Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) Suggestions An Idea for pre-release bug squashing

These games are so complex now, that finding all of those nasty bugs is almost impossible until the fan-base gets ahold of the game. Seems like every company is going through a pulling-their-hair-out phase after release. Maybe a new tactic is possible.

My suggestion is that, just before the game goes gold, an offer to pre-purchase the game is made. People who buy the game under this pre-release offer will know that they are getting the game early as a kind of Beta test. The people selected in this phase will be charged for the game of course, and will have a week or so to extensively play the game and report all problems to a Tester-Only page on the forum. This group of people should have a forum page where they can discuss the issues with each other and share information to get to the end of the game. I think many of the die-hard Divinity fans would welcome the idea to participate in this Beta test. All that this group would have to do after the game is released is download a final patch.

The game might be delayed a couple of weeks for general release, but the vast majority of problems should be gone by the time the release is made. I understand that there would be a fear about piracy, but either having the game downloadable only to the purchasers IP address, or encoding a CD with their IP address might eliminate that fear.

This is a common and necessary phase in On-line games, and seems like it is time to expand it to all PC games.

sounds interesting however i fear that it will end up being exactly what happens in beta-tested mmorpg's.. people still moan as if the game is the final retail version even though they know its beta.

most large companies have no problem keeping the game(s) 99.9% bug free..

you have remember a company liek blizzard for instance, can delay a game for another 6 months without having to worry aobut bills, where as smaller companies are on a game to game basis and really do have to worry about how long they delay a game.. i dont know how larian fits in here.. but i wouldnt be suprised if they just cant sit on the game to long without having problems with money..

this is also why having a good publisher can help.. the large publishers have QA departments as well (though, i have never heard of a publishers QA department being anywhere as good as the inhouse QA, due to the inhouse's familiarity with the game, and amount of time they spend testing it..) .. plus the ability to support the company if they need to delay for a certain amount of time to clear any major bugs..

i think the biggest problem thus far for BD is that some of the patches created newer and bigger bugs.. i played for a while under 1.32 and had no problems.. i saw some of the bugs.. but nothing that effect gameplay (no crashes, or anything of the like.. just like, mislabled items.. which i can deal with..) .. but it seemed that with 1.41 and 1.43 now they have brought in some major problems..

currently i am plaing 1.40 and having no problem... sure some mislabled items.. (bone spear i think still looks liek a ring.. ) but no crashing or anything like that..

just high-demand for new patches and they get rushed i think.. and not 100% tested for QA..

Just so you know, we had the latest patch (1.43) tested by a number of players for days, and did find potential bugs before releasing it. Every time we find a bug in the new patch, the bug has to be fixed, the patch has to be redone, reinstalled and re-tested.

Unfortunately, as Grim said, the sheer vastness and complexity of a game like Beyond Divinity might make the game interesting/replayable, but indeed causes the fact that we may miss some different approaches players have been taking. No matter how manifest a bug may seem to one player, the other player might never come across it... So, yes, you guys (and your savegames) are very valuable at the moment...

That's true, I thought at first how come so many bugs are being reported that I haven't seen...bugs are strange things, you might have an item in your inventory that no one else bothered to pick up (salt barrel - don't ask me why I did it) and because that's there clicking on a door might cause a crash, you just never can tell!!!!

ps. not a real error, just an example of the mad diveristy that can happen, like someones real bug about the pepper shaker!

I think there is a fairly vast problem with trying find bugs... on controlled computers, you might never find a certain bug, only to release the game and find a million and one bugs, due to the fact the all of a sudden the game has to cope with not only different hardware profiles, but various levels of windows updates (or lack there of), various levels of already corrupted windows installations (isnt windows notorious for just getting itself corrupted and broken in no time at all? - and unfortunately there comes enduser problems too... especially those who install everything they find on the internet... )

What i think would also be valuable, is to have some of the testing information available to the prublic.. e.g. what windows updates we present during testing - since the game still interact with some windows variable files and libraries,

Another idea might be to make the game check the version of libraries or necsesary updates during installation and add them if needed.

I dont know if it is just me, but since i test a lot of online games (or at least have to troubleshoot them - since i host online gaming sessions a lot), i find that there are a couple of things that make computer gaming more stable in general (other than the antivirus factor).

1. removing general spyware from the computer - they change some libraries and just add to the amount of headaches in general - a decent remover that i found is "Spybot search and destroy" http://www.safer-networking.org/index.php?page=download

2. Installing the game related updates from microsoft, Microsoft Knowledge Base (KB) Article 327979. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...ad24-6a4d1c5df8ff&displaylang=en


Also SafeDisc Windows XP Fix (even though they say its only for microsoft games, it fixes this problem in quite a large amount of other games too
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...84ce-1df707d7a2e9&displaylang=en

I know i have a completely different view to game debugging, but sometimes you need to debug the computer FIRST and then see what bugs are left!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />

As for Grim's idea of pre-release testing, it defenately has some good points in it, it will expose the game to quite a lot of uncontrolled computers, and give the company the change to immunize the game against a lot of small little "computer bugs" too that will affect the game.

But i think the idea of pre-selling should be refined a bit, before it can come into action...

Yes let the pre-testers buy the game (at normal rate, or a slightly reduced rate), but the testers should be screened.... not anyone will qualify to test the game.

Throw in a bonus of once the game is 99.9% bug free, or when the game goes gold, to get the new and final copy of the game (that you have already paid for)

The advantage that large companies have with beta testing, is that they have sooo many more computers to test it on, and also they have their registered beta testers (working on various more computers running in various stages of software-decay).

If the issue of copy protection is a big issue, write a fatal bug in the program, so that it will not function after a certain date - i know its not fool proof, but there is soo many combinations of protection that you can add, as with the final product. In anycase, if someone WANTS to re-produce a game they will, state of the art protection or not. Then let it rather be the beta, which has no support on it (other than when it is in beta stage). The person that comes to a forum with beta problems, are invited to run into as many brick walls as he/she wants to.

To sum it up, i think grim has a very brilliant idea. If that idea gets refined, it will make finding bugs a LOT easier and more complete.

I would also love to make the "debug your computer" idea more public, but since people love to rather point fingers at the developer... this is a more difficult point...

ROFL! Same here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I had to laugh when I read that, because in fact I picked it up too, from the kitchen in Act1. I though: "Hey, it's a barrel of salt... and it doesn't weigh a thing!". I've been carrying it around all the way through Act2, but I still don't really know why :P

*Ahem*

Sorry... Please: Do continue, gentlemen.

One flaw I can see is liability. Most companies, when releasing software early, be it for beta or other reasons, are often worried about information on related to the software being published prior to the public release. Sure, these early releases often come with an NDA (non-disclosure agreement), but it's not that hard for someone to hide behind a forum username and leak. Leaks of pre-release bugs can really bring down release day figures and no company wants that,

At the same time, semi-public final betas are a good way to identify trustworthy testers for primary betas and possibly job recruitment <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />
PS: The salt barrel has a purpose in act one. It plays a role in completing the act with an added EXP bonus <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

like i said before, not all companies have the resources to be able to fully test a game.. they do what they can, but they do have very important deadlines to reach.. especially young companies that havnt made tons on major hits yet..

my guess is larian works somewhat game-to-game still .. you have to remember, that if the game takes 2 years to make, thats 2 years they are making 0 profit.. all the computers, servers to pay for, rent, utilities, paychecks.. it adds up.. for a bigger company thats been around longer, or for a young company that has already had a major hit (look at valve.. major hit in half-life and they can afford to twiddle thier thumbs with halflife 2 and take as long as they have to really get it to the place they want it to be, due to the fact they have alot of money reinvested into HL2 from HL1, as well as alot of support from publishers)..

about early releases to certain people, they already do that.. they have alpha and beta testing.. depending on the games (large beta testing usually with multiplayer games) most companys carry a small QA team during the creation process, and as they get closer to a playable game, they bring on more, and depending on the size of the company, the amount of QA/playtesters go up..

and i dont know about larian specifically, but at least other game companies do test thier game on other machines, with other hardware/software.. how do you think they know the minimum requirements? with most games they do tests with ATI vs Nvidea cards.. to see if it runs well with both.. you will see that alot will lean one way or the other based on what they used while testing.. certain errors may no pop up on an ati card, that would be caught on a nvidea card..

personally, i dont mind it.. id be angry if larian wasnt releasing working patches on a steady basis, but they are.. sure some errors.. but they are working through it..

its all about $$ people..

look at how they sold DD for $20, build up a market for thier name, and then release BD for $40.. hey, neither have multiplayer,and BD doesnt really offer more playing time than DD (i think it does, but if DD were already 40, it wouldnt warrant making BD 80, or even 60..).. its smart they did that if they sold half a million coppies of DD and, then half a mil of BD, they just made twice as much money on BD with the same amount of owrk.. but it was DD being cheaper that i think got some people to try it out.. was well worth 40, but fo rmost people who looked at it, they have no clue what larian is, or what divine divinity is (and for some the name was just to goofy).. but as i did, and others i know, it was a great game that i/we enjoyed.. so i bought BD as well.. more money to larian.. this may mean thier next game is more bug free, or may mean the next game will have modern graphics (lol sorry.. 2d is getting old.. they do a great job with what they have though)

Not here (Belgium)... I got <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> for a lot less money than <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />, both early after their release

Personally, I believe that testers are needed with *different* approaches.

I mean that most people use the "highway of thinking", main steeets, but Bugs occuur rather often then people use the side-ways, narrow lanes of deception, so to say. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

And people doing things that look just plain weird or unligical - well these points are those mostly untested, I think, becuse everyone's using the highways. And untested ares re rather filled ith bugs than not, I guess.

Well, I don't know if I've made my self clear (and understandable), but basically I mean that we need testers with different approaches towards a game. Diversity, so to say.

I got BD as a gift, but it was around 35 or so.

Ok.... here is my question to ponder on.....

If smaller companies are generally thought to not beta test their software extensively... then where does Microsoft come in????

They release their software when it is only 80% tested... (C'mon!!!!! if any game came with a FULL 20% of the game being pure bugs, that company would NEVER survive....

On that note, i dont think Larian has done a bad job at all.... their games are pretty solid on my computers. (but then again, i keep my operating systems bug free too and keep them spyware free)

SO far i found <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" />brilliant in the sense that i can alt-tab out of it, remove the CD, burn CD's while my game is paused, then just put my play disc back and carry on.... most other games have a HUGE problem with things like that....

And i am not far enough into the game yet to talk about further game bugs... but as for stability, i think they did a good job.

Well, Microsoft is special, because we all rely on their OS, except those users of other OSses (funny word ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> ) .

So I think they must be especially careful - which they aren't (Sasser).

On the other hand, I admit that there is a *huge* amount of complexity involved ...

Microsoft is strange... I don't think they really care. Also, I personally dislike that company very much so. (Must refrain myself from using stronger language).

I don't use anything else from Microsoft than the OS. Happend to do so - Office didn't come with my PC (I decided the components <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> ) and is still quite expensive ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

i dont understand where you got that 80% value from..

if your talking about thier OS and other major apps.. well you need to realize that they are much larger than a game, especially with an OS, and the amount of time you could spend testing it is probably about 10 times as much.. thats why they have live update features as well as built in bug alert apps so you can let them know what you are encountering..

if your talking about the games that microsoft releases, then you wrong, microsoft publishes games, they dont make them. they may do some QA, but its not nearly to the same level that a gaem company would do it at.. if the game company fails to detect large amounts of bugs, there is no way they can rely on thier publisher to do it for them.

about the post saying they test only on the "highways".. at least in most cases i dont think this is true.. they do try to test it all from different ways.. and try to do things that they may not normally do.. i dont know where they have gone wrong with BD, but ithink one area is in quest sequencing and placing it into your quest diary.. there are alot of errors when you have the item already, or have already done the quest, but the npc/game does not recognize it unelss you do some other sequence of events like dropping the item, or tryign to retrigger the even.. there are also some errors when you acquire a new quest, and it doesnt correctly update your diary.. most of these seem to happen when you have already begun the quest, without knowing there was actually a quest for it.. (like you go kill some monster, but there is a quest to kill him)..

Microsoft might makke games in the future ... haven't they bought the ddevelopers of Halo and Bioware as well ?

If you compare microsoft's OS with any other Os, be it MAC, be it Linux, Unix, Sun, (make your pic), and you compare the stability of it, put all those OS through the same type of attacks.. load the same software on it, try and hack the same things on it,

To come up with that figure of 80%, a group of hackers (the same group that notified Microsoft 1 year before MS blast finally struck that there is a very dangerous flaw in their coding, but got ignored for over a year), set the task of putting the different OS's through the same tests, they tried to hack all of them, at various levels, attempted to crash the system by command only on all of them..... they just did a major load of tests and stuff on it all...

They came up with the figures of stability of all the OS's

There was no OS that rated 100% they all fell over at some point...

Unix lasted longest, Linux and Sun close behind it... guess who the loser was...

Windows XP only for a 67% rating on stability... after SP1 it rated 77%... after all the patches were loaded up to date (at the time of testing), it got 79% and at the time XP wa already over a year old. so according to me, 80% is a compliment of a figure.

Yes an OS is a big thing to test, but if other OS's can come close to 95% with no updates loaded, then i think Microsoft is VERY VERY slack with their coding...

Its also very interesting that most viruses and worms are ONLY attacking microsoft, the other OS's seem to be immune to them./....

So make up your own mind about what you think of microsoft, personally, i love them to pieces... the more the BETTER.