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Rogue Fails :( #555663
24/09/14 12:55 PM
24/09/14 12:55 PM
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LeBurns Offline OP
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I've been playing though with the new companions and while the Ranger seems to work fine, and I'm familiar with the class from my last game, the rogue ... well.

Right now I'm at level 7, still on the first map, clearing out the last sections. I kid you not, at the end of every combat the rogue is dead 50% of the time. I just can't keep this guy alive.

Combat generally goes like this. First round he goes invisible and moves up to the enemies, generally targeting mages and such. Second round he'll get in three or four back stabs (IF I CAN EVER GET HIM POSITIONED RIGHT!). That's generally it as he's dead the next round. If he does survive I have him teleport out and hide in the bushes.

The guy must have some giant 'KILL ME!' sign on his back or something as everyone seems to target him as soon as he's visible. It may be because of the major sneak attack damage he just did in his last turn, so all enemies consider him the most dangerous apparently and target him. I'm to the point now where I have to go back to town and stock up on res scrolls just for him.

So how do you guys keep him alive?

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #555670
24/09/14 03:08 PM
24/09/14 03:08 PM
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MorteCerta Offline
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Did you considered taking the Stench talent?

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #555677
24/09/14 06:20 PM
24/09/14 06:20 PM
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Rynasi Offline
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Try saving enough APs and positioning yourself to end each turn in stealth.

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #555678
24/09/14 06:30 PM
24/09/14 06:30 PM
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LeBurns Offline OP
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How can I go into Stealth again if it's in cool down?

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #555683
24/09/14 07:07 PM
24/09/14 07:07 PM
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nbog Offline
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Originally Posted By: LeBurns
How can I go into Stealth again if it's in cool down?


Sneaking has no cooldown. You can sneak for 1 AP in combat if you have 5 sneaking (as long as you're not within any enemy's sight cone). You can get 2 from items.

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #555684
24/09/14 07:09 PM
24/09/14 07:09 PM
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Rumor Offline
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Sneak doesn't have a cool down like Walk in Shadows does. So long as you are behind the enemy lines and out of their direct line of sight, you can enter stealth mode for one action point.



Last edited by Rumor; 24/09/14 07:10 PM. Reason: Edited for spelling
Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #555690
24/09/14 09:37 PM
24/09/14 09:37 PM
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I guess OP is confusing Sneak with Walk in Shadows? Sneak = press 'C' on your keyboard.

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #555702
25/09/14 03:22 AM
25/09/14 03:22 AM
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synra Offline
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Sneak is key. I actually find rogues to be much more viable than rangers early game. Rogues' damage picks up much more quickly. If you want your rogue to be safe, pick a target behind whom you will be out of sight (e.g. an archer at the back of a fight), and save a few action points to hide at the end of each turn). Works a lot better with glass cannon... so that those few action points aren't your whole turn.

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #555746
25/09/14 12:43 PM
25/09/14 12:43 PM
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I'll try sneaking, but he's generally in someone's sight cone after he makes his sneak attacks.

He died again in the last battle though.
Click to reveal..
Fighting that doctor's apprentice in her hideout. He went invisible, walked behind her and started doing sneak attacks the following turn. Great damage but he's surrounded by the summons she brings in. He lasted a while ... but died again.

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #555750
25/09/14 01:56 PM
25/09/14 01:56 PM
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Er, so don't end up in someone's sight cone. smile You'll get it, just takes some practice and experimentation. Pretty sure my rogue has not died once in my current playthrough!

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #555818
26/09/14 07:24 AM
26/09/14 07:24 AM
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Thorsten Offline
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For the rogue to shine you need even more crowd control. Ideally only the opponent character that is attacked by the rogue can move.

Itエs an enormous amount of effort, thatエs why I have simply given up on the rogue - the return on investment (of effort) is obejectively low (looking at fight results) but may be satisfying for some people. Not for me, there are a lot of easier ways.

Regards,
Thorsten

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #555827
26/09/14 08:10 AM
26/09/14 08:10 AM
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nbog Offline
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I'm having a lot of fun with my rogue. He does a ton of damage (thanks to Guerrilla, Bully and Tenebrium daggers) and has loads of CC at his disposal: knockdown, stun, blind, silence and TWO charms. And just in case CC fails or is on cooldown, he has three skills that allow him to reposition himself without provoking an attack of opportunity. He's probably my 2nd favorite party member next to my warrior.

Last edited by nbog; 26/09/14 08:11 AM.
Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: Thorsten] #555851
26/09/14 01:16 PM
26/09/14 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: Thorsten
For the rogue to shine you need even more crowd control. Ideally only the opponent character that is attacked by the rogue can move.

Itエs an enormous amount of effort, thatエs why I have simply given up on the rogue - the return on investment (of effort) is obejectively low (looking at fight results) but may be satisfying for some people. Not for me, there are a lot of easier ways.

Regards,
Thorsten


Well I'll keep using the companion rogue as the only reason I'm playing right now is to see the story for the new characters. But he's still dying ... often. Maybe when he gets up to around level 10+ he'll be better. He's level 8 now. Trying do the church since I got owned by that fire statue thing. Only two things I have left on this map.

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #555875
26/09/14 07:37 PM
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synra Offline
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Once you understand how the AI thinks, it gets much easier to have your rogue survive. Just think, "which way will each enemy charge?" and have your rogue hiding somewhere else ^^

The AI will never go looking for hidden targets when a visible target is available (even if the latter is far away). It has a learning curve, it works better when the stars align (glass cannon, guerilla, sneak 5), but I find rogues both extremely fun and extremely powerful.

If my maths is correct, for 3AP (sneak + attack), Rogues can do 8x their weapon damage (double hit, guerilla, autocrit = 2x2x2). That's some pretty serious stuff (especially when you end up generating 15-20 AP per turn).

Last edited by synra; 26/09/14 07:53 PM.
Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: synra] #555882
26/09/14 10:19 PM
26/09/14 10:19 PM
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nbog Offline
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Originally Posted By: synra
If my maths is correct, for 3AP (sneak + attack), Rogues can do 8x their weapon damage (double hit, guerilla, autocrit = 2x2x2). That's some pretty serious stuff (especially when you end up generating 15-20 AP per turn).


Throw in another 50% from Bully and rogues can do massive damage, especially with crafted Tenebrium daggers at 7 Tenebrium for a 70% damage increase and an additional 15% damage increase from a different character who has 4+ Leadership.

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #555906
27/09/14 05:30 AM
27/09/14 05:30 AM
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synra Offline
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Right, but those effects are readily available to other classes, making them less of a comparison point smile

I guess it does illustrate a nice part of rogue buffs though in that they should work multiplicatively rather than just additively with other buffs.

E.g. if they were just each +100% damage on hit, the effect would be much less than having things like double hits, and crits (which multiply total damage).

Last edited by synra; 27/09/14 05:32 AM.
Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #555984
28/09/14 06:04 AM
28/09/14 06:04 AM
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Well, maybe you shouldn't jump in that quickly. Wait till another character is in close combat to teleport and hide in the melee, or wait till the mobs can't all gang on your rogue.

Having one guy alone jump in a group of ennemies doesn't sound healthy you know smile

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: melianos] #555990
28/09/14 09:26 AM
28/09/14 09:26 AM
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nbog Offline
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Originally Posted By: melianos
Well, maybe you shouldn't jump in that quickly. Wait till another character is in close combat to teleport and hide in the melee, or wait till the mobs can't all gang on your rogue.

Having one guy alone jump in a group of ennemies doesn't sound healthy you know smile


It works fine as long as you attack from the back (of where the enemies are facing). As long as you save enough AP to sneak at the end of the round, you should be fine most of the time.

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #556049
29/09/14 03:10 PM
29/09/14 03:10 PM
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Well I'm in a pickle now.

I'm on the second map and everyone is levels 10-11. I'm clearing some map because I'm not high enough level to take on the spiders and what-not. I've gotten all the way to the goblin camp where they are all sleeping ... and it is just killing my party that I have a rogue. Best he can do is get in one turn of sneak attacks, which maybe knocks someone's health down to about half, and then it's all about trying to hide him and run away before he dies, which is all but impossible when there are like 10 enemies ... all tough. He might as well not even be there except he draws there attention for the one turn it takes to kill him.

Now I either change the game difficulty or just quit. Honestly I'm really getting tired anyway with these difficulty spikes this game has. I've cleared about everything else I can and am left with just this sleeping camp or on to the dust storm area, which I know I'm not ready for.

Re: Rogue Fails :( [Re: LeBurns] #556050
29/09/14 03:28 PM
29/09/14 03:28 PM
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nbog Offline
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Originally Posted By: LeBurns
Well I'm in a pickle now.

I'm on the second map and everyone is levels 10-11. I'm clearing some map because I'm not high enough level to take on the spiders and what-not. I've gotten all the way to the goblin camp where they are all sleeping ... and it is just killing my party that I have a rogue. Best he can do is get in one turn of sneak attacks, which maybe knocks someone's health down to about half, and then it's all about trying to hide him and run away before he dies, which is all but impossible when there are like 10 enemies ... all tough. He might as well not even be there except he draws there attention for the one turn it takes to kill him.

Now I either change the game difficulty or just quit. Honestly I'm really getting tired anyway with these difficulty spikes this game has. I've cleared about everything else I can and am left with just this sleeping camp or on to the dust storm area, which I know I'm not ready for.


I know exactly the place that you are talking about. I just finished Hiberheim and I went exploring a bit and killed these goblins just for fun. Wolgraff can charm up to 2 people with Charming Touch and Rapture (requires only an Expert Marksman investment of 1 which is also Dex based).

At any rate, he's far less likely to die if you move him to the far back of where the enemies are facing and end his turn with Sneaking. This is easy to do with Fast Track (movement boost), Walk in Shadows (invisibility) and Cloak and Dagger (6 AP to move to any in sight location within 15 meters, alternatively you can use Tactical Retreat for just 4 AP if you have 1 Expert Marksman).

My Wolgraff has Glass Cannon and he has never died. He also has a good amount of CC at his disposal (in addition to the 2 charms I already mentioned): stun (Razor's Edge), knockdown (Trip) and blind (Eye Gouge).

I would recommend sticking with him until you get the hang of him. Once you do, it makes everything a lot easier. He can deal damage on par with a 2H warrior and they are the kings of damage.

Last edited by nbog; 29/09/14 03:34 PM.
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