Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Was BG3 overly sexualized?

That is not the case.
Even "romance" scenes must be planned, dialoge (before and after the scene) must be written, the lines recorded, the animation has to be recorded and has to got through post production which is rather lengthy compared to other animations because of the close interaction between characters and it must be tested.

It would have been far easier to add additional dialoge for underused characters or revise some of the more cringeworth dialogue (Viconia, Sarevok, Gortash, Cazador). Imo even an entire 3rd Emperor - Orpheus path would have been compareable in effort to adding more kissing and romance senses.

And while Belgium is not hire-and-fire, they too use outsourcing which the credits also confirm. So no, they did not have some animators and intimacy coordinators sitting around and had to be given a task. And even if, there would have been much more important things for them to do to increase the quality of the game than kissing scenes.

The romance scenes we got were mostly hugs and kissing animations.

From the kissing interactions of Lae˚zel and Shadowheart (the ones I know) there are about 4 spoken lines, chosen randomly (not connected to the animation), and these do not interact with the situation before and after. So, yes, post-production is a thing, but besides that, there’s no plot interaction, no changed dialogue outside the scene.

For example the motion capture?

For the voice actors those romance scenes will likely be pretty nice to plan: every character has roughly the same number of lines.

And though I already said it: looking at the reaction to the new romance scenes, I doubt that other scenes would have had a similar or higher impact with the same or lower amount of work.

(… though I would actually like to also have the previous kissing animation, simply as randomly chosen interaction, because it was far too good to throw away)

I'm glad that you and Lae'zel turned out to have such a great relationship, and that no one tried to use your beloved companion for the purpose of "moral lessons" by inflicting psychological damage on the player through the addition of traumatic sexualized scenes. I know the romance with Lae'zel is great and many people like it. My experience with the game, unfortunately, was quite different. In the case of the romance with Astarion, the player's punishment for "making the wrong choice" comes not in the form of any plot consequences that could somehow be logically justified, but in the form of three added scenes of sexualized violence that were called "kisses" and presented as a "Valentine's Day gift." "A gift" that ruined the love of this game for many players who choose to play this walkthrough, and instead of which additional dialogue could very well have been added and improved the game for all players. The romance with Astarion (with Ascension) is a deep monogamous relationship, symbolizing marriage in many ways. Astarion calls Tav "consort," "Aeterna Amantes. Lovers forever, until the world falls down." sounds like the marriage vow "Till death do us part," and even the meaning of the expression that Tav is now wearing a kind of "collar" regularly used by opponents of this romance became clear to me only after I learned that a "collar" happens to be what anti-marriage activists call a wedding ring. For Tav in some scenes of this romance there are not even adequate and dignified lines, but there are many lines for scolding, for the sake of preserving the romance in one of the scenes you have to kind of sign that "you like to degrade yourself", there is no possibility to explain or say something different, because it is a "rail" scene with only one possible choice. Fixing the lines in the scene and giving the player the option to roleplay instead of sexualized content would be much more useful for an RPG game in my opinion.

Another example is Minthara vs. Halsin. Minthara is a smart, interesting, monogamous character. Halsin is not clever, rather vapid, polyamorous, tries to meddle in your relationship, making attempts not only on you, which is quite usual in this game, but also on the most precious one - your partner. Minthara is much harder to get as a companion (they've simplified it now), but when I went through the game the first time without spoilers, the only way to at least think that this was a possible companion and not a regular "boss" in the game was to see the camp clothes on her when searching her after a fight. She is positioned as a companion for the "evil" player who wants to destroy the grove and enter the cult, Halsin is for the "good" one, he is much easier to get, especially while the player has no preconceptions about him, doesn't know Minthara's character, and has no idea how he and Minthara will behave later on.

There is also quite a bit of content in the game dealing with cheating, the "choice between the two", and the breakup of relationships. Lots of lines and reactions from the romantic companion to the various choices of cheating, but not a single line, reaction or approval in response to true fidelity. For example, the fact that Astarion notices Halsin's feelings and worries about it, I only found out after reading about it from other players, because to get this dialog you have to agree to Halsin's proposal, when you refuse Halsin right away, there will be no dialog. If the player has been avoiding any situation where there is even a hint of infidelity (funny, but because of the regular advances from companions, a slight paranoia develops about any, even innocent scenes, I was even afraid to hug Karlach in the scene where she regains the ability to touch, for fear of "what she might think", although in any other game I would have taken it as a friendly scene), in this case there will be no plot, lines and approvals. I don't know the details regarding how other romances play out, maybe Lae'zel or someone else has some sort of reaction to fidelity. In the case of Astarion, who is deeply in need of love, fidelity could add to his confidence and affect the relationship, but that would be a plot part of the romance rather than a sexual one, which is perhaps not as interesting to the "mass audience", so it's not spelled out or added. But you can hurt him in a "threesome with Halsin", drag him into a brothel, which is much worse than the manipulative remarks in the same brothel towards Gale, given that Gale (as written about him) doesn't become a victim, but finds a nice way out of the situation, leaving his projection in his place. Of Astarion is allowed to be made a "sex toy" despite everything he's been through, no "moral sanctions" for that, "sanctions" only for helping him in his plot quest, for "evil choices". Why an "evil choice" has to be associated with sexualization, and even in this format, is incomprehensible to me. And before BG3, there were polyamorous characters and polyamorous relationship options in games that didn't elicit any negative reaction; I myself had a romance with Daeran in Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous, which was intended to be a pansexual polyamorous character, and other players have written about how I can't remember which of the other companions he might have a joint romance with anymore, but it wasn't enforced in any way, he didn't drag Tav to a brothel, the relationship was good, no cruelty despite his NE alignment, no over-sexualization, just a story. I think this is the way to show different variants of relationships between people in games - calmly, as a normal part of life, without imposing anything, and if there are romances in the game, then give the opportunity for communication, mutual affection and devotion, give the player the opportunity to roleplay, the opportunity to love, care and please a companion, not " thirsty romantic animations".

I wouldn't call that a "nice way out". Both Astarion and Gale have a very similar reaction to the orgy, they just deal with it through their personal brands of distancing themselves from what causes them distress. Gale probably has one of his "I am not enough" meltdowns on the balcony after he leaves.

Astarion is also the only character where I think the Act2 love-triangle situation does provide some meaningful addition to the story. I had the dance scene with Wyll once and during the morning after had a short scene with Astarion which showed that his whole affair with the PC maybe meant more to him than casual sex after all, and makes him commit to a proper relationship (if that's the route you choose). I thought that was a really nicely done, interesting scene - it's just bothersome that you have to first make him jealous to get there.

In this respect, indeed, the relationships in the game develop so much into a certain trajectory, that choosing seemingly friendly lines, you may find yourself flirting with a character and already in a love triangle. I'd drink wine with Shadowheart, or dance with Will, or practice magic with Gale, he's a good teacher. But those are bits of romance, not friendly interaction, and you just won't see them without getting into the romance. Refusing to kiss Will, he stands a sour face, Shadowhart drinks alone for the rest of the game, Gale is eating of magic boots and suffers for an ex gerl. At least Carlach can be hugged without repercussions. And Laezel, Astarion, and Mintara without it at all, the plot is a plot, but the bushes are on schedule.

On the one hand, it may be fine when you're just choosing who you're going to go down this path with, but when the choice has already been made, there's no reward for the choice, only the opportunity to try 'everything. "Like, hey, it's a game, why be boring and limit yourself to 1 choice, take it all!"
I was unpleasantly surprised when Halsin, after defeating my brain said, "well that's it, bye-bye, the jungle is calling me." "I got you out of the goblin cage, I killed Mintara, I cured the lands of the curse, and you tell me bye?". Hmmm, I'd rather take the "Eternal amantes" and "collar" or loyal Laezel, or Mintara. But that's just my opinion, not a call to action.
Having said all that, the hot scene with Mintara doesn't get fixed (don't cut or abbreviate it), whereas with Ascended Astarion, I lost count of how many times that poor candle was inserted and removed from the stage.

We can sleep with anyone, but we can't give gifts to our love interest (with the exception of Shadowheart). A statue? A portrait? Flowers? A hug? That's part of romance, not bed.

Or we can end an old relationship and start a new one before Act 3, but we can't say something nice to our partner after Act 2, when it's obvious you're going to end the game with him. We can drag him/her to a brothel, though.

But that's to the question of who comes to the game for what. For the opportunity to try "everything", there really is "everything". And that's a plus.
For those who don't want it, there are opportunities to avoid it, thankfully. (Not counting the kiss AA.)
What's missing is the candy-bouquet period.

As Harlep said, "Let's play the game, take your pants off."

New: With the egg and Laezel, I'm really glad they added dialog. It was straight up missing, and it's really nice.

While I would love to give Spawn Astarion a portrait, you can get presents for some of your companions, though they are less casual than Shart's flower & statue. Astarion is very grateful to be given the "The Necromancy of Thay" It's maybe not a super cute classical romancy present, but gifting someone the tools to understand their condition better, and give them an edge in the fight against their old master is quite a nice gift. Same goes for the "Annals of Karsus" which Gale desperately wants and the Orphic Hammer for Lae'zel. The recent addition of text options to give the egg into her care make this quest feel like you are doing something for her too.

No objections to more chances to be nice to my character's partner and friends but breaking into secret vaults to steal books or a hammer of legend for them, are perfect "dates" or bonding experiences. =D Heist dates are the best dates.

JFC, no-one is dragging Astarion to the brothel against his will. Depending on what stage his personal quest and romance is at, he'll decline sex. You don't even have the option to persuade him into it like you do with Gale. If he does accept, then he consents to a scene that he wasn't ready for, and the only issue that I have with the whole situation, is that your character should have had the option of stopping the scene when they noticed he wasn't okay, but you don't. This whole game is actually awful about aftercare, but that's a personal peeve of mine that not everyone shares.

At no point while i was romancing either Lae'zel or Wyll did I ever feel like the game was punishing me for not being poly. Realising i had locked myself out of seeing certain options if i wanted to keep romancing one person was mildly disappointing, at worst. As I've already said, Halsin is easy to shut down, tell him no one time and it never comes up again, hardly meddling. The game gave me plenty of options and warnings about their preferences (based on the dialogue that occurs if they are in your party), and how they would likely react to infidelity. Amazingly, i did not cheat on them, and wasn't at any point forced into doing so, nor made to feel bad about not doing so. The run where I romanced Lae'zel was also a Durge run where i raided the grove, killed everyone at the last light inn, and dominated the brain in the name of Bhaal, so quite evil.

The only time i ever found myself in a sudden and unexpected love triangle, was when i changed my mind about who i was trying to romance during a run. I flirted with Gale in the early game and tripped his initial romance flag, but then locked in a relationship with another character, which prompted a conversation with Gale. It was a sad conversation but surprisingly reasonable about wanting different things.

Probably, but he does avoid direct involvement and physical violation of his boundaries, which is what I think is most important, after all. Even just imagining myself in the shoes of one or the other, it's much scarier and worse in Astarion's shoes. If I were Gale, of course, I'd probably have emotional trauma, intense disappointment in my partner, and most likely a desire to break off the relationship with a partner like Tav, but Astarion - he's letting himself be used again, he's even pretending it's okay, overstepping his bounds, like when Tav encourages him to bite Oblodra. And in the Spawn Astarion video, you can see from the first frames how awful it really is, while in the Ascended Astarion video it's unclear at first, he's too good at holding his own, and only the ending is equally heavy-handed in both cases. Yes, it can easily be avoided without hearing about it from other players or watching the video, I would probably have a better opinion of the game, but it seems wrong to me to allow a game to taunt a loved one in such a way, especially since the game tries to teach "morality lessons" to the player elsewhere.


Yeah, it turns out that a player who doesn't want to cheat on Astarion on principle won't get an interesting scene and won't know what the romance with them means to Astarion, just like in the scene after the dialog with Halsin. Either going over themselves, breaking the roleplay, making Astarion jealous to get to that scene, which is something I absolutely hate to do, or again, video only, and there is no content in the game for such a player. Yes, there are various heavy scenes that I wouldn't want to initiate with my hand in my own game and the fact that other people's videos allow me to watch them and learn more about the character, that's fine for a game with different choices, but still I don't think it should apply to those romantic dialogues that show the importance of the novel to the character, a similar dialog with some changes could happen for example after Tav rejected all other possible companions. This would be fair and create a balance between all the roleplay options.


100% true. Gifts can be given, but only in your headcanon, within gameplay. You can make a statue of your lover, you can draw a portrait (by putting Astarion in front of Oscar in the dialog and getting some weird picture without a face in your inventory based on the results), but no, not even a small replica of it. Once upon a time long before patch 6 I remember defending romance in BG3 in one dialog, arguing with someone who claimed that all the "deep romance" was only in my head, now having appreciated the whole game I realize how right he was.

We already have a thread for discussing Astarion's romance, and it's not this one.

I personally think it's obvious that a priori one should not do that to him, besides Astarion often hides his feelings under a mask, but really, if it turns out that the scene can't even be stopped (it's harder to tell on video), as you say, then it's also cruel to the player, there's no way to even correct the mistake. If it was possible to stop, it might still make some sense, not just a brutal scene for the sake of the scene itself.

I agree.

Frankly, all this Astarion stuff is turning into spam.

Basically what Piff said, Astarion can make his decisions, before the ritual he says no, afterwards he gives it a try but wasn't ready for it. The only issue is, that you cannot show concern for him when things go wrong.

You also do not cheat on him in Act1 or early Act 2 respectively, because you are not in a relationship with him at that time, you are just a casual bit of fun with no strings attached. The conversation, I mentioned, is a very nice transition from the fake manipulative situation to something more real (which I found very rewarding). I wouldn't call it an encouragement to date multiple characters though, it's more a thing that comes up if you did. In Astarion's case - as mentioned in the other thread about dialogue options - it would have been nice to have dialogue to address how fake the moonlight date or the follow-up rendezvous are while they happen because I feel this would be important or at least an interesting conversation to have.

There also is no need for a special fidelity scene because fidelity is what most characters assume to be normal. For Astarion your commitment during Act1 only indicates that his plan works, there is no additional friction that would require him to think about those pesky feelings or open up about them. But as Piff said, there are already more than enough threads about Astarion specifically.

If you get aggressive about mentioning only a certain character, we can talk without naming names. But that might cause some confusion in understanding.
Is the scene with **** sexualized? In my opinion, oh yes, it is. Especially when several other characters are watching you, in fact participating. Which scene am I talking about?
Name is given as an example and explanation related to the topic, аnd to justify point of view.

Is it worth mentioning, everyone primarily associates the BG3 with the bear and the squid? Or bear and...oh, no, no name.
"Ha ha, yeah this is the same game where..." - Further, the continuation everyone will insert for themselves.

Returning to the topic, the game provides the possibilities of up and right, down and left, animals, boys, girls, low and high. A true simulation with a story. With no consequences. Is that a good thing? Well, supply begets demand, demand begets supply.
And this also applies not only to the character Tav and his interactions with companions, but also to simple npcs who, claim their connections, even if the player did not ask about it.
In my opinion in the game, the theme of sex takes precedence over friendship and romantic interactions. But I'm not judging.

Since I have a good and detailed understanding specifically of my own romance in the game, I can give examples from it as an answer to the question:


Which was addressed to me. Good thing ArneBab had a different experience, I only tried to explain what "moral lessons" are taught to players in another romance, and why I drew such conclusions about this game. I can judge other players' romances from some videos and posts by the players themselves, but that judgment will not be as complete and objective as the judgment of those players who went through the game with those romances. It's true that when talking about other romances, one immediately thinks of the posts full of anger and pain by Shadowheart fans on the subject of the Shadowheart/Halsin relationship. This anger is completely justified; these players too took their favorite character seriously and reverently in a simulation game: "possibilities of up and right, down and left, animals, boys, girls, low and high". The Shadowheart/Halsin example is an example of obsessive polygamy that doesn't take into account the feelings of the real people playing the game. Of course, it's rather ridiculous with this approach to expect such psychological realism from a game as a response to loyalty from a romantic companion. This would no longer be more of a complaint about BG3, but a speculation about what is worth considering in a game with a variety of romances if the game wants to be realistic and show different sides of human characters through their reactions to player interaction. In BG3, it is officially considered that the player in Act 1 and the beginning of Act 2 "is not in a relationship, but just having fun with no strings attached", and the uninformed player, thinking they already have a romance, doesn't understand why the game doesn't take this into account, why these relationships look like the characters are hiding them, inventing headcanons to explain to themselves the reason for this need to hide relationships. It's pretty funny.


I hate the "bear scene" with pure hatred. I don't want to mention the name myself when talking about it. If I had seen such an "advertisement" before buying the game, I wouldn't have bought it. I found out about this scene by accident at the moment when I was still in great delight with the game, somewhere, I think, in Act 1. The emotion of this scene cannot be described in a public conversation, as the words that are allowed to be used would not be able to fully express it. There are many deep and subtle moments in the game, including psychological moments expressed through facial expressions, glances, shades of voice, and the versatility of characters' personalities. You can see a "fake manipulative situation", you can pick up on other things, you can see willingness and consent, you can understand what's behind it, great acting and the complexity of the character allows for both. And next to that is "bear sex." And this sort of thing happens periodically throughout the play, subtlety interspersed with vulgarity.


That's a great point! Indeed, NPCs regularly talk about their connections just out of the blue, in reality people don't do that, it's really a bit weird.

I am afraid getting beaten over the head with a club is not particularly deep or subtle, but to each their own.

Myself, I am giving second thoughts to my already rather either-wayly plans to maybe give the game another go after accidentally stumbling upon that one Halsin-related dialogue line about becoming "closer to nature". It was one of those moments when reading something is almost physically painful.

It was something you'd expect out of a sloppy hentai fanfic, not a Baldur's Gate game. They could have handled romances in a pure, aesthetically pleasing format (like in Mask of the Betrayer) or actually been more mature with their mature subject matter (like the Witcher which, while it has its share of raunchy humour, never quite falls to that low a level). Instead all that's missing is pain/hysterical laughter-inducing voiceover during the scenes themselves, but I guess the VAs weren't quite ready to embarass themselves that much, never mind the reality of that all their characters that people now associate those actors with (like how Andrew Wincott suddenly became known for being Raphael despite having been in the industry for decades at this point...) ended up being good for in the end is r34(-adjacent) art and fanfiction. Something-something reap what you sow with your marketing something.

Subtle is definitely not a word i would use to describe anything in this game, not the romances either. From Astarion's cringe-inducing penny romance lines, to Lae'zel's incredibly aggressive courtship that left me concerned for my character's health, ending with the "Nature inside me...." line , it's certainly been... something. I didn't expect subtlety to begin with, though, I made it through the entire EA after all, so I'm not that disappointed.

I bet they only got away with that line because no one had to voice it. There are some truly awful lines that our player character can say that have derailed my entire thought process in the middle of a conversation.

There is subtlety in the superb acting of Neil Newbon. Emma Gregory, Andrew Wincott, and many other actors are also superbly acted.

Astarion impresses not only with his lines, but also with his facial expressions, movements, and voice intonations. I really love his romance of the first act, it's really seductive, and somewhat reminiscent of the seduction in the style of a flamboyant pushy young nobleman from 18th - 19th century novels, there's a bit of a modernization when he voices what exactly he meant, but it doesn't spoil it. It's clear that he's not in love, and such an untrusting character with his history can't be in love, you still have to earn his trust, but his scenes evoked real emotion from me, and that's the reason I agreed to turn a blind eye to all the other problems with this game. Lae'zel is shocking and makes me open my mouth in surprise on first playthrough, but that's normal for githyanki culture, it fits into her character. The really jarring part is Halsin, especially at the party. The way he looks at Tav makes me want to take a step back and put my hand on the hilt of the blade. Obviously, he's officially "kind" and isn't supposed to do anything wrong in the story, but on a feeling level, as a woman, that look makes me want to grab a weapon or take a fighting stance, just in case.

I agree about "Mask of the Betrayer" and "The Witcher." It really does show the romances in a richer, deeper, and more aesthetically pleasing way. About the awful dialog phrases, yes, more than that. Some phrases are exceptionally facepalm-inducing, I've never read sloppy fanfics before, but thanks to BG3 I had to embrace this art form as well.

From what I have read, the stage is called "flirting" which describes it pretty well for most of the characters. Apart from Astarion and Lae'zel, all of the main companions treat this stage as a getting-to-know-you stage and are quite serious about their affections. Astarion and Lae'zel on the other hand are very obvious about just wanting fun, Lae'zel tells you outright and in Astarion's case they went out of their way to indicate that he's insincere when he's buttering the player character up. I thought it was handled quite well that, while the player character is manipulated, the player is not.

I also wouldn't say that in any stage anyone is hiding a relationship, apart from looking for privacy for certain things, everyone seems to be well informed about what's up, it's just not a topic that is discussed with the group.


Some of the player dialogue lines are ... something.

Since you drew that from Ascended Astarion, I understand that it felt like it went against monogamous relationships: Ascended Astarion ist a plotline where Astarion loses his soul in exchange for power, and that manifests in the relationship.

The game “teaches” many different lessons on morality depending on the Character and decisions you choose.

For Astarion there are early signs of this darker side of the relationship.

Maybe a problem is that humans tend to get attached to a certain character, but that character doesn’t necessarily match their own ideas about life.

There’s no Ascended Astariion marriage of equal partners, just like there’s no polygamous relationship with Lae’zel. You have several “chances” to permanently lose her if you don’t respect her limits.

Some do … and it seems to feel strange to others. Look up "oversharing".

Typically in classic RPGs, the beginning of an intimate relationship implies the beginning of a romance. So in the case of Astarion and Lae'zel they should have given the player an opportunity for roleplay and a chance to talk to their partner about being together and let the people around them realize it. It's up to the companion how they react, but it would have been realistic rather than imposing on the player that they want to "just have fun".


Depending on the opinion of the particular author who didn't create the original character. "Losing his soul" - this has already been discussed in dedicated threads, and I can refute it, but it would be off topic here. In other games, "evil choices" don't lead to any perverted sexualized scenes for some reason. "Moral lessons" from a game that offers every possible form of coitus can hardly evoke anything but black irony.