Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - Enhanced Edition "Avoid Opportunists" Talent should require Rogue

It does not make sense at all for that Talent to have a requirement of Expert Marksman 1 instead of Scoundrel 1. Scoundrels are the ones who will be moving around in the middle of combat the most.

Rangers should be far away, and they get Quickstep and Tactical Retreat earlier than Rogues get Cloak and Dagger. (I think.) This just makes Rogues spend an extra ability point for no good reason.

I strongly disagree. For one, I don't see Scoundrels needing to move around in combat any more than any other melee character does. How often are you disengaging from melee range as a Scoundrel?

More importantly, because Rangers want to remain "at range" is precisely why this talent is best suited for them, as it comes into play every time the AI decides to run opponents up to the Ranger's position. Getting slammed by attacks of opportunity every time the Ranger attempts to move away is a nightmare, and Tactical Retreat has too large a cooldown (9 turns?) to expect it to be available every time a melee opponent comes near a Ranger.

What? Is that a serious question? When am I disengaging from combat as a Scoundrel? All the time! Have you never played one?

There's a huge difference between how a normal fighter plays and a Rogue. Normal fighters move at about the speed of a dead albatross, and if they do need to move they have the armor rating and HP to take a hit. Rogues are fast and nimble and they often have need to move around enemies in melee range, whether just to escape being ganged up on (which will happen just as often as Rangers have to deal with it, if not MORE), or if a status effect fails and they don't have quite enough AP to try another one, or to move around an enemy to get into proper backstab position for another one. They have to deal with AoO's all the time.




Well, I disagree. Rogues are more likely to be in melee range and they don't have any better escape options than the Ranger does.

Besides, if the change I'm asking for were to happen, it would have this effect:
- Rogues would have to spend 1 fewer ability point to be able to get the Talent.
- Rangers would have to spend 1 more ability point to be able to get the Talent.

Rangers can usually afford the extra point cost a bit more than a Rogue can.

Try playing a crowd-controlling fighter trying to herd enemies attempting to spread to the four winds. They're not exactly standing around idle. Movement is important to everyone in this game, but some archetypes can absorb stray hits better than others.



Er.. what? How exactly is that a convincing sell?

Look, since you seem to think having to "spend 1 more ability point" isn't a big deal, then let's just keep things as they are and let the Rogues continue to spend 1 more ability point (rather than trying to pass that burden on to the Rangers).



I sense a little bias in that claim. I can't think of a single class that couldn't use some extra points.

Ever heard of Sneak, Pickpocket, and Lockpicking? Those are traditional Rogue skills, not Ranger skills. Rangers in this game take things like Crafting and Loremaster because they don't need points elsewhere as badly as other classes.

Rogues don't need to take sneak, in fact, sneak benefits rogue less than any other class as they don't gain any benefit from gorilla. Since they have no reason to sneak, then they don't really need pick-pocketing. That said, since rangers have a much cheaper and more useful teleport skill available earlier and are less likely to be in melee while wearing the same or similar armor, it really makes no sense to give this to Rangers over Rogues.

That said, Witches are in a much worse position with absolutely 0 talents. A rather significant oversight...

As for Rogues, the fact that they are the only melee class that gets no benefit from Guerilla and require the skill backstab before they can even function is... Counter-intuitive.

You shouldn't need the talent if your rogue is simply circling around someone - opportunity attacks only occur when you move out of melee range, not when you move around within it.

Rogues also have a handy invisibility power available right from the outset, which is perfect for escaping with when things go south. (And if that's not enough, take Escapist and teleport away and/or engage in pyramid tricks.)

Sure, because all Rangers take Crafting and Loremaster only (if at all). I guess that's a rule that's set in stone somewhere in an otherwise classless game? They couldn't possibly want Sneak, Pickpocket, or Lockpicking for themselves, or Bartering, Charisma, Leadership, and Lucky Charm, or even Dual Wielding or Two-Handed Sword use in addition to Bows. Because there have never been Ranger concepts with those skills before, right?

What I'm getting from this conversation is that you have your own personal opinion on the skills a Ranger should take, and going by your concept a Ranger has plenty of points to spare (unlike your idea of a Rogue). Meanwhile, other people are trying to build their own version of a Ranger and (unlike your concept) falling horribly short because there aren't enough points to build their vision.

And so I'll say it again - all potential builds are struggling for points. Making a talent more accessible to Rogues at the cost of making it less accessible to Rangers just because you want a spare point for your Rogue build isn't a good argument. And trying to play it off like it's "just one more point" that Rangers can afford to suck up when Rogues can't is silly.

As is pretending that "Avoid Opportunists" isn't a useful talent for Rangers. Honestly, I'm sure every build would enjoy having this talent. However, Rangers simply can not afford to have random opponents in their face and blocking their line of sight if they want to have a clear shot at other targets on the battlefield. If Rangers want to continue using their bows effectively, then they must withdraw when an opponent closes on them, and I feel that is why this particular talent makes more sense in requiring Expert Marksman rather than Scoundrel.

Simply put, Rangers should be good at putting distance between themselves and their opponents without exposing themselves to danger (i.e. attacks of opportunity) every time they move. Your stereotypical Rogue, on the other hand, is nimble and quick - and there are other ways to represent that - but being adept at dodging is NOT the same thing as being able to withdraw from melee range without leaving ones self open to attack. You want to be able to duck in and out of melee range without risk. That's overpowered. Where as Rangers just want to be able to get out of melee range and stay out because they typically don't belong there.