Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

I think AA's new kisses and Tav's set reaction, in addition to depriving the player of agency, also reduces the possible interpretations of their relationship.
Astarion is a complex character, and should remain that way in both of his routes.

It seems like dark romances are always received negatively. Not just with BG3, but in general if there's a dark romance a lot of times you see people tearing it down and making fun of it and the people who enjoy it. Some people act like those who enjoy it don't know that it wouldn't be good in real life. So when you get a situation like this one, where something was changed that we don't like, a lot of them say "well what do you expect? It was a cycle of abuse story! He was always this way!" Even if it's just about Tav's face. It makes them feel good about themselves and they can pat themselves on the back on how media literate they are compared to people who enjoy AA. So they feel like we deserve it for not understanding the plot or something. At least that's how it comes off to me.

Yes, I agree with your opinion

It seems to me that the real problem is that if everything is fine with us AA fans, then everything is bad for spawn fans: there is no cure for vampirism, the prospect of wanderers is questionable, there is no home, spawn is tied to Tav and cannot go anywhere, because spawn cannot fully protect itself... To live forever in the Underdark among 7k ghouls who can go crazy at any moment and suck the blood out of anyone... But if we make a monster out of AA that hates Tav, then the ending is spawn Astarion and not so hopeless.

Thank you for your point of view. I agree with a lot of things. Especially with your conclusion. I am also interested in both routes.
"Leave the spawns in the cages" - it seems to me that this is the worst option, and that as far as I understand it still leads to a "good ending", which by the way is also illogical.

Yep, there are people who try to hurt or belittle other people on purpose to feel enjoyment and for their own self-enhancement . Just go and read some studies or articles about trolling and who those people really are.
In general, I suggest to read especially about troll and their character traits.


I understand you. Not everyone has compassion or sympathy with others. Also a lot of people in general are indifferent to things that don't concern them. And also, see above...

Indeed ....

My Vengeance paladin can not allow Astarion to Ascend and I need to get the spawn out of the cages one way or the other as I don't want to break my oath.
My paladin has a very much in love vampire though he was completely chasing Shadowheart
never had my Approval so high on more than 2 companions so early on.

the do not spare any evil tenet comes into question if Astarion was evil from the start then the night he tried biting me should of broken my Paladins Oath especially as I let him live.
Conclusion Astarion was never classed as an Evil entity in the game files .

Anyway I was just saying in my own curious way that people try justifying the 7000 sacrifices make him evil when the actual decision of the spawn has other consequences for a *good Playthrough.

Any way Just to round it back to the Topic *Sort out Tav's face for patch 7

It's very nice of you to be happy for others. But I'm not like that. To be honest, even if they change the expression of Tav's face in the next patch, it won't suit much for me. For me personally, patch 6 killed romance AA. It seems like such a small thing as kissing, but...

7000 spawns are technically already cursed and their souls are dead, so from the point of view of the DnD they cannot be considered "innocent". Moreover, they are already dead. Literally. Spawns are undead. So if we analyze the ritual itself and all of Astarion's behavior, then in general, he does not do anything terrible. Well, the ritual and the ritual. What difference does it make to perform a ritual and destroy the undead or just destroy the undead, thereby preventing the threat in order to protect ordinary citizens from hungry spawns. Now, if these were living people, mortals and not spawns, then this would be an evil act and a really big moral dilemma.

It is odd that UA fans get nothing and AA fans get something but it's disappointing, when it comes to patch 6. Hopefully the kisses are fixed to not disappoint AA fans. I know that AA needed his own kisses, but as an UA fan, it really feels like UA has been neglected compared to AA. Which is odd considering Larian seems to dislike AA or at least dislike anyone who enjoys him. I don't know how else to interpret the decision of Tav's expression other than they didn't want AA fans to like it. They just wanted to teach them a lesson. In the meantime, UA gets nothing. Really a shame. I guess Larian has their work cut out for them with Astarion being 2 different characters but it'd be nice if fans of the two different characters they created could get satisfying additional content.

yeah its really confusing ,I start to think that Larian actually secretly prefers AA route by giving him more dialog and kisses but at the same time didnt really wanna upset UA fans since they are in majority , hence "punishment" to AA fans with Tav's new face, i mean neglect is the most obvious way to show that you dont care about someone...like..Wyll

Well, I actually think AAstarion's path is more developed than UAstarion's. And for what reason this is so, I don’t know.

I disagree. Astarion is one of those 7000 spawns. When he ascends, he makes Cazador take his place, but he was meant to be one of those spawns. Is Astarion cursed? Yes. Is he dead? He is undead. Is his soul already dead? No. So you are sacrificing 7000 souls to make Astarion ascend. And sacrificing souls is considered worse than killing in D&D. Now, it is perfectly valid to do it and say "for me is worth it". Or even to try to justify it. People in real life also do that when doing questionable things. But the 7000 spawns have souls and the same potential to grow as persons as Astarion. Which is exactly the point UA made after not ascending. Sure, they have to deal with their instincts and many would die in the underdark (let's face it, drow and duergar are tougher than new spawns). But at least they would have a chance. Your moral dilemma is to deny 7000 souls of their afterlife and condemn them to literal hell in exchange for power (much like when Gortash sells Karlach to Zariel) or to give them a chance to become someone like Astarion: intelligent undead that can choose to feed from animals, willing people or evil people (Omelun does that last one).

Again, is a valid choice. It could be even considered "grey". But the claim that their souls are dead extends to Astarion and I don't think that is the case. He is a conscient undead able to choose his path. So are the other spawns (and the text of the father trying to protect his children shows that the other spawns are also people with feelings). Also, if the gur help with the children spawn, it is more likely some of those spawns "behave". Is it a good choice? Well, it is more a "less of two evils". But then again, Astarion is interesting because he is flawed.

I also think that it is almost impossible to go the spawn route calmly and with pleasure, if you play as if "immersed", that is, if you take everything seriously and emotionally, if you feel empathy for Astarion and love him, if you take him as a living person. Only for players who experience both routes, and want to see the character from all sides, or if you play detached, as an observer of some story, then you can take this route well. But not as "your and Astarion's story".

And if they make a monster out of AA, it will look like "punishment for selfishness", for unwillingness to humble themselves and bend to some "moral rules". Otherwise, how can it be, they did what they wanted, they are happy, no one burns, no one suffers, they have fun in the castle instead of the eternal Underdark? For Tav, not eternal by the way, Tav will die after a while, depending on the race. I saw the spawn docks scene on video, and would probably just quit the game without going through to the end if there wasn't an Ascension option. And after my scene and epilogue, the mood is super. There's definitely something about it..


There are more replicas and they are more interesting, the animations are better (even those insulting kisses in terms of animation quality are done much better than UA kisses, though all that quality is aimed at insulting the player). The AA path is better done overall, with both paths involving some rails and roleplay breaking, AA has the dialog after the ritual and the obligatory "likes to humiliate himself", which used to be tolerable, though unpleasant, but you could give a damn about it, UA has the scene at the docks when Tav stands there like an idiot and shows extreme cruel indifference to Astarion.

The thing is - as a youtube poll said - circa 80 % players choose to not help Astarion in the ritual. [This is just my own opinion/feeling, everyone experiences it differently and is free to do so:] I don't understand this either. I and my Tav had compassion for him in that moment, when he was begging, seeing him suffering is unbearable. Seeing him becoming resentful, empty, loosing all his cheekyness, his sarcasm, his desires, I couldn't do that. After the ritual as a spawn he was an empty shell, a nothing, a run-of-the-mill, a copy of someone else in the romance. Sad, powerless, destroyed, depending on Tav. What I liked about the character - was gone. There was almost nothing left in him. And I don't understand people, who want to cure the vampirism, to erase the last little bit of his character and his cheeky evil side, that we have come to know and actually love during the acts.


A lot of people are indifferent, at least it fits the reality I couldn't do that and couldn't watch this scene. But it's the only drama in this "good" ending, the rest is a boring Disney Wonderland, when you see people enjoying the rides but you're standing in a long endless line, hearing the announcement: "we are closing soon, please go to the exit."
But ~80 % are choosing this, so I guess, they are liking this route. And it's good, everyone has their own opinion and taste in things.

They're going to kill anyway, for food. What fraction of the 7,000 will agree to go to the Underdark? Obviously less, the rest will just scatter. In that case you doom those ordinary people who will be their victims, as well as those who will weep for those killed. It's a moral dilemma.

But for those Tavs for whom Astarion is not one of the 7000 spawn, but the most important person in their lives, the situation is clearly seen differently. And why is power always presented as the main motivator? It doesn't look like Gortash and Karlach at all, Tav is helping the man he loves to heal from spawn disability, hunger, problems with sunlight and to become truly free, if it was only about some "power", the issue would be quite different.

Well, ok, Tav is selfish, Tav is amoral, Tav only loves Astarion and themselves, Tav can balance this somewhat later by saving Baldur. Tav doesn't care about these spawns, Astarion comes first, Astarion's happiness is the main quest. Tav won't save Baldur if Astarion is unhappy, for Tav this Baldur might as well burn itself all down if Astarion has to suffer and be "redeemed". But what does that have to do with the domestic violence these kissing scenes show us? Tav is evil to the world (well, to some part of it, some other behaviors can be good as well, by choice), but not to Astarion. Why is their relationship turning into a nightmare? The world doesn't punish Tav in any way, everyone around them adores Tav, almost worships them, calls them a hero, and Astarion suddenly becomes a sadist. It's already like a delusion, it's completely unrealistic. Payback should come from where the damage was done, not the other way around.

Well after all, the 7000 spawns are fictional and the people who were affected by these traumatizing scenes are real.

Yes, that's right, starting with the phrase in the diary "Astarion will remain a spawn forever" - it's like a damn sentence, it nullifies everything, nothing else in this world is needed. No, earlier, starting with his tears after refusing the ritual, this bitter scene is a terrible contrast to how happy and proud he is after the ritual. His "It's perfect", the fact that he'll never suffer from hunger again. Let 7k, 10k, +100500k roll in all nine hells, I'll be evil, I'll be a monster for this! I ran around a bit with a devastated Astarion at first and felt exactly what you described, and I agree that it's a thousand times more enjoyable to read the curses of a thousand moralists against me than to play it.


Yes, it's as hard as watching the other violent scenes with Astarion, it's also called "bittersweet". But, if by becoming "evil" I can save Astarion from that, then - this is a game for a wonderful, interesting, fun, evil playthrough. If these really cruel scenes are finally fixed, I can be a contented monster next to a living and free Astarion.

In the case of UAstarion, I still wouldn’t forget about Mephistopheles, these souls were actually promised to him, and now they are free or killed.
If I were him, I wouldn’t just leave it like that

I don't understand why rewrites are necessary after release, especially when 80%, the majority, are already playing the spawn route and only 20% the ascended. If spawn's ending will be rewritten to get an even better ending, a cure of vampirism, it will make the ascended route less attractive, when the ascended route will be rewritten to get worse at the same time, (patch 6) - then 99 % will choose the spawn (or don't play the end) and 1% or less ascended - until those 1 % get triggered. They can then simply take out the route, instead of putting money into it and the UA church can be happy and spend their time on other things.


Uhh.. this would be interesting

I'm curious what the actual percentage is, not just a number from a YT poll. It seems like there's quite a lot of people who actually ascended him, seeing how many new posters showed up in here after patch 6.


This. And also the fact that Cazador is a High Elf so he will reincarnate one day and remember what happened and might even plot revenge against Astarion and Tav if they still live.