Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) Technical Problems The Last word on Copy Protection?

Hi,

After reading numerous posts about the Starforce 3 protection, I feel I have to post.

I used to work for a software protection company and spent many years investigating the cracking scene and devising new ways to protect a companies software. Our results at the end of the day were always inevitable.

The one major element that many publishers do not wish to admit when applying copy protection to CD's is the fact that crackers do not crack games for profit - they do it for the challenge, because to them;

challenge = fun.

This means that the harder/more difficult the copy protection employed, the more they'll want to crack it simply because we are offering up a 'challenge'.

I recall a time when a 'certain' company stated in their newsletter that "our key has all the crackers dumbfounded - no one has or will manage to break our encryption". A challenge if there ever was one and only two weeks after that statement was published, it was cracked and those responsible were so overjoyed at being the first to break the 'unbreakable' that the solution was posted everywhere.

Granted, Starforce 3 protection is quite a complex beast to tame - spiral data tracks with a varying time structure to create time specific delays (or even storing data in a 16 byte P/Q-subchannel) is a clever idea but it certainly isn't unbreakable. Data Position Measurement or Recordable Media Physical Signature, for example, can bypass most protection systems.

My point? Well, Starforce 3 has been cracked before and I can guarantee you that it will not be long before it will be cracked here too. Whether we like it or not it is inevitable and those responsible will ensure that the world knows how 'talented' they are by posting the solution everywhere. Not only that, to promote their skills they'll advertise it in places where it wouldn't normally appear - they're the genius' after all, they managed to evolve a way around a protection method we've spent years and millions designing.

Of course, the argument will rise that by the next release we'll employ Starforce '4'. Yet another challenge for the crackers and in another month they'll have that one fixed too. In the meantime, however, numerous legitimate consumers will continue to suffer from difficulties in starting or running the product because the security is so well developed that even original data discs can, and often are, mistaken for an illegal copy. In addition, legitimate software such as Virtual Drive etc (which is used legitimately by many people) will have to be uninstalled while drivers for the CD protection are installed into the device manager. As many developers are well aware, the Windows OS is a fickle beast and some configurations can lead to random system crashes and unexpected reboots.

This results in numerous help desks having to deal with copy protection 'issues' which increases the companies costs and this has to be accounted for. These costs may reflect by a reduction of the development time on a project, on regular updates, or even may have to be passed onto the end consumer.

The inevitable conclusion is to consider that if a person does not wish to purchase the software, they will download it and if they can't download it, then they simply won't play it. Indeed, if someone is willing to download 1.5 Gb of software (or perhaps more) rather than buy it, employing severe copy protection (that harms the legitimate users) is not going to change their minds into buying it. The result is that the software companies don't loose out because the illegal user would not purchase the software anyway. What's more, many legitimate users who have paid $50 or more constantly contact the help desk in an attempt to solve copy protection issues rather than just use the software out of the box. And this does affect sales - no matter how good the publicity on a game is, word of mouth sells more, and if users complain that it "takes ages to get it to work" - the companies loose profits.

So should we protect software? Of course we should, we all have the right to protect out intellectual property but there are limits as to how much we wish to harm the legitimate users in an attempt to prevent those who are not. However, we should not be so forceful on the protection as to deter legitimate buyers. A simple key generated from the users configuration can sometimes suffice. Naturally, a 'keygen' will appear over time but the people who use this would not have purchased the software anyway and the crackers involved would not be so willing to promote their skills over producing such a small amount of code.

If people are not going to buy software - they wont. Perhaps it's time to face that conclusion and not reflect our piracy problems onto those who will.

My point? Well, Starforce 3 has been cracked before and I can guarantee you that it will not be long before it will be cracked here too.

Yes, and there's a huge difference whether it's cracked before or shortly after the release and months after the game has been released...
So, yes, a copy-protection is worthwhile.

I am speaking for myself, not for Larian Studios, but here ends my share, because this is a never-ending story. Don't feel offended, it's just the way I see it.

Regards,
Lynn

Hi and welcome, LaCie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> - your post is very interesting. Can you tell me if a Dev company is free in choosing the cp? Or is this an agreement between Dev and publisher? Or maybe a sort of "order" the publisher wants, because this company (for whatever reason) favours a certain cp software? So, no agreement to a certain CP => no contract between Dev and publisher?


As my English is limited, I didn't quite understand, if the "permission" to play a game by a key is given via Internet-online request from the user to the Dev download site. Could you explain this, please? I'm asking, because I'm thinking about a lot of gamers, who don't have internet access.

Another thing (as a librarian lending games to users) - would this key then prevent the 2nd/3rd user to install the game if your method would spread? Would there be conflicts then?
Kiya <very curious>

Hi Kiya,

I'm not a developer or a publisher (I used to work in developing copy protection systems) so I'm afraid I don't know the answer to your question. Perhaps one of the developers may be able to field that one.

As for the generated key, yes the users may require internet access but then for nearly all P.C (and Mac) based software it's almost a requirement to have internet access. All software that is developed today for the computer platform will have updates to fix bugs that have been found by the end user of the product.

Even if not, the computer could generate a code based on the motherboard and processor fitted (as does plenty of software today - even Windows XP!) and you could phone the help desk for a response code in order to use the product.

Since this key is specific to the computer being used, users of other computers could not use it as a new key would be generated on each computer. A method that (from reading other posts in this forum) Beyond Divinty uses if the copy protection method fails.

As for lending games to other users (not sure if copyright infringement is in place here) a new key is created from each machine depending on its configuration (i.e. not specifically embedded in the product) so it wouldn't matter who used the game (or maybe employ a simpler CD insert notification system?). It could also permit the company to keep a record of how many products have been sold.

Hm, well I don't think the members of my library would phone up for a key if they borrow a game for 4 weeks and have no internet access (you'd be surprised how many have no access <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> ). And as many libraries (at least in Germany) do what we do - how will Devs/publishers keep track of sale records? OK, this is minor, of course and would be a prob of libraries/videotheques.

Another thing => if I make a backup copy (never done that, but I read this forum) and lend this backup copy to my friend/relative/enemy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> - will this work as well with the generated permission key? Or only with the original?

Sorry, I'm terribly curious - and wondering a bit about how/if my privacy infos might be spied out by this, because I'm still wondering with which info I legitimate, I'm the legal user.
Kiya

The generated key would work with a backup copy of the game CDs, but only on the original computer. Basically the game would check the computer it is running on when started, rather than a play CD (which would no longer be required). If the computer was upgraded too much or a new system bought, a new key would have to be requested. The downside to this is that if the developer / publisher ever goes out of business or drops support for the game, you would be unable to play the game on a different system.

The key generation would work about the same way Windows / Office XP activation does. The game would examine the computer hardware, generate a key based on that information, and compare it with the key provided by the developer / publisher. If too many differences were found, it would refuse to run without a new key. If it is done right, there are not really any privacy issues, since the code the game would generate could not be used to work backward and get information about the list of hardware used.

Hm, so the lending business (the legally allowed ones => licences for videotheques/libraries) would be in trouble then, if the key is connected to the PC hardware system (even with the original CD, right?), as members would not have the same system <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />
If I understood you correctly, Raze => this would be violating current law, as access to science, knowledge etc. would be restricted. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

I had one cd (driver's license theory exercises) requiring a key based on your hardware configuration and it was a never ending nightmare.

Problem 1: I use up to four different computers (being: my own (at home and at my parent's house), my parent's computer and my boyfriend (well I guess I should be saying my fiancé now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )'s computer.
If I remember correctly, the combination you had to enter was based on your cd key AND on the hardware config. (Using the cd key to make sure one cd only gets one key). So, for starters I had to request for different keys.
You got the first one for free, but starting with the second one you had to call/send an email to the support requesting another key, explaining the reasons why you needed another key.
So far, so good.

Problem 2: I have two different sound amplifiers (a little one and a better one for when playing opera music etc. from the computer). Alternating these two gave a different hardware config, and thus a different cd code.
Also, back then I had only one port which could be used for either the printer or the scanner. Again, alternating the two gave a different hardware config.

It's a good thing I never needed those driver license exercises for a long time, because even in the few weeks I actually needed them they gave me a real headache.
And oh yeah, by the time my brother and sister were learning the theory, we had bought a new computer and we had the same problems all over again...

I think companies that create copy protection systems would have a problem with loaning or renting games. They would have to come up with a time limited key, to prevent people from playing the game after returning the CDs. Then they would need to figure out which CDs were owned and which were rentals, either by distributing different versions, or by keeping track of how many CD keys are requested for a given CD. They would need to put a lot more work into key management for this, when they know they are likely going to get less money out of it through lost game sales. Long games or those with a good replay value could be sold based on people renting/borrowing the full game, but I don't think that covers the majority of games.

Ok, I know lending/borrowing business is not the majority - but I buy every 1 1/2 to 2 yrs a new PC - hardware and software as well. So, if this kind of protection would become standard => I'd have to get a larger flat to keep all old PC - jot down on my box games which PC is the correct one for playing - or make friends with the idea that I'm simply collecting games (not replayable).
Naw, <sulk> not what I would like.
Kiya

What Desdemona describes is indeed a nightmare - at least for me. I'm already confused with what I have on 2 PC.

There is also another copy protection I once ran into - which made the game completely unplayable for me: Arcanum has such a stupid protection you only can install it from a normal CD-Rom drive. Alas, I have both a CD-writer and a DVD-drive, but not a normal CD-Rom. I bought the game and never could install it...

And while it's annoying to have to wait for the game to check the disk every time I start playing, that's a copy protection I can live with. Any copy protection that doesn't interfere with the actual installing or playing is okay by me.

What I hated about the protection was this. If your CD-Drives are SCSI or/and Plextor you can't use them. The game (BD:patch145) refuses to run if the CD is in either my Plextor 40s reader or Plextor 4012S burner. Both are scsi.

This is also a problem with Sacred if I remember right.

It did run from my Samsung DVD-Rom with zonefree firmware.

The installing also was a pain. Had to copy the files from the CD's down to the harddisk to get it to install.

What I wonder is if they are gonna work at all with newer CD-Roms using S-ATA rather than P-ATA...

Some interesting posts in this thread - I would agree with the point that copy protection is a fruitless exercise ultimately. Even if most users are unable to break it, all it requires is one person to post details (or a cracked copy) on the Internet. Ultimately, no distribution of digital data (be it software, music or films) can be fully controlled, and attempting to do so is futile.

So is this the end for content providers? Not necessarily - what they need to do is encourage people to pay for content, rather than trying to force them through hindrances like Digital Rights Management, CD-checks and the like (which have the effect of punishing legitimate purchasers). Online games almost universally use a CD-Key rather than a CD-check (a tacit admission by software companies that they recognise CD checks to be a problem) which can be verified online.

This however cannot be done with games that are played offline. So instead, I would suggest that companies use an optional CD-key which purchasers could then enter to access additional content from the publisher's website. The optional part is important here - compulsory registration (effectively Product Activation) will mean that the gamer is left high and dry if/when the company goes out of business (if it can happen to the likes of Looking Glass or Black Isle, then it can happen to anyone else). If I purchase a game, I expect to be able to install and play it 10-20 years from now (I'm currently playing games 6-7 years old so I do not think it unrealistic that good games should have that much longevity).

A better alternative for broadband users would be to make games available via download (using a service like TotalGaming.net). That way, the game producer gets a far larger cut of the purchase price (bypassing the publishers', distributors' and shops' markups) and each copy can have a unique ID embedded - if this shows up on filesharing networks, that user loses the ability to access further content.

Larian's use of Starforce 3 makes this point in other ways. It needs updating for XP SP2 - now how's that for a limited lifespan? Even if Starforce is updated how about XP SP3? Longhorn? Linux with WineX? What guarantee do purchasers have of being able to install or run Beyond Divinity in the near future? None whatsoever.

StarForce doesn't require XP SP2, it works fine on XP, XP SP1 and XP SP2. In certain circumstances, problems may arise with XP SP2 beta, in this case you need to upgrade to XP SP2 release.

Stargazer has an interesting point there with the 'legal game downloads'. Not so long ago me and my bf had a discussion on this, but music, for example how it is so silly to declare that it is illegal to download music for free and yet you are allowed to buy a tape, stick it in your hi fi and record from the radio! Same with video tapes, but copying a dvd...

Of course I'm not saying i agree with piracy, I don't, although a couple of my friends do download games. In fact one knew i wanted Beyond Divinity and downloaded for me, and in fact was going to try and crack it, but i said no, i like to have the proper copy and went and bought it the other day! lol. Anyway back to my original point:

I suggested about the music thing, something similar to Stargazers game point. A website that works with most/all music companies, and basically pays £10 for every album they release. The songs would then have to be put up on a site (all properly protected etc to minimise illegal copying etc) and you could pay say 50p a day to just listen to any of the songs on the site, or you could pay something like £50 a year to download up to, say, 1000 songs. Less CD's would need printing, hence less expenses for the companies, plus it would become a popular way to buy music, take up less storage (physically) and a good way to decide if you like a new song or not. Of course there would still be ways round it but still...

So yes, a game download site would be cool. You could say, pay just for that game and not be a member (you'd pay more of course) or you could have a yearly subscription which would of course work out more if you only downloaded a couple of games, but would be cheaper for both consumer and developer/publisher if a lot of that game were downloaded. Also members could download free demo's to see if they were willing to pay for the full game.

On the subject of copy protection as of now, well i've never had any problems except with Sacred. I could run it fine with the first couple of patches, then 1.66 came out and i kept getting a crash when i tried to run it because i have a CDRW with Nero software, but they did a good job and released patch 1.66c which fixed the problems anyone had where copy protection was crashing the game due to conflicts with drives.

Thanks for the clarification Drealmer - but does this not still indicate that Starforce can cause compatibility issues with future Windows updates?

Pevil,

Going OT a little, you can download licenced MP3 tracks from the Russian site www.allofmp3.com. These are licenced through ROMS (Russian Organization for Multimedia and digital Systems), available in a variety of formats and are DRM-free for $10/GB. See this Slashdot thread for more details. Since every current DRM system limits the number of computers you can play media on, this means that customers will lose the ability to play such music after that number of PC upgrades.

Yes, it indicates that Windows service packs and releases can be incompatible with StarForce... *BUT* it also indicates that Microsoft cares about StarForce, because the compatibility problem has been explicitely solved on the final release of the SP2.

Will Microsoft continue Windows support for StarForce in the long time ? I can't tell the future, but since StarForce is used by more and more games each day, Microsoft would not do a smart move by saying "hello, here is the new Windows, please buy it but notice that 95% of your games wont run on it"...

@ ARabbitofHabit

Very often its not the actual SCSI drive that is creating the hassles with games... its the SCSI adapter....

because there are just sooo many millions of scsi card brands available, most of the games only gets tested with the major brands...

the most compatible is still adaptec for some reason.... also if you go into your SCSI card's configuration (you will have to press some key combination to enter it - very often shift +s, but it can be anything - your card should display a message as to what the combination is), this takes you into the card's "bios", you will have various read and error handling options for your hard drives and cd roms... [color:"red"] DO NOT MESS WITH THE HARD DRIVE SETTINGS... [/color] if you do, its likely your machine wont boot if it runs of SCSI hard drives. for the cd roms, write down the original settings, and then try to change some of the settings for it, and see which settings your games work with, if you get it working, GOOD WORK, if not, just set the settings back to the originals....

@ the future compatibility issues with starforce.

Its not likely that microsoft will stop supporting starforce in the near future (5 years), microsoft has to attend to compatibiltiy issues of any program that gets used by a medium to large amount of people (they had a percentage and estimated figure of the amount of people on the site, will hunt for the link in the morning - right now its past bed time). STarfoce falls well into the category. And i will double check this as well, but is starforce not a MS partner at the moment??? or at least a MS approved company???? I have this profound memory of reading that somewhere.