Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - Game Master Does GM mode even need to be saved?

I thought GM mode was going to be great. It's good but very lacking in features that would let you run a long term campaign.

Based on the amount of games I see in the lobby and the dwindling forum activity it appears to not be near as big as I thought it would be.

Maybe people are playing more direct connect games I don't see and maybe those of us wanting to run large long term campaigns are in the minority.

I've canned the campaign I have been working on since launch till Larian adds the required features for a real long term campaign.

Am I missing something. Are people running more GM mode that what I see going on? I feel like many people have been asking for the same things over and over with no response and given up.

I'm not even sure what the point of this post was anymore. Just trying to see if I'm basically wasting my time trying to do long term d&d style campaigns.

I can't speak for others, but I have been running a long term campaign ever since the game was released.
I have wishes, but nothing is a "must have" for my campaign to continue for years to come.
GM Mode is awesome.
And yes, my game is private.

How do you plan to handle player death?

No problem unless it's a party wipe, and that also ain't a problem.
The party resurrects, or in case of a party wipe and I really want to keep the characters, they are captives ready to be sacrificed or whatever.
Worst case senario: some or all players need to recerate their characters.
A bit of work, but no problem.
And most certainly not a game breaker.

We have a saying: "Where there is a will, there is a way."
We as a group have a will, and Larian has given us many many ways.

I am not actively playing a campaign but I am actively building one and have been (off and on) since probably a week after launch. I've probably got around 40 hours of dev time sunk into it and I expect enough content to last for 4 or 5 sessions (at 3-4 hours a piece). I'm not planning on abandoning it, and while there are certainly some 'nice to haves' I'm not sure what your non-starter issues are.

You are basically giving the same argument peope said back in days of BioWares Neverwinter Nights 1.

Back then BioWare released stats that showed that the GM Tool was the least used Feature.
It was true but the point was that one GM created content for dozens of players. I was running a Persistant World with 90 Players every night for three years, together with four other GMs. So four GMs created content for 90 players and our server was one of the smaller ones. There were and are, till this day, RP Servers running 24/7 für hundreds of players at once (think the biggest has a cluster with 2100 Players and 8 GMs).

Now in Devinity the ratio is obviously 1:4. And Devinity GM mode is inferior than the NwN 1 GM Tool while the UI is slicker and the game is better.

Most games are, I imagine, private. Which makes sense, however I do think Larian really dropped the ball when it comes to provide a social hub for GMs to find players. Its not even possible to copy & paste the discord link out of the lobby chat or the campaign discribtion. As it stands now the GM Mode is a horrible designed tool to let random people play together or to put it another way to guide the right players to the right GM. It would have been really easy with a little more effort.

I have put roughly 230 hours into Devinity, only in the GM Mode and a bit in the Toolset, I haven't even touched the main game. The inhability to communicate and find new players is the biggest bummer for me right now. I love providing content and stories for people arround the world and there is absolutly nothing like that on that technological scale in games right now. I really think they missed a huge oppurtunity here and I hope they deliver something in the next months.

The reason people still buy NWN 1 after 15 years of its release is because of the incredible Toolset which is aimed towards storytellers and the massive DM Tool.

This game's GM tool is vastly superior to NwN's DM Client.
It's 15 years of modding, and 2 expansions, that made NwN and it's DM Client what it is today.
I also prefer this game's editor over NwN's toolset. I finally can build anything I can envision instead of being forced to use tilesets, that for the most part are rather ugly.
Sure NwN scripting is probably easier, but who needs scripting as a GM anyway right?

If you are looking for a hybrid "DM enhanced mini MMO" experience then indeed, NwN is still the way to go, but if you are looking for a virtiual table top to run PnP-like roleplaying sessions, there can be no doubt, DOS2 has the GM Mode that is vastly superior to NwN.

Your points are well taken but then again you condradict yourself. What you are saying about the DM Mode can be said about the technology between NwN1 and Devinity. Yes, Devinity GM Mode is aimed to bring back the PnP expierence but so was the DM Mode in NwN 1 and it could do more.

If I look back I know it started quite soon witht the DMFI Mods and the first version of NWNX, which basically kicked of PWs.
The restriction to Tileset was a curse and a blessing. Curse if you saw yourself as an artists and modder since you had to use 3rd Party Programms like 3DMax but then again the Toolset had an API for it from the get go.
A blessing if you were a storyteller. Needed a city, baam you got a city, needed a forrest, baam you got a forrest. It was up to the storyteller to decide where the cave entrance is, how the forrest is layed out etc. The Toolset in Devinity is certainly nice and I am enjoying building my stand alone adventure. However, it is too big and complicated to be really used dynamically by most users.
If I play PnP live I can get minatures, I can build a whole set and paint it, I can sculp a castle or I just use my Pen and Paper, scrible the layout of the dungeon on it. I think that is where the GM Tool fails. On the one hand it is easy to use on the other hand the infrastructure behind is too stiff.

I wished instead of sences we had to some sort of system where we could connect dungeons parts together into one scene, corridor with t-section etc. Or a forrest tileset where I can paint the path myself, something along the lines.

The Devinity GM Mode is very good in simluating PnP Session but it lacks the advantages of actually beeing a computer game. It could use more dynamic usage, more interaction for the other players to do.

If you play PnP live and you try to solve a situation with one player, other players talk to each other. Make jokes, eat, play with their dice, make doodles and show it to the player sitting next to them etc. All they can do in a Devinity is run arround, spin their characters. They can't talk to each other because of voicechat technology.
That is where scripting becomes a factor. In NwN 1 I could implement a dice game, I could use triggers to make little side activities while I played out the plot for one character. I could let players roam, let them split up and let them explore something by themselfs and they would suddenly shout out! "Hey , I found something here." In Devinity you have to stop the action describe everything if one players finds something and the others have to hold their action.

Devinity GM mode is the closest a videogame ever came to simulate a PnP expierence but they forgot the activity that happends arround the table while playing live.

So basically your agruments come down to:
NwN's toolset was easier to use.
Well that's true. Technology has advanced and became more powerfull and complex.

And that's what it is all about isn't it?

I agree mostly with Red, and have to partially disagree with your points my ol' friend Fandarin, but you do have some valid and good points. (And that's what is most important to stress out here in the forums rather than just saying everything is fine as it is).

1. I think we should not mix GM Mode with Editor/Toolset, although they are intervened of course. When praising the simplicity of NWN1 toolset with DOS Editor i think you rather should take NWN2 toolset as fair comparison. Here you suffered the same issues with the complexity and increased workload to setup something nice within the engine's possibilities. But heck, I was so happy to finally see some more advanced graphics and possibilities including real terrain and landscapes. I think the library of custom maps will increase heavily over time and the dynamic inclusion via GM Mode isn't that bad if not saying it's really good implementation (sure they are not mapped by the storyteller herself but well i thought it is about storytelling)
   An editor interchange export import file could be handy though. Rather than repacking a mod, changing it in the editor and so on, it would be nice to have a prefab file format for import/export (but that's about the work in the editor)
   
   
   Originally Posted by Fandarin

   Yes, Devinity GM Mode is aimed to bring back the PnP expierence but so was the DM Mode in NwN 1 and it could do more.
   [...]
   The Devinity GM Mode is very good in simluating PnP Session but it lacks the advantages of actually beeing a computer game.
2. I think NWN DM Mode could do more, that's true, but on the other side it's capacity to bring back PnP tabletop experience was much inferior to DOS. PnP is kind of turn based and so i like to have a turn based computer adaption. Not just the fights but also RP encounters and actions. And to be honest the etiquette of most NWN RP servers was the same. You had to have patience, wait for your turn and not just run around like a wind-up toy. I remember you Fandarin also made use of the pause button on one of our few private LAN sessions.
   I am so happy to have a more calmed down turn based experience, even if it is not feeling any more like a "computer game"
   
   
   
   Originally Posted by Fandarin

   Most games are, I imagine, private. Which makes sense, however I do think Larian really dropped the ball when it comes to provide a social hub for GMs to find players.
3. Here I agree, bit I think it is also the communities responsibility to provide a social hub. I personally would also prefer just to have to private group of our RL friends and former private NWN LAN sessions but - as you know my ol' Fandarin - they all became lawyers and composers and it is really hard to get a shared time together. Therefore it would be nice to have Modes / Games running with people from the net you just could join when you have time. And to not have random stuff we need a way to have lists and better decriptions of Server (Like RP-GERMAN-short description)
   
   plus +++ a dedicated server (and database a la NWNX) running a campaign constantly where players and GMs could hop in and out. This could also have unintended but exciting playmodes. I don't think about classical PWs a la NWN (that started even pre WOW) but something new, where a bigger player base and GMs - of course only 4+1 at a time (hey Larian some more than 4 please) - could participate dynamically in a world and build and change it over time. [Just an brain storm idea)
   
   Ar least we need easier ways of changing importing and exporting player characters and players for same running campaign
   
   
   
   Originally Posted by Fandarin

   [...] but they forgot the activity that happends arround the table while playing live.
4. This could, as you suggest, simply increased by text bubbles, custom scripting mods and other things players could do while paused game; for example by something i suggested earlier in the forums like a camera object the GM could place and change the view of the players, while having the GM kind if semi paused, lets say characters are immobile but still can text chat and perform emotes. I am not asking a supplement to vignettes, which are fine imho, but a complement. Genereally, there is still a lot of potential.

my 2 humble cents; sorry for the text wall


Edit: to answer orignal topoc question: here is nothing to save. I think the tools a great. But if you ask if there could be still done a lot - by Larian and community - then i think certainly yes.

I'm not sure about any dwindling forum activity, but as for myself I mostly look around on the forums. I don't update my creation posts on a daily basis because I don't want to bump threads if there's no neccesity for it. As for the GM mode? It's freaking amazing in my humble opinion, and the editor? I enjoy it for what it is.

If you want to create your very own campaign and with maps, then you simply have to put the work into it. Making maps, and campaigns is something I do for the sake of my own campaign, which I play with friends. But also out of endearment for Larian Studios.

@Morez NwN 1 was always round based 1 round = 6 seconds or in NwN terms onHeartbeat(); but that is beside the point.
I am not arguring the superiority of Devinity itself in terms of ruleset and gameplay, I'm just saying the GM Mode is too restrictive. We are talking from two different perpectives. You are more the modder/artists where my point of view comes from a storyteller/designer. You are happy with a big bad powerfull toolset where you can sink hours into making one area that might be used for a story one day. Steril maps will never replace the flexibility of tilesets where I can use a certain astetic and style but mold it to needs of my story very quickly.

NWN 2 was a good example. Yes the modders and artists rejoiced, look I can set up to six layers of textures, I can put up to 9 dynamic light sources I can import greyscale maps, weee pretty looking mountains. All fine, but it took 10 times more time to get one area finished. Some, even most people are more intrested in telling a story or set up nice gameplay than creating an incredible looking scene, they might be impressed but they don't necessarily want to put 15-20 hours just for one area.
If you look at the most successfull mods for NWN 1 & 2 you will see there were all mods that made telling or creating a story easier.

I'm not going to talk about the PW communities where I spend most of my time ( and fyi no pause button there^^) but I'm going to talk about neverwinterconnections.com
A community set out to connect Game Masters with players. Huge success. Why? Because it took very little time in the toolset to make areas. Some Game Masters would play 3 to 4 different campaigns in a week. When NwN 2 was released it literally died because everything took too much time to set up. The Playerbase moved on, which was a shame.


Back to Devinity. The ruleset is better, the gameplay is better , the design is better and I love it. What Devinity needs, especially in regards of the GM Mode, is a social hub. Something to connect players with eachother. Something similar to the Social hub Gamespy had in NwN 1. I haven't logged in for awhile, does global chat work now?
What the GM Mode needs is chat bubbles a functioning chat window where not the profilenames but the characters names are displayed and the NPC Name the GM is possessing. There was a nifty mod for NwN 1 that would display everything you wrote between two * as an emote in a different color, that would be nice.
Why not use voicechat? Well, sometimes you don't get people who want to use voicechat because they are shy. Especially during EU TZ.
Beeing able to paint or place prescripted triggers (again an area where scripting gets quite important) for traps or puzzles I created in the Engine, but maybe I want to place them on the fly during my campaign.

Larian did everything for modders and artists now they have to focus a little more on storytellers. A multplayer feature only works if you actually have an active playerbase. If Devinity didn't have the GM Mode it wouldn't matter that much. People always browse their single player games to try out a mod. Uninstall it reinstall it after a couple of months, check the steamworkshop etc. With this mode you need more that one returing player and that makes it so difficult. I had wonderfull hours using the GM Mode, as a GM and as a player, but the shortcommings became quite obvious very soon and I fear they might loose the window of opportunity here.


Btw morez off topic: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/11/21/neverwinter-nights-enhanced-edition-date/
I might get back into world building

Such as?
The very important being able to ceate a new NPC or monster on the fly?
Or maybe just as important add a new area to the game on the fly?
And of course the incredible power to create a new item on the fly?

I stongly have to disagree.
The unmodded NwN Client could barely do anything at all except for working with content that was allready present in the module.

Maps create in NwN are just as sterile as maps created with the DOS2 engine. And if you are happy with the barren empty visuals of NwN, rest asured, with the DoS2 engine you can create maps very quickly in any style and they will still look way better than NwN ever did.

Hello!
First, thank you all for walls of text - its pleasure to read them and hear a feedback from people using our GM Mode.
Second, there are a social hub, unofficial yet, but pretty decent one which includes gmm rooms and lfg requests:

https://discord.gg/23adBs
https://www.reddit.com/r/DivinityGameMaster/

I purchased D:OS2 solely for GM Mode because as an avid D&D GM I was excited about the prospect of having such a strong, versatile visual medium to play a tabletop-like game. I had a long-ish running D&D actual play podcast that ended abruptly, so my plan was to turn it into a Twitch stream using D:OS2. After one session/stream, my players were unable to join the session due to a bug and we didn't play or stream.

Two weeks later, the bug has been fixed, yet I still had to jump through hoop after hoop to make the game work. Twice during that session, while live on Twitch, our game crashed unexpectedly. Not only is this frustrating, but it is really embarrassing when you're playing live for an audience. The crashes were a result of mods made in Divinity Engine 2.

My longwinded point here is that after so much excitement and enthusiasm, the repeated issues with trying to run GM Mode have completely turned me off to the game as a whole. For 6 weeks after launch, I spent 5-6 hours a night working in the editor, preparing my campaign, and organizing my stream. For two weeks now, I haven't opened the game once. To answer the original question: yes, GM Mode needs to be saved. As it stands, for me to run an effective campaign the way I envisioned requires far too much troubleshooting and bouts of frustration. Until significant improvements are made to this mode, I am just unwilling to put any more effort into it.

And yes, I know that any time you mod a game you run the risk of problems. My frustration stems from the repeated mentions from Larian during pre-launch promotion that Game Masters can create their own mods to tune GM Mode to their liking, and then finding that mods (btw I'm only using 2-3 at the most; almost entirely cosmetic at that) cause continuous issues, errors, and crashes until I just don't want to deal with it anymore.

Yes. Please save GM Mode.

I would not be surprised if this "almost entirely cosmetic" is causing the issues. GM Mode was never intended to support any kind of "scripting".
I have been running an ongoing campaign since launch and the only issues I've been experiencing are to blame on my internet connection, or the connection of one of my players.
I avoid all scripting except for simple wander scripts and teleports and everything works just fine.

GM Mode could use some expanding upon, emotes and more monsters come to mind, but so far everything has been a blast and I am pretty sure will continue to be so for many years to come.