Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta BETA 1.059 Skills/abilities change thread

From a fairly new player to D:OS, I'd like to start off saying this: I LOVED this game when I first tried it. The feeling of absolute, ABSOLUTE freedom was something unattainable in any mmo or rpg game I have ever played. And I'm a player from beta of Mabinogi, the mmo that encourages doing anything you want. After this patch though, I felt an extreme lacking, even disappointment.

-The talents being separated from "the Way of" makes having to spend a precious talent point and force certain other requirements for them where previously we had more control over it.

-The skills drastic changes are less favorable now. I understand other people's points from both sides in favor of Old and New but I have to say while I want the Old system, it isn't for the reasons I've seen so far. I want it BECAUSE I want to use those higher tier skills. Summon Elemental? Yes please. Throw in Storm at level 9? Also cool. And yes, I DID grind a specific Element to 5, but after reaching 4 and slapping on a staff to get that last ability pt, I went straight for the complementary Element. And the whole time I did this, I wasn't unbalanced. I had equal time breezing through fights as I did being challenged on Normal difficulty. Why? Because you had already given mobs the tools innately for countering players in different ways. In my duo mage playthrough I had Water/Air on one mage, Earth/Fire on another. I ran into the Fire immune mobs and said "Crap". What do I do now? Im healing them. It took me turn after turn to realize I could start buffing my other character with the Fire mage, throw down some oil to slow the enemies, and continue to make my way through the fight this way. The same situation happened in reverse with my Ice mage. "Oh Crap" that boss is immune to freezing, I can't take him out of the fight! It made it a challenge, but after a couple reloads from party wipe, I managed to get through it. All of this at the appropriate levels, and this was before you gave a buff to enemy AI too.

-Regarding skill access. It seems like with the spirit of this game, any skill should be available to a player if they want to go for it. But also in the spirit of this game, everything is dynamic, randomness is EVERYWHERE. NPC's should keep their essence of randomness and sell any book of their field (Limiting only 1 of each copy however instead of 5 copies of Minor Charm). This way, each playthrough is different. It would also encourage players who want certain skills to CRAFT them, like intended (though the methods of crafting skillbooks should be slightly easier than currently is).

-The one benefit of this NOT being an MMO is balance should be a heck of a lot easier. You have absolutely no worry about an economy between a community of players. Not being an MMO you have the freedom of throwing in more than one game mode for those who want better challenges, or a little easier time cruising through the story and enjoying the ride. Why not use such a solution you already have at your disposal? Make a Hardcore Mode where even one death becomes permanent for a Follower, give added skills to enemies who wouldn't normally have them (or even randomize the skills an enemy has in such a mode!)

I'm not trying to criticize what is going on, but I am saying I liked the old system enough that I did not stick to your current patch. I restored the previous version and continued playing it as such. Heck, maybe that could even be an option! Give players the option of playing the game with the old OR new skill system!

Yes, something like this was also my suggestion on the previous page.

I was expecting this to be done anyway. They cen have a specific pool of books set by location so - a Cysael pool for the start of the game.



Im not sure can you really "rush" to it. You need to get the xp to level up by playing, dealing with the game challenges. I think the players "rush to it" because the selection of early spells isnt that great right now. Actually.



I dont see how that forces anyone to specialize. All it does is makes you actually "train in the right way" to achieve what you want - without being able just to get every skill or a spell easily, without any investment at all.

This only needs to be adjusted on a case per case basis when it comes to specific skills or spells. Not removed.

And then reducing the damage of some specific skills through the start and allowing them to come to full damage through leveling up and investing more in that specific type of skills - or by choosing specific such Talents - would be an additional layer that would support specialization to some extent. Theoretically.



***



Anyway, been playing all night yesterday. I have some examples.

- Cant learn boulderdash with my Wayfarer before sixth level.
So - i cant just put one point into Geomancy (Earth magic) and learn whichever three spells i want.

Cant learn Freezing touch because i dont have Int 8 and level 7 - with my battle mage hybrid.

Burn my eyes - requirements are too high for that spell. Increases perception? Big deal. That should be available early on.

Burning blaze could be available a bit sooner too. 9 - 9 requrement?

Firefly 7 - 4? Thats too early, considering what enormous amounts of damage that causes.
I cleared both the Lighthouse and the Burial Mounds with level 4 party - mostly with the use of it.
Without it those encounters would be either impossible to handle or much,much, much more difficult.

I would suggest Int 8 and level 5 requirement for it.

That seems to me like a proper "moment" where it would become available.

How about switching it for Burning Blaze?
if the burning blaze is too strong - reduce its damage until the player reaches level... 5 or 6...?
So early on the Pyromancers would have the flare spell and the Burning Blaze spell as a direct improvement over the Flare.

But they would need to atleast clear the Western part of the map to get to Level 5 - to get the very powerful Firefly spell.
(the damage of that should be reduced too, a little bit - generally a burning surface deals a whole lotta damage per turn. A bit too much overall, considering how enemy Ai deals with it, etc)


Generally, more low level offensive spells is needed. They could be low damage spells, but they should be interesting and diverse as possible.
I think some people are having a bit of a negative reaction to this new setup because they dont have very much of directly offensive spells through the very start, so that makes them think their mages are underpowered and weak. Especially if they stick to one element.

I dont think so because i use the first available spells for buffing and healing and to affect the environment, as a part of the team tactics (havent tried playing only with our due alone though)- but, i can understand that kind of reaction from others. Especially considering what most of them is use to.

On the other hand i also wouldnt mind having a few more purely offensive starting low level spells myself - either.

The selection is somewhat sparse in that department right now.

Blitz bolt, poison arrow, flare, and ice spike?

Surely or... hopefully, a few more simple, low damage early spells could be added - invented on short notice? (Spider is really great, btw, love to use it)

This is technically not a skills/abilities change.

I have had to reload one of my earlier saved games because my Knight decided to put his first Attribute point into Speed instead of Strength. This meant that he could not equip any two-handed swords he found. The knight started out with 8 STR. Essentially, that means that anyone who wants to use 2H swords is forced into starting with a base of 8 STR, and putting their first attribute point into STR - they don't really have the choice of doing anything else.

I really did have to do that because the starting Source Hunters sword is not cutting it (NPI) against the level 3 enemies.

So I'm reloading back a couple earlier encounters to when I still had a 1H sword in my inventory, because speccing into 1H is easier than reloading a much older saved game or restarting. (and makes the knight's weapon selection less overlapping with Madora's).

I also wouldn't mind being able to switch starting weapons in character creation.

Well... if you want to wield big two handers... ?

You could go with usual one hand sword at the start instead? You sacrificed a big offensive weapon for more speed (APs) at the very start? And if you go for big offensive two hand weapon you have less Speed? Whats so wrong about that?

My complaint is not that they require strength, but that the requirements scale up a little too quickly, AND you have no choice except to put your first point into STR. I can't even start "building a character the way I want" and increasing my Knight's speed, because without getting STR up to 9 with my very first point, my knight's damage output drops into very poor range before I hit level 4 and can get another point into STR.

I did not know that the requirements had changed to scale up that rapidly. This build was viable last patch. You can easily reach level 2 well before finding an Item Level 3 2H sword. The starting "Source Hunter's" 2H sword does not even list the required STR, so I didn't even have a "Requires STR 8" as a guide.

I wasn't even specifically going for a 2H sword guy, I merely picked a Knight to try out how "Cure Wounds" had improved (answer: it is very good now), and didn't bother switching his spec to 1H weapons.

I can't even try and compensate by switching to a 2H Crushing damage weapon BECAUSE THERE AREN'T ANY IN THE GAME! Hello, Larian?

Its quite easy to solve the jack-of-all-mages thing going on now. Make better spells take up more spell slots, so the best fire magic spell takes up 4 slots for example. That way you cant use it with just 1 point in fire magic, you need to invest 3 skill points, and even then you only get to use that one skill because you have maxed your slots.

I think I would be fine if it was changed so that ItemLevel 3 swords required 8 STR and ItemLevel 4 swords required 9 STR. That lets you put your first attribute point wherever and get an upgrade that lasts until your next attribute point.

EDIT: Even ItemLevel TWO Two-handers require 9 STR!


Actually, maybe I wouldn't be fine with it. That reminds me of something else I noticed:

Dagger - Item Level 3
Damage: 16-26
Attack: 2 AP
Critical Damage: x2.0 (32-52)
Critical Chance: +3%
Movement: +0.22
Durability: 60

Sharp Rondel Dagger - Item Level 6
Damage: 16-32
Attack: 5 AP ( +3 Item Level penalty)
Critical Damage: x2.0 (32-64)
Critical Chance: +4%
Movement: +0.34
Durability: 50

That seems a little bit nuts to me. They have the same DEX requirement, but it costs an extra 3 AP because it does 6 more maximum damage? By the time I reach level 6 and can use that without penalty, I'm certain that in those three levels, the enemy health will have scaled up to have a lot more than 12 extra HP.

No, that cant be the solution chimp. Too...crude. besides, thats only one small detail, not the whole of the problem here.

Granted Stabbey, granted.
(although i find Madora very useful with Str 8... and she does use two handers...)
And sure... big two handed blunt, crushing weapons are missing a lot.


***


As for the overall main conundrum of this thread...

I think i figured it out.


The way this new setup works is this:

The manner in which weapon skills and the "Skills" (that name should be changed, seriously) now work or function has been simplified very much.

They dont give you any sort of special ability or anything, just incremental increases in damage, by 10%. And the "Skills" only give you more slots for the "skills" by increments. # slots, 5 slots, 7 slots...

:falls asleep:


:zzzsZZzz:


:snorr:


HA! WHAT! WHO!? ... oh...


I didnt see that before because what they do is hidden until you invest points into them, and even then all the Ui shows is just one or two steps of it.
So i expected that future higher levels will include some of the abilities that were present in the "Way of the -", in the previous setup.


While actually, these specific abilities of all these "skills" and former "Way of the -" skills... were moved into Talents.

Which is not the best thing one could do.

It certainly improves the talents, but it makes raising the specific "skills" rather bland.
On the other hand... if this serves as requirement for specific Talents (as it does in some cases) then the whole thing is better, overall. Even if it means that Talents are now more valuable then skills...


The Scoundrel (should be Rogue really...) skill doesnt give any unique abilities for example.
Just gives you 3 rogue skill slots, 5 rogue skill slots, 7 skill slots, yadda, yadda, yadda...

:yawn:


...



That really, really looks very uninteresting and non - engaging.

BUT,...

The positive thing about these "Skills" (the name should be changed... really) is that they affect Talents.

They open talents.

Yet it does not say so in the skill description in any way. And it should. Thats important too. Especially now when Talents are the most valuable and best features of the game.

Because then people would think, - "ok... if it put another point into this specific "skill" here, im going to get two more skill slots, im going to get specific unique talents to open up and become available..." - etc, etc...

- and there should be etc:

Which should be all the before mentioned things like:

Decreases of AP costs, increases of damage for specific spells, maybe even increases in other stats such as range, size of the AoE surface...ETC.
Maybe even lowering the requirements for specific elemental spells or fighting skills.

So, a Pyromancer with three points in that elemental magic would be able to get the Firefly (changes as i suggested previously) a bit earlier then a some hybrid build that naturally did not invest so much points into Pyromancy.
Or some other high level spell.

Because investing points into Pyromancy would decrease the requirements for the spells of that school? (that has to be done carefully, of course - not to make it unbalanced or too easy)


While a specialized Fighter would be able to get some specific skill a bit sooner, compared to the hybrids.

I would also increase the requirements for Crushing Fist and Bull Rush warrior skills because they are very powerful stuff for lower levels - which would balance all this out instead of making crazy overpowered fighter specialized classes too early.



Yes?



YES.

Is there a bug or are weapons and armor item levels supposed to work differently? It seems like Item Level on Weapons cannot be equipped unless you are at level or above, while armor item level doesn't matter vs your characters level, I can wear any item level, even those above my characters level. Or am I missing something?

I've wrote out two replies and erased. There is a lot going on in the game here. I'm not sure your suggestion is ideal, I'm not even certain we have a big problem here. To get the big spells in different classes is going to take a while to build up levels, then they will have long cooldowns associated to those spells.

If you have them eat up Spell Learning Slots to, you will have a very narrow mage, that can only do a few things really well. You best hope you aren't confronted with a situation where your mage's big spells are as useless as tits on a bore.

Over the years, I've played systems that had wide open freedom to build one's character, this wasn't breaking ground. Unless the point is you can simply just take the best of each class and ignore the rest is your slant, then to me it just shows a game in beta still tweaking it's ways. Who writes gaming systems like that? We'd all be named MinMax.

But this is one of the issues of having open beta's, from other EA games as well, we get used to what is given and when the rules are tightened on us, there is always always a backlash. We get used to easier, we get used to what is offered and now something new, more challenging is given and it feels like were were pushed backwards. It's an EA problem.

They are building a combat engine, ideally this would be totally fleshed out before any code is ever written, but this isn't the case. Combat engines want to have some cleverness to them, tough choices, choices that have consequence and ultimately balance.

Perhaps the mod'ing of the game can add in something else we all may individually want. Asking for optional combat model/rules at a level like this doesn't seem overly feasible.

What happens if they change the system up again for the next patch? There will be people that hate it and people that love it. Who's right? Who's wrong? Really what they need to do, is keep a small ear open, but really stick to and finish up what they have, trust in their years of exp. or this thing will never be released.

Well it was just an idea, honestly after completing a play through with these changes, the only thing that bothers me is how annoying it makes the early game. Mid / late game is fine, infact I end up with more / better spells for less than the previous version, which seemed to be the opposite of what the changes were intended for.

Getting to level 4 on hard was pretty lame, but from there it was absolutely fine.

There really are no problems in this system as some previously stated.

My two hybrid Source Hunters are obviously less capable in specific "classes" skills and abilities then Madora, a pure fighter and Jahan - a pure wizard. Madora is a better fighter then both and Jahan is a better wizard then both.

Scarlet and Roderick make up for it with versatility, but they cannot obtain some higher level spells or equipment, which all have high stat requirements, without seriously hampering their diversity.

(the fact that some very powerful spells and fighting abilities are easily and early available is a separate issue and adjusting that will make the whole deal much better)

The system is good. It just needs smaller adjustments of skills, equipment and specific spells requirements, to become visually and instinctively, intuitively more acceptable to all players.
And also a bit better, improved.


-


Talents can remain as they are now, no need to change them except maybe adding more of them, so the choices arent so easy and clear cut as they are now.

For example - "Bigger and Better" really should not be early and easily available Talent as it is now. Because in the game as it is - getting one more attribute point is a huge thing.
And it doesnt even have any kind of drawback at all. You just get an extra point.


-


The weapon skills and "Skills" should be upgraded a bit to give some other benefits except just simple incremental % increases. And more then just spell and skill - slots.

Their descriptions should also clearly communicate that talents are very dependent on them, because that will immediately make them look more important then they seem now, at first glance.

I've got to say I disagree about the original system encouraging sticking with traditional thief-wizard-fighter etc. roles. I played several different character sets using the old system, and never chose to do this.

I personally liked the old system better, and felt it allowed diversification just as well or better than the new system. I don't hate the new system (as some people seem to), but I liked the old system better, and felt it allowed more creativity in mixing and matching abilities and skills than the new system.

The new system doesn't provide as much benefit for raising a skill to a higher level, so there's really no point to raising any skill area, as it is much more effective to put a point or two into each area.

Scary that this stuff isn't nailed down in stone with 33 days till release.

As someone who hasn't finished a single run through the demo, I found the previous version much more fun than the stuff I'm playing now. Remember, most of your audience isn't going to play 15 runs of the game, just one or maybe two. The last beta was understandable and fun; now there are restrictions on 90% of the gear and skills that I want to use. KISS(Keep it Simple Stupid) is vital. You want to please the audience that is going to play the game for the first time in 33 days. What you're doing with this latest demo is changing the game for an audience that is already extremely familiar with the content. You can't do that and make new money.

I agree, shouldn't such a core system as characters level progression have been figured out somewhere in pre-preduction? I've already seen several quite different variations in alpha and beta and it seems it's still nowhere near that sweet spot with which majority would be satisfied. I'm worried that in the end, after release, this will be a major complaint from the release version consumers, who, I'm afraid, will not be as forgiving as early alpha and beta adopters.

Still enough time for them to make changes if need be. If people continue not to like the new skill system they'll just change if back to the old style. Apparently there's going to be a hotfix sometime this week to improve skill selection at vendors. My guess they'll wait and see how people will react after the hotfix to make any changes for the next big update.

We need the ability requirements back in addition to level requirements, with lower level requirements to allow for specialization.

In the current state all you need to get the 5 schools of magic is some Intelligence. When you reach a new level you can learn every spell requiring that level with just one or two points in the corresponding ability. ( you can forget lower level spells )
There is no longer a mage specialized in a school because all you need to get all skills is money to buy the books.

Non-magic classes only get one skill tree and because of the high level requirements they cannot use much from their tree. They have points left both for abilities and stats.

I started with a ranger and a wizard but the ranger has turned into a mage just because I don't have the choice to specialize. Level requirements for skills are too high to allow for a specialization. And I can have the stats corresponding to my level for both ranger and mage.

For weapons, the level requirement is too high compared to the stat requirement. You don't need to increase your dexterity to use a bow because you don't have the level to use that bow.

When I reach a new level, I have enough money to get all the skillbooks I can use.

I suggest :
lower the level requirements for weapons and skills
get the ability requirements back ( at least for magic skills )
add effect bonus and/or AP reduction to skills for each magic ability level
increase the cost of skillbooks


I have another suggestion concerning scrolls :
Make the AP cost of a scroll one point lower than the spell when you know the spell.

If you read the reasons for the changes made, it's clear that things couldn't stay as they were and we cannot go back to the old system for release.

We need a system that encourages diversity whilst rewarding a certain amount of specialization. The old system made specialization too rewarding.

One problem with the current system is that it can give a huge amount of powers by spreading a few points. If you put 3 points in all 8 of them you get 40 powers.
I think the maximum number of powers a character can have should be determined by character level.
Perhaps something like 3 skills at 1st plus 2 per level to a maximum of 30 skills.

Whilst increasing the skills abilities can give you an increase in the number of one type you can have, they should also give a slight bonus to using those skills as well. Perhaps reducing the AP cost or cool down or increasing the effect of lower tiered powers of their type. This would allow generalists to have parity when using the higher powered spells but give the specialists more utility within their field. There could also be talents for a slight damage/effect boost that would be favored by specialists.

And/Or Make 2 pools of ability points. One for skills and one for everything else. That way people can't just zerg rush their skills.