Larian Studios Forums General Chat RPG Chat KOTOR--a different sort of question

Almost everyone praises KOTOR highly. I note that it is made by the folks that made NWN. I couldn't force myself to finish NWN. These days I prefer MP. Will I like KOTOR?

I dislike NWN, I love KotOR.

In short: Tastes are personal, so you might still not like KotOR, but many people still do.

Slight addition: I like MP too, but I usually play RPG's singleplayer. It's usually FPS games I play online.

What is it you like about KOTOR? How is it done differently from NWN?

Do you like Star Wars movies? Because this game is like a movie. Its actually much better than the prequels.

KotoR has extremely attractive 3D visuals. In my opinion, it is far too linear, the enemy AI is pitiful, and the puzzles are either abysmally or so plainly based upon conventional models as to be laughable. A Tower of Hanoi being used as a test for...well, I can't say, because I don't want to spoil it for you. But for me, the illusion of reality was repeatedly shattered at such moments.

For my money, KotoR was a step forward graphically, and a step or perhaps two back from BG2. The latter had more interesting puzzles, dialog, personalities, and opponents, along with less linearity. Visually, BG2 really showed its age. But (and this is just my point of view) I played through KotoR and felt disappointed at the end, which was not a reaction I'd had with either BG2 or especially Planescape: Torment.

NWN was a great engine and rules set which really didn't hit its stride until the last expansion set. That one finally harnassed the possibilities to produce a really good standalone, roleplaying experience.

Again, these are just my personal opinions: neither better nor worse than any other.

To conclude your posting into short words : The lesser the depth, the greater the graphics ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

Okay, I admit that I haven't played it yet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I still believe I would need a new PC for that ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Of course, before you get to the last expansion pack in NWN you already spent about €100 or so, as that game was really expensive over here in Belgium.

Now, personally I enjoyed BG2 & PST a whole lot (I consider them some of my favourite rpg's), but I still enjoyed KotOR a whole lot. I admit I like Star Wars though. But overall, KotOR was the best RPG released last year. In a way that's sad, as I agree KotOR has some flaws. Yet on the other hand, I already gave up on ever seeing another game such as BG2.

Let's not go overboard btw:
BG1: you start in candlekeep, "escape", and then the game begins.
PST: you start in a morgue, escape and then the game begins.
BG2: you start in a dungeon, escape and then the game begins.
KotOR: you start in a spaceship, escape and then the game begins.

Do you see the pattern I mean? All these games come from around the same group of people and in the end, they produce the same story and just place it in a different setting. In the end, KotOR was the first game with good 3D graphics and a story similar to that of all previous Infinity Engine games.

Sure, KotOR had a tower puzzle, but for crying out loud, BG2 had riddles as "I am the beginning of eternity and the end of life bla bla bla" (or something along those lines, and then the answer was the letter "e").

I never felt pushed out of KotOR's environment and very much felt in character throughout most of it. It really depends on how high you put your standards and how well you like Star Wars.

EDIT: BG2 was equally lineair as KotOR is. In KotOR you can travel to 4 worlds and take em in any order, as well as do sidequests and eventually be forced along the mainquest. BG2 however had sidequests that opened up as well, eventually forcing you down the mainquest. Don't kid yourself, both games were lineair as heck, BG2 perhaps just had more sidequests.

If you're talking non lineair: Morrowind & Daggerfall, there you go, both non lineair.

With all my respect, Master D Evil, BG2 was not linear. It had many sidequests, a choice of good/evil and some class-related quests (strongholds).

Sorry but in my opinion Morrowind was non-linear because it practically lacked a story.

"Non-linearity" is bloody overrated. As DATD said, sure, Morrowind is non-linear, but it doesn't have much of a story, either. If I must trade a focal story for non-linearity, then give me a relatively linear game any time.

And now, gushing about KotOR...

I loathed the NWN OC with an unholy passion. I love, love, love KotOR. It redeemed Bioware in my eyes and made me pick up HotU (which, while no match for KotOR, is a quantum leap from the NWN OC and SoU). The graphics are not state of the art, but they are good enough to be immersive, and the melee combat animations are the height of cool. (Repetitive after a while, but still pretty damn cinematic.) The voiceacting is top-notch, and so is the writing. However, yes, it's linear -- but that, for me, is a plus. It is something of an interactive movie, and that's perfectly fine. The characters and story absolutely grabbed me, and I actually grew to care about them. Which is saying something, since I'm generally stone-hearted enough that I look at most fictional characters with analytical detachment rather than emotional attachment.

Now, it's got flaws. The AI is less then stellar; movements can sometimes be jerky; inventory management is a pain. But even so, the fun factor was large enough for me to keep me playing, which is saying something. I have never been particularly interested about Star Wars, and still am not (well, I have to do some research, but...), but that doesn't detract me from enjoying KotOR.

Hmm, after what was said (KotOR being an interactive movie), I am not sure I want to play it anymore. I am not a big Star Wars fan and never was, but all this excess of SW merchandise/books/movies/games arround starts to bore me. I am losing interest in Star Wars.

Let's see:

1) A single game is a step up graphically, but poorer in other respects, than its predecessors.

2) It therefore follows that the greater the graphics, the lesser the depth, in all games, at all times.

Sorry, but I'm having trouble getting from 1) to 2). I suspect this is the kind of humor you really have to hear in a voice, than read. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

It's purely my opinion, but I think that Bioware stuck to "the basics" in getting KotoR out on time. They were working with a new engine, and they didn't have the resources to "get fancy." If I'm right, then future games employing the same engine may be more "creative" in the sense of being less linear, or providing reasonable puzzles, or featuring quests that make more sense in context (less of the "Oh, hey, I don't know you from an oil slick but you're obviously the Famous Chosen One In Disguise, so please get back our family's life savings, okay?").

The other possibility behind KotoR's "dumbing down" of some of the features in BG2 is that LucasArts/Bioware deliberately tried to include a younger market. The fact that the visuals discreetly faded on a kiss could indicate that (though admittedly, they could just as easily point to the problems inherent in showing facial expressions and human contact with the engine).

Just to remains clear: I never said Morrowind had a very rich storyline, neither did Daggerfall. Both had very subtle stories that you could entirely ignore because well... You could. However, they are clearly non-lineair.

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BG2 on the other hand is still linear in my opinion. KotOR gave many sidequests too, often with an option of acting good and evil. Heck, KotOR *has* an evil ending.

How evil can you be in BG2? If you pick an evil alignment and decide to play evil and your alignment begins to drop, you eventually get attacked by everybody. In the end, you still had to kill Irenicus and that was it. Yes you could make evil choices, but did they have a REAL impact? No. Throne of Bhaal didn't add much more in that aspect: you could become an evil or a good god (or remain mortal) which is up par with KotOR's good and evil ending. So your choice of good/evil is and always has been fake. In both games you can act evil and in both games you cannot be as evil as you want, because it'd destroy the storyline. You're still within the boundaries of the game's "evil".

Take Morrowind: You can kill almost anybody except for a handful of characters which are critical to the storyline. A handful out of several hundreds without consequence. Do that in BG2 and the guards WILL keep coming after you and eventually kill you (unless you cheat), in KotOR I don't even think you can just randomly attack everybody, at least not without failing the game.

Stronghold quests: nice addition and yes, I'll take that as an element of non-lineairity. It's similar to Morrowind, where you can get a stronghold as well and expand it, although I think BG2's stronghold quests are more fun, although not all stronghold quests are equally fun. Still, that's +1 on non lineairity.

Many sidequests: So did KotOR. So do most RPG's. Does it make them any less lineair? No. In the end each game will have the "fetch this" or "bring that" or "kill him" quests that aren't part of the main story. I will admit there are *many* in BG2, but as far as I remember there are many in KotOR as well. In the end, you'll spend more time on BG2 yes, but we all know the price KotOR paid for better graphics was a shorter game. So once more, I'll contradict myself and give BG2 credit on having so many sidequests.

In the end however, it's still lineair as the main quest is still there and not to be ignored (wheras I actually needed a guide to get on Daggerfall's mainquest, that obscure is how it was).

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BG2 has more gameplay elements than KotOR, but it's still lineair.

Which did I enjoy more? BG2 is the better rpg, it's bigger, more fun, etc. I finished it twice.

KotOR is the lesser of the two: shorter gameplay, shorter story (and the déjà vue feeling). I finished it four times.

The funny thing? BG2 was the 3rd game on the Infinity Engine (not counting expansions) and it was getting old as well. By the time I had finished the original, I was bored with it. It was a great game, but I really had seen it all and just couldn't replay it. The expansion lengthened it a bit and a year later I replayed it once.

KotOR on the other hand had nice graphics and compared to BG2 was quite refreshing, letting me replay it several times. Even for such a short game I still noticed new things after the third time (BG2 also had plenty of things I never noticed, but it's big enough for it as well).

Keep in mind of course that I dislike NWN + expansions, so I always ignore the fact that this game already had a 3d engine and KotOR wasn't the first to have one.

Good explanation, Master D Evil.
Although I still miss the Infinity Engine.

KOTOR plays like .... a console RPG game. though i never play any console game. it just looks a lot like one. this is based on my observation.

it's fairly simplistic (but tight enough to make things interesting) so that it caters to gamers of different platforms; PC, PS2, xbox. there are limitations in all the platforms to make the developers play it safe.

if u ignore the hype & awards given to KOTOR, u may enjoy it very much. u may even complain that it's too short, given the fun factor in there that practically oozes without stopping. so that's a bad picture i painted but i hope u know what i mean. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

well, i haven't played kotor as well, but i've played nwn and its expansions. perhaps the people here could give you a better judgement if you state what were those things that have prevented you from finishing nwn. if you find those in kotor as well, then maybe you will not find kotor to your liking also.

btw, i hope you're talking about the nwn oc, because the hotu expansion is a different story. while i found the oc to be too long and just running around doing quests and finding four artifacts, or four ingredients, or two pieces of evidence, hotu is truly epic in scope and much more focused. and the different builds you can make in hotu has enhanced nwn's replayability.

Thank you everyone for the feedback. You have given me the insight I was looking for.

To back up what Winterfox said. The characters in the story are fantastic. They irritate, please, and amuse you. There are several different ways to play. Mostly involving the light or the dark side. All PC variants are human however.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

What I also like is that almost every stat point is useful. You cannot 'powergame' without sacrificing something else. Any stat raised too high will take most of your starting points. You can create an uber-strong warrior that will slice through every tough enemy but would likely get paralysed and frazzled by a decent force-user. Well, if the AI wasn't so bad that is... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Especially that of your own party members. Its a minor thing however. I find the scripts for the characters to be useful most of time. Lifesaving even....

I find the linearity nice. i.e. not too linear but you remain on track. There are virtually no 'fed-ex' sub-quests and the puzzles are tricky but not too convoluted. Especially some of the mathmatical number puzzles.

Mostly I love this game because I am a fan of science fiction. Its scope and potential far outstrips that of fantasy but is rarely seen. I sit back and watch the lightsaber fights with a grin. (when I can) They are fantastically done. Being able to choke your opponents like Darth Vader or fry them like Sidious is priceless. You will never be lacking eye-candy in this game for sure.

It has its bugs. No game doesn't. There are one or two that can be exploited nicely too.... (features <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />) Others make you scream. I had several crashes with cut-scenes. Oddly enough my second time through they seemed to dissapear.

Honestly, all I can say is buy it, play it, love it. The force will free you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" /> (Sith creedo)

Womble, arch-geek. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

"The Force shall set me free", actually. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Yes, I can actually recite both the Sith and the Jedi Codes at this point, not to mention I can quote a fair number of choice lines from the NPCs (by memory). *waves "Geek" flag proudly*

BAHHH!!! Geeks!! *hands up, face in disgust & walks away in resignation* <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Well,what you are all missing here is that KotOR is an RPG game,and as such it must not only have great graphics and an addictive storyline (which it has both may I add), but it has to stick to some rules too...Has anyone ever played the SW RPG (the d20 one)? Well,if you had and then you played KotOR you'd be left with the sensation you get when you create a first level character in a session and then do everything you can to rule the galaxy...
I created a character based on my P&P character and enjoyed his progression through the game so much that after I've finished the game for the first time (with a Light Side male character) I went and played it three more times just to see the different plot twists and endings...It may be linear as some have said,but the thing is you don't know what will happen in the end like some other games...Even in DD you know what happens in the end (or you have suspicions about it),but all of you guys who are posting here have played it and loved it...Even Torment was linear from some point on,and Torment was the greatest RPG ever (or I think it is because I love Planescape <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />)
Anyways,I think that KotOR is the best there is right now (apart from BD) and KotOR II is on its way,so...'nuff said!!!

Nick the Greek <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

PS: And apart from all of that,it sure was better than Episodes I & II and added a huge load of info to the SW universe...It was the first time ever that a character (movie or otherwise) has walked the surface of Korriban... Glory to the Sith!!!