Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Less racism in the game?

I think that'd be a nice addition to the game, given how the treatment of numerous characters revolves entirely around whether they're white or not. Stuff like:

• Karlach getting an actual ending to her storyline, instead of the white male CEO of the studio declaring that death or enslavement are the endings she "deserves".
• Wyll getting any sort of content whatsoever that doesn't revolve around the writers having written him as too lazy to get powers without consorting with devils, because he's black (unlike Gale).
• Minthara not being regarded as an actual relationship, because the writers see her as non-white.
• Lae'zel's writing revolving entirely around her and her culture being savage and evil and stupid.
• An entire ethnic group whose storyline is about getting off to seeing them victimized, tortured, and killed while Larian's writers constantly tell you how Refugees Are Bad.

Oh, it's you again... you really don't have better things to do than spew nonsense on this forum?

I don't think racist means what you think it means.

I’ve responded to Thelxiope in a different thread asking them to be careful to keep discussions calm, constructive and friendly, especially when they touch on real life topics that are clearly going to be sensitive and personal for many.

And to avoid spamming the forum by repetitive posting.

I can see why, eg, the fact that the thread opener here doesn’t explain why anyone else should agree with Thelxiope’s take and the strong language, can give the impression that its purpose is to prompt controversy rather than to engage in good faith debate, especially when there have been a number of similar posts in a short period that also have seemed somewhat heated and provocative.

But while I’m asking Thelxiope to try harder to engage with other forum members in a positive, constructive way and to resist repeating the same points, I’m also going to ask anyone who isn’t interested in having a friendly, open debate that engages with Thelxiope’s points in good faith to simply ignore and move on.

Cheers, all!

I disagree with everything you've said, and I think that you're looking for something to be offended by. Here is why I think that you are incorrect.

Karlach:
Wyll: This is the one I disagree with the most, because -
Minthara:
Laezel: It is very well established DnD lore that this is how githyanki are. The writers are just portraying the lore accurately.

Tieflings: Where do Larian's writers tell you that refugees are bad? On the contrary, you get penalized quite harshly for not helping the tieflings, as you lose access to merchants and allies later on. As for the part about them being victimized, I'd like to point out that this is also true of the Gondians, and I don't see you complaining about them. I don't see what is the issue here.

The fact that Minthara is recruitable and a relationship option is genuinely surprising given she's portrayed as an antagonist initially. You'd need some really hard evidence that the reason why she isn't in more of the game is because she's a drow.
I really like that the writers did not go with the extremely lazy method of writing companions from unique cultural backgrounds of making them just an "outsider" who doesn't conform to their culture. With Lae'zel a big aspect of her character is she has a great deal of pride in her race and cultural upbringing. And the player gets the option to have her betray Vlaakith.
The Tiefling characters get a great deal of screentime and are often regularly portrayed heroically. Siding with the Tieflings is even the choice the game funnels you into which the majority of players end up doing. You can also see it with how Rolan

Sorry man but you
First I tried to read this but after the first sentence about Karlach its obvious you are either a troll or to dumb to be on the internet without adult supervision

Ahem!

Lol, what on earth is wrong with you in thinking this game promotes the idea that "Refugees are Bad"???

There's literally an entire segment of the game (Rivington) that revolves around showing the awful conditions they face and how badly they are treated. If you play as a Paladin, you frequently get conversation options where you emphasize Baldur Gate's diversity and openness. In fact, the entire Rivington segment is totally unnecessary for Act 3 and yet it's there, with refugees as the central plot point.

This just bad trolling. Go back to Tumblr to score victim points.

I’m going to respond to the original post in good faith, as I don’t think that the initial concerns deserve to be shut down in an off-hand way. Certainly not.

Some of the claims are confusing and need clarification. Specifically, the final bullet point about Larian suggesting refugees are bad. I don’t see that in the game at all. In fact, the game tries to get you very attached to the tiefling refugees, so that you see their side and sympathize with them when you arrive at Baldur’s Gate. And I do enjoy that aspect of the storyline. So what makes you feel that refugees are written as bad? Yes, there are people in the city who are against refugees, and yes, one of the supervillains of the game is victimizing the refugees for political gain. But that’s portrayed as villainy, not as what is right.

As regards to Minthara and Lae’zel, this critique makes a bit more sense to me. The claim seems to be that groups who are racially “other” (i.e., appear non-white) are portrayed as less likable, less sympathetic, etc. I’ll say two things here.

First, Larian did not come up with these ideas by themselves. It’s a legacy from DND fantasy worlds and great swaths of the fantasy genre. In many fantasies, the “racialized” or “non-white other” is in fact, often treated as evil or less sympathetic. Just think about the Lord of the Rings movies, for example. The Uruk’hai and the goblins are heavily portrayed as racially “other” in contrast to all of the white protagonists, and they are portrayed as evil. Or consider the goblins in Hogwarts Legacy being the villains of the plot. This is a fantasy genre trope, NOT a uniquely Larian trope. I think that mitigates criticism of Larian to a great degree, that they were reiterating staples of the DND fantasy world that they inherited for the game.

I’m not saying that the fantasy genre is right in portraying the racially “other” as evil. In fact, I think it’s deeply problematic.

Second, I will say that Larian gives the githyanki a major glow-up in this game. They are not actually portrayed as wholly evil, savage, and brutal, through and through. In fact, the origin character who I would consider to be one of the key protagonists of the game, Lae’zel, has tremendous character development, and you see so many layers to her. She’s a fully fleshed-out being, who can slaughter, sure, but she can also love, be loyal, become a devoted parent, in fact become a hero who saves Baldur’s Gate. And Orpheus, and a couple of other gith, like Varrl, contribute to that glow-up. In addition, players who play as a githyanki can roleplay as good. There’s a flexibility there, that grants the githyanki race more depth than they had prior to this game.

For what it’s worth, Larian also treats the tieflings (a group ostracized for their race) with great care, sympathy, and love. The game consistently challenges rude suppositions that the tieflings are demonic in character.

Now, when it comes to Wyll, I would not agree that they depict him as lazy. I think that they depict him as a heroic, kind of lawful good and bland guy. It’s clear that he doesn’t get quite as much love from the devs as some of the other characters. There are a few things that I would not describe as racism necessarily, but rather as implicit bias. For the sake of having a constructive discussion, using a term like “implicit bias” could be helpful.

So there are clearly problems with Wyll. Yes, he lacks content compared to some of the other companions. And yes, it was in bad taste for Mizora to keep talking about him as a dog and having him on a leash, considering the legacy of slavery in the US. I know that the game was not developed in the US, but devs should know that it’s going to be heavily consumed here. But I think that these things, especially the lack of content, are due to an implicit bias, and not out and out racism.

I agree that Karlach’s arc, as well, should have been concluded within the main game. The other characters get that. However, I don’t think this has to do with her race at all. I simply think that they ran out of time and energy to develop her properly. They did whitewash her as opposed to their original vision, so I’m not sure that she should be considered “non-white” exactly. And the tieflings are treated so sympathetically as a race in any event.

A reliable test of good faith is do they come back and engage people's objections with calm and rational counterarguments...or do they just do a runner after dropping that giant troll turd on the doorstep.

My bet is on the latter, but only because I'm old and have lost faith in humanity and the former would require so much more in terms of patience, knowledge, wisdom, and intelligence.

Don't forget about the portrayal of gay people as terrorists who love blowing stuff up more than their partner. (Philomeen)

Some people are really off their meds.

Gay people can be terrorists. Crazy, right?!

I do love a good schizo thread Whom are we crucifying?

Ahem again. Please let’s not have any more insulting posts: no matter what you think of what someone else has said, it’s not on. And while I really don’t want to have to start giving warnings for failing to adhere to moderator guidance, this is the third moderator intervention in this thread and that’ll be the next step if I need to come over here again.

On the flip side, thank you to everyone who has kept things light and friendly, and/or engaged in good faith! Or even just decided that if they can’t do that, then they’re best ignoring this thread and moving on

Larian portrays the Gith as per Forgotten Realms canon, including their appearance and cultural characteristics. Far from stupid the Gith as we are constantly reminded have access to extensive knowledge. Yes they are martial, violent, and arrogant, but that is how they are supposed to be portrayed.

Plenty of vanilla "white" characters are portrayed in a negative light.

I think you are mistaking people in-universe disliking refugees, as being voices of the writers...

Bad characters are allowed to do and think bad things.

OP doesn't know shit, Laezel's culture is accurately portrayed, Githyanki are violent, evil and savage, if you want Nice Gith you have the Githzerai,

Tieflings in BG3 are treated slightly better in this game, in the source material they're treated much worse

If you want to complain, bring it up with WoTC since BG3 is based off of D&D, Faerun is the main setting of D&D, both Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate exists in the tabletop.

There’s no need to be mean to OP. They’re trying to express their concerns, some of which are valid. Granted, they could have used a post title that would be less likely to make people feel defensive and angry, but… you also have the choice to respond calmly, and try to see if there’s something valid in their point of view.

There are posts on Twitter all the time about how problematic it is that Wyll, as the only black origin character, has the least content of all of the origins, and his quest fizzles terribly. There are conversations on other sites about implicit bias in the game. So I don’t feel that it’s fair to greet one of the only posts that mentions this on these whole forums with out and out hostility.