will, but I consider the black veins all over my face and body to be a pretty big downside. Except it isn't as no one else in the game seem to notice and absolutely nothing of the plot changes. I notice. Your argument seems to be coming from a strange place, at least to my reckoning. Do you not care what your character looks like? Do you think other players don't care what their character looks like, in general? Would it suddenly be a bigger drawback to you if NPCs said something like, "Egads, that face!" when you walked by them? * I'm legitimately trying to understand. I get the feeling that people want, either: 1. Something good to happen to those who don't use parasites... but they have no idea what good thing should happen or how to explain it in game, or 2. Something bad to happen to characters who do use the parasites... but it should be worse than destroying the look of their character. In which case it should be... thus far, I've only heard a suggestion that it should become increasingly hard not to use the tadpole power in dialogue. Which I guess means a loss of control over personality? * Don't get me wrong. I certainly think there's room for improvement on the system. I'm just not hearing anything that feels better yet. No, I don't. At least not insofar as counting it as consequences. Ideally what should happen is that quests, including the main ones have different ways of solving them and using/not using tadpoles closes of some ways. Like not being able to infiltrate moonrise without some tadpoles but also when never using them never being forced to do something or being able to gain the trust of certain NPCs. And there should be different endings exclusively reachable for heavy tadpole users and people who don't use or remove them. But nothing of that happens. The game is the same weather you use the tadpoles or not, despite Larian saying differently a few days before release. Hence, no consequences.
Last edited by Ixal; 18/11/23 09:24 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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1. Something good to happen to those who don't use parasites... but they have no idea what good thing should happen or how to explain it in game, or There are a number of ideas. I liked the BG1 model - you get something by trying to avoid becoming an evil monster. What that might be? 1. You are resisting power so: Resistance against psychic attacks? Increased wisdom saves? 2. Or, since these are tainted by the Netherese magic: any number of magic abilities. Something that duplicates spells in the game or some new ones. 3. Or, since the protection comes from Orpheus and he's a monk - so abilities that duplicate or enhance monk skills? Explaining in the game? We have something with the Jaheria tadpole - they vibrate near each other. Explaining it? How about the powers develop when we crush the tadpoles we find? ". . . your tadpole sends out waves of psychic vibrations. Its vibrations come to match those of the tadpole in your hand. It feels . . . sympathy? empathy? Both tadpoles vibrate at the same frequency and yours wants commune, to join, to become one with the other tadpole. It wants to share and absorb this tadpole memories and to help you evolve. **crush tadpole** Your tadpole spasms, it feels so much pain - it's been injured and its presence somehow feels smaller in your mind. And you feel . . . stronger, better, freer"
Last edited by KillerRabbit; 18/11/23 10:05 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
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I get the feeling that people want, either:
1. Something good to happen to those who don't use parasites... but they have no idea what good thing should happen or how to explain it in game, or With respect, a few people have given some quite clear ideas of what they'd like. I know I indicated, when you first asked, that what I wanted for not using them or using them minimally, was a path to an ending that does succeed in finding a better solution and doesn't involve sacrificing someone body and soul to becoming a mindflayer (or sacrificing them in other explosive ways); a possibility that, if we have been using the tadpoles, is perceptually filtered from even occurring to us at a psychic level that we are unable to recognise or be aware of if we've gone too far.
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veteran
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Joined: Mar 2020
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And I would say that changing the end game would be highest priority even if I would like some mechanical benefits for no tadpole parties as well.
As it is the end game feels like a defeat - as Niara says you need to sacrifice someone body and soul to complete the game. Unless you ally with an evil mastermind who has lied to you and manipulated your from the start and I can't imagine playing a Tav that would make that decision.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jun 2022
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I think the way they could have nicely balanced out using tadpoles vs not using tadpoles is by actually making them an interesting Purity Vs Corruption seesaw mechanic by taking the current brain system and have it act as a choice between the two.For example here's a concept;- Choosing to remain pure or consume tadpoles would benefit the player based on this choice by providing miniscule passives or alternative Illithid abilities.
- Where there is an actual passive offered however such as the Favorable Beginnings; the benefit would either defensively affect the player or offensively affect the enemy.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/amTyEXw.jpg) And the way the player would get to unlock them;- Illithid abilities could be unlocked at any point by consuming tadpoles, since they act as a powerful temptation in the story
- In order to unlock Purity passives however; the player would have to progress the story up to a certain point without consuming any tadpoles. If they resist the temptation, then for example at the end of ACT 1 when speaking to the Guardian they'd be able to fortify parts of their brain against the tadpole's influence and become able to unlock the purity passives as a reward.
- By using the Illithid Wisdom dialogue choices without consuming any tadpoles; the Purity bonuses would decrease by 10% for each use up to a maximum of a 50% if the player gains the True Soul tag, since this actually slightly reduces willpower which is reflected by the story in ACT 3 through Wisdom checks.
This way this whole system would not just be a "consume & forget munching simulator", but act as an emphasis of Corruption vs Willpower. And more importantly would not clash against the lore of the tadpoles enhancing us.
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veteran
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Joined: Mar 2020
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@crimsonrider I like that. Send it to Larian!
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jun 2022
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Here is a more beautified version of it that is easier on the eyes. Representing the stage at which the player remained pure long enough that their Willpower can fortify parts of the brain against the tadpole's influence and thus unlock Purity bonuses as a reward; - Remaining pure throughout ACT 1 fortifies the first tier of the brain
- Remaining pure throughout ACT 2 fortifies the second tier of the brain
- And denying the Astral tadpole in ACT 3 fortifies the third tier of the brain
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/RlIiPA5.jpg) And the way we actually get to spend points on these is by crushing the tadpoles, thus giving some depth to that part of the story as well.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
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That does look pretty neat.
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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Crimsonrider:
That looks really good. I agree,send it as a suggestion to Larian.
JandK:
Not everyone cares about their character looks or maybe even like it , because it looks edgy and evil and some people dig it.
I do care for my characters look, but I still think this is a low price to pay. You consume all this tadpoles and the only consequences are some black veins and a check, if you consume a more powerful tadpole?
You put stuff in your body, you are not supposed to be putting there, there should be more.
Plus, there is no reaction from companions or other NPCs.
I don't necessarily need a reward for not consuming the tadpoles, other than be able to get better endings.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2020
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Personally I find it refreshing since ingame there is just no way of knowing whether or not there will be consequences same as in real life - it's a gamble.
Also I would argue that using tadpole powers while somewhat repulsive is not evil per se but pragmatic decision to use every power available against a formidable army of enemies - it also stands to argue that not using them could be counted as somewhat irresponsible or ignorant at least later in the game when there is tangible evidence you'd have been a mindflayer a long time ago without the prism/Emperor/Orpheus so like it or not - you do owe him.
And there is a matter of Astral tadpole that a PC who has never dabbed into tadpole powers can simply refuse while the others need to pass some pretty steep dicerolls and possibly turn into something against their wish - I'm pretty sure that's something one would percieve as pretty big punishment RP wise.
Better endings? Why? It's highly debatable and even less provabale you get a better ending by being a good person IRL - so why should THIS game be any different, it's a moral and philosophical decision which I find highly refreshing, just because we're used to cliches in games/movies/books certainly doesn't mean they should be followed or that a game would be better for it.
TLDR: a hard NO
Last edited by Azarielle; 19/11/23 11:08 AM.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Personally I find it refreshing since ingame there is just no way of knowing whether or not there will be consequences same as in real life - it's a gamble. With all due respect, none of this is true at all. Not even in the slightest. The game tells you outright that there are consequences. The first time you use a tadpole, the narrator says you feel yourself lose something you will never get back. There are multiple instances of this. The tadpole menu itself shows the advancing destruction of your brain. Saying it's pragmatic also makes no sense given that menus. It's not about it being evil, it's about it literally destroying your brain. Not transforming != getting your brain back. It's like having a real time simulation of your lungs and saying smoking is the 'pragmatic' choice when you can get by just fine without it. The problem is that what the game says will happen and what actually happens are at odds. Better endings? Why? It's highly debatable and even less provabale you get a better ending by being a good person IRL - so why should THIS game be any different, it's a moral and philosophical decision which I find highly refreshing, just because we're used to cliches in games/movies/books certainly doesn't mean they should be followed or that a game would be better for it.
TLDR: a hard NO As far as better endings go, you might have a point in any game but this one. You know, the game that already decided that evil playthroughs get punished IRL with less content and already makes good playthroughs superior objectively and has very few nuanced choices in its writing is the last place I would look for any kind of moral subversions.
Last edited by Rahaya; 19/11/23 03:38 PM.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Jan 2021
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There are more ways to do 'good' endings than just rewarding players who refuse to give into the temptation. Yout had to *work* for your 'good' endings in Mask of the Betrayer IIRC. The 'pure' ending and 'god eater' ending both required you jump through some hoops to reach. Becoming a mindflayer with its consciousness intact like the prophecy foretold that people were speculating was going to be a part of the plot? could have been a special ending with certain requirements like using the tadpoles a lot, something you earned/worked towards instead of just a choice everyone got. Getting the tadpoles removed should have been one too, since that was something they said was going to be an option earlier in EA. Things in-between too.
You shouldn't make a game where the main driving motivation presented to the player is removing/using brain parasites and the consequences thereof and then just not engage with that plot hook except in the most cursory manner.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2019
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Using or not using the tadpole is also a story choice which the story reacts to, as has been pointed out already. Proof;There are numerous other situations where the story keeps reacting to tadpole usage as well, such as companions and their reactions. The consequences regarding the tadpole is mostly tied to the giga-tadpole as soon as the player gets into ACT 3, at which point there is no more playing around the bush if the player chooses to consume it, which comes with immediate consequences and opportunities. Whether they're meaningful or not, subjective opinion that is entirely irrelevant. It's a choice which the story reacts to, therefore not an exclusively gameplay only choice. This is what is a "consequence" for you? This is nothing. It is less than nothing. It is entirely, 100% cosmetic. As I've already, this is an all benefits no costs choice, and as such is no real choice at all. It is the equivalent of someone saying they played the whole game without ever using any potions or scrolls. One could play the game this way of course, which would make it a "choice," but it would be a meaningless and, frankly, silly choice that isn't worth talking about.
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![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/vj3CRpn.jpg)