Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - Suggestions and Feedback The "Back-Stabber" Talent has to go. Period.

Fifteen Talents from D:OS 1 were carried over to D:OS 2 (half the D:OS 2 list) without changes, even though the mechanics in D:OS 2 have been radically revamped. Now, most of that list was just specializations, but several of them are now distinctly worse because they not been adapted to the changes in D:OS 2.

Back-Stabber is one of them, and the changes to D:OS 2 mean that Back-Stabber no longer belongs in the game.


In D:OS 1, you picked two Talents in character creation, and got a third Talent point at level 3. In D:OS 2, you get 1 Talent on character creation, and your second at level 4, third at level 8.

In other words, to have as many Talents in D:OS 2 as you have in D:OS 1 by level 3, you need an extra 5 levels. To have as many Talents in D:OS 2 as you have immediately after gaining control on the Cyseal beach in D:OS 1, you need to reach level 4.

In D:OS 1, needing to spend a Talent point to get Back-Stabber was a very mild nuisance, but not a big one. You had two Talents on character creation and even if you used them both on other things, there wasn't a LOT of combat between level 1 and level 3, so you could get away with no backstab until level 3.

But in D:OS 2? It's not until you're basically done with Fort Joy that you can get a second Talent point, and that includes a good amount of combat on top of the questing. So do they take the Talent Tax and have to put off getting the Talents which actually help them compete, or do they get one of the better Talents and have to use a bow or weak face-stabs until level 4?

The changes to Talent distribution from D:OS 1 to D:OS 2 make it completely UNFAIR that Rogues are stuck with such a high Talent Tax which no other archtype has to deal with.

Back-Stabber has to be removed, and back-stabbing should become an inherent property to all daggers and knives.

This would not be unbalanced, because of how other mechanics have also changed since D:OS 1. For instance, no longer can Rogues stack Speed to gain a ton of AP and attacks per turn. Like all characters they gain only 4 AP a turn.

If this change was done, then for instance a new Level 1 Rogue could pick Huntsman as a second Combat Ability and focus on avoiding attacks of opportunity. Or Parry Master and focus on dodging. Or The Pawn and focus on moving into position better. Or slingshot and focus on grenade throwing. Or if they hit their head and lost the ability to do basic math they could pick Guerrilla and focus on Sneak damage. They wouldn't have to wait until level 4 for no good reason.

Back-Stabber has to go. All the changes means that it does not fit in D:OS 2 and it is hurting the gameplay rather than helping it.

Still supporting ^^

I have a hard time with this seeing as how I feel stealth and invisibility already are making "rogue" characters too powerful. On the other hand I certainly understand what you are saying. All around it feels like talents are too few and far between (especially when 2/3 are garbage tier that no one is going to pick up).

I'm hoping that a LOT is changed in the actual game ( Like why the hell is one man army still at level 8?) and that alpha is set up much differently. A lot of builds could potentially be extremely over powered (reflect damage/necromancy builds for starters) when the level cap is raised above 7/8.

At the moment the talents are not very good so I really don't mind having to put one talent point in backstabbing since there is not much else I want anyway.

Down with Talent Taxes! The Scoundrel ability tree's crit damage multiplier already serves as a way to make backstabbing on a non-rogue much less effective than a dedicated rogue after a few levels. If a Marksman or even a dagger and board warrior wants to play with backstabbing, then they shouldn't have to sacrifice a whole talent for what would ultimately be a gimmick for a non-rogue.

This would make it easier to hybridize rogues with the current talents but i usually use the rogue class as my physical damage dealer so i would like more talents to increase the strength of such "pure" builds.

I agree with the OP.

Daggers are currently only balanced around the assumption that those using them will have the Backstab talent.
They do less damage than their Str counterparts, but require the same amount of AP to attack.
Daggers should be on-par with other 1 handed weapons without a mandatory talent.

As to "how" to fix this, there are a few options. We could remove the Backstab talent and incorporate it into Daggers, as the OP suggests, or Daggers could be buffed to increase their viability outside of Backstab. This could be a flat damage increase, or it could be something more creative.

If you only increase the damage of daggers, backstabbing would get far to strong?

It is logical, that a knife can't hurt as much as sword, but it is also logical that a sword is worse for backstabbing.

I don't really see how the presence of the Back-Stabber Talent makes a difference for that complaint or how removing it would make the thing you're complaining about any worse.




The Pawn, Parry Master, Duck Duck Goose, maybe Slingshot, even What a Rush. Possibly Leech and Hothead depending on your build.

I agree that Talents are in drastically need of some love from Larian, but I don't think that "Lots of Talents suck" is a reason to keep Back-Stabber in, but instead a reason to have more Talents which do NOT suck.




I believe he was suggesting to remove the Back-stabber Talent and then to EITHER add that effect to the weapons OR to increase the dagger damage, not both.

Yeah, but increasing the damage and removing backstabbing at all would make less scoundrel like and just a different kind of warrior. Also probably would make daggers quite obsolete?

Daggers wouldn't be obsolete, they are still the only 1H Finesse weapon and are required for many Scoundrel skills.

I agree that without Backstab it removes some of the feel of the Scoundrel/Rogue archetype, and would be a lazy solution. Making everything the same achieves balance, but is no fun.

Personally, I don't like trying to be behind my targets for Backstabs. I find the forced positioning very inconvenient.
I wish I could avoid the talent entirely when playing a Rogue, but Larian has made rogue damage non-competitive without it, and one is taxed a talent and inconvenient positioning with it. Perhaps I would enjoy it more if it felt rewarding, but it feels like a penalty to just be on-par.

Backstab should at least be included by default for Daggers since they're not strong enough without it (at least in lieu of some other buff E.g., piercing, more crit, more attacks, etc.).
I'd prefer Backstab remain an optional talent, as I don't like the playstyle and I don't feel like it's a necessary part of the identify, but in the current state of the game, having it built-in would be better for balance.

Having a 2nd Finesse weapon with damage equivalent to 1H Str weapons and no Backstabbing would be nice for diversity too (Blackjack anyone?).

Ok... I guess I should make this comparison.

Far Out Man is IMO the best magic skill, while the "ability to critically hit" can also be argued to be the best now (Inspite people saying it is useless -_-)

Yet you do not need Far Out Man or the critical hit spell ability to make magic not bad. They do perfectly fine without it.

You need backstabber to make daggers (and thus Scoudrels by extension) not bad.

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Mind you I am not against Talents that represent leaps in power... that essentially become midpoint or endpoint "Must haves" given the nature of the game.

Yet those are prizes. You GET to have those talents. Even if they aren't optional in some respects.

You HAVE to take backstabber :P

It's tough to claim any talent is a must-have. Rogues will still do 2/3 of their regular attack damage w/o Backstab, and all Scoundrel abilities that result in a guaranteed Backstab will still Crit even without the talent, and those Rogues wouldn't have to get behind their targets and would enjoy the benefits of another useful talent, such as Warlord of Pawn.

What one can say, is that they must have Backstab to have theoretical competitive DPS with Str-based melee classes. But a lower-damage class with greater utility can still be a viable alternative.

I haven't really thought much on this topic as the only thing I can think of is how horribly enemies react to sneak but now that you've mentioned this I've seen the light and now it cant be unseen. This needs to be a thing.

I think you'd have to reduce damage of dagger if you made backstabbing inherent.

Already scoundrel is very strong (after a few levels anyway, not at the start). If they got an extra talent point because of removing backstabber it might be too much.

I would accept lower base dagger damage in exchange for not having to spend a point into a Talent Tax.

Here a sugestion that coule be fun and more immersive?

Just put backstab inherant to dagger as you sugested, but ofc reducing a bit raw damage of dagger can be a balanced way. I would rather sugest that bleeding effect (or others also) can only be put if you are in a backstabing position.

Been thinking, there could still be a backstab talent that feels non-mandatory. Idea:

Hollower: Weapon modifiers and skills that can backstab and apply status effects ignore armor resist when backstabbing.

This would make weapons like Kniles' daggers which can mute a bit more useful. Would need more backstabbing skills that can apply statuses to make this especially useful, but it's a more niche benefit to backstabbing than a mandatory talent.

Or something like:

Magekiller: Backstabs have a 15-30% chance to mute (perhaps piercing magic armor).

Obviously this would incentive always going for mages first, rather than rangers or other characters. Doesn't really change basic strategy or have enough cool factor for my taste though.

Talents like those are exactly the kind of "specialist" Talents I'd like to see added to the game.

Of course, first Back-Stabber still has to be removed and applied as an inherent trait of Daggers/knives (even if it does mean lowering their base damage a bit).

The only trouble i have with the status effect talent is the fact that only weapons you find/buy apply status effects. DOS:EE's weapons had greater damage when crafted but status effects were ignored i hope that isn't the case this time.